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(CHI / ARI) - Krüger, Entwistle, Maletta, Campbell for Hossa, Hinostroza, Oesterle

Who won the trade?
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Jul. 12, 2018 at 5:14 p.m.
#26
exo2769
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@Hockeyplayer1 Here's where the one issue might be. Long term. Yes after day 1...etc... You're 110% right. What about after the next off season? Are you then forced into a Sharp/Bickell trade for year 2 day 1. Not saying this trade isn't terrible because it is, but curious if you know.
Jul. 12, 2018 at 5:16 p.m.
#27
get ur corsi up
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Solid move for both teams.

Have to wonder when Chayka is going to stop taking dumps and start utilizing his cap space towards winning.
Jul. 12, 2018 at 5:18 p.m.
#28
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@exo2769 They can just continue to use Hossa offseason LTIR season after season. Using offseason LTIR makes in season transfers (send downs/waivers/recalls) more complicated/difficult but doesn't completely handicap a team. Toronto did it the past 3 seasons with Lupul and Horton.
Jul. 12, 2018 at 6:16 p.m.
#29
I'm a Skatman
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Quoting: Daryl
Solid move for both teams.

Have to wonder when Chayka is going to stop taking dumps and start utilizing his cap space towards winning.


he's doing the right thing though. I liked a quote from him back then: he wants to pay players for what they're going to do, not for what they have done already (it was about letting Vrbata go to FA). he doesn't want to pick up the big names in UFA - which is the way to go, unless you can land Tavares (which you simply can't as Arizona). passing up on the likes of Eriksson, Lucic, Stastny, Backes etc pp is the RIGHT move. they're going to use the cap space on their own players once they developed and make shrewd UFA pickups like Grabner along the way. it's a model that will pay it's dividends sooner or later.
Jul. 12, 2018 at 6:23 p.m.
#30
get ur corsi up
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Quoting: Barathrum_Obama
he's doing the right thing though. I liked a quote from him back then: he wants to pay players for what they're going to do, not for what they have done already (it was about letting Vrbata go to FA). he doesn't want to pick up the big names in UFA - which is the way to go, unless you can land Tavares (which you simply can't as Arizona). passing up on the likes of Eriksson, Lucic, Stastny, Backes etc pp is the RIGHT move. they're going to use the cap space on their own players once they developed and make shrewd UFA pickups like Grabner along the way. it's a model that will pay it's dividends sooner or later.


It's true that the key to building a contender is through the draft. Signing the big names often handcuffs your team sooner or later.

Hossa's contract is pretty long though and Arizona's got several big names approaching RFA, also factor in the recent OEL signing and it may get tight. Then again, Hossa can be put onto the LTIR, so we'll see how it works out.
Jul. 12, 2018 at 6:26 p.m.
#31
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Quoting: Daryl
It's true that the key to building a contender is through the draft. Signing the big names often handcuffs your team sooner or later.

Hossa's contract is pretty long though and Arizona's got several big names approaching RFA, also factor in the recent OEL signing and it may get tight. Then again, Hossa can be put onto the LTIR, so we'll see how it works out.


with the Bolland contract expiring, they're probably playing this game exactly as long as they can. from a managing standpoint, they're doing fine. all that's missing is the players actually developing into players that NEED to be paid and that's something Chayka can't do.
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Jul. 12, 2018 at 6:48 p.m.
#32
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Didn't think of the fact that Chicago doesn't get much cap space as they're getting Kruger in this deal.
Jul. 12, 2018 at 7:46 p.m.
#33
exo2769
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Quoting: Hockeyplayer1
@exo2769 They can just continue to use Hossa offseason LTIR season after season. Using offseason LTIR makes in season transfers (send downs/waivers/recalls) more complicated/difficult but doesn't completely handicap a team. Toronto did it the past 3 seasons with Lupul and Horton.


Yes, but that makes it harder to sign a duchenne or skinnier or panarin long term because you need contracts rolling off each yeah...again whole premise I'm with ya, but curious about a nuanced question.
Jul. 12, 2018 at 8:08 p.m.
#34
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Edited Jul. 12, 2018 at 8:14 p.m.
meh, nothing exciting going on here. Lateral moves, cap swapping and a slight pick upgrade for AZ.
Jul. 13, 2018 at 7:35 a.m.
#35
hey look a squirrel
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Nooooooo.

Why Arizona help Chicago with cap space!
Jul. 13, 2018 at 10:31 a.m.
#36
Below Market Value
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Quoting: HawksFan28
I could care less what they add, it wouldn't take much more... Perhaps a 2nd..

The rumors are already out there, Chicago and Montreal have a good relationship, Habs need a center Hawks need a left winger - Patches wants nothing to do with Montreal..... Makes too much sense.

Patches is a UFA.... The acquisition of Patches would open the door for Bowman to sign Panarin, Schmaltz & DeBrincat to long-term deals next summer..


Kinda like how Bowman was supposed to sign JVR, trade peanuts for Hjalmarsson, and draft Wahlstrom and automatically slot him into the top six?
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Jul. 13, 2018 at 10:43 a.m.
#37
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Quoting: exo2769
Yes, but that makes it harder to sign a duchenne or skinnier or panarin long term because you need contracts rolling off each yeah...again whole premise I'm with ya, but curious about a nuanced question.


What i'm saying is that it really doesn't. They can go over the cap by Hossa's cap hit. Its essentially the same as if he's not on the roster except it makes in season moves more difficult. It does not stop them from signing players in the offseason.
Jul. 13, 2018 at 10:52 a.m.
#38
exo2769
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Quoting: Hockeyplayer1
What i'm saying is that it really doesn't. They can go over the cap by Hossa's cap hit. Its essentially the same as if he's not on the roster except it makes in season moves more difficult. It does not stop them from signing players in the offseason.


yeah, but day 1...each season...they need to be cap compliant. So Bowman moves players down to Rockford this year or simply be under the cap...easy enough this year. With that said...Let's say you trade AND EXTEND a Skinner or Patches (now OR middle of year after Hossa's contract is easier to take on)...That extension COULD (not necessarily would) be an issue day 1 for next year. CHI still needs to be cap compliant day 1 of next year. So now Bowman is reliant of other contracts rolling off the books while at the same time needing to extend Schmaltz prior to the season started...summary being A Skinner/Patches extention, Schmaltz, and Hossa's contract would all need to fit day 1 next year...and that's probably not going to work...I'm guessing right now. Again, I'm with you that it was an overpayment.

For the record, just having a convo...not trying to be mean or argumentative. Just chatting.
Jul. 13, 2018 at 12:07 p.m.
#39
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Edited Jul. 13, 2018 at 12:20 p.m.
Quoting: exo2769
yeah, but day 1...each season...they need to be cap compliant. So Bowman moves players down to Rockford this year or simply be under the cap...easy enough this year. With that said...Let's say you trade AND EXTEND a Skinner or Patches (now OR middle of year after Hossa's contract is easier to take on)...That extension COULD (not necessarily would) be an issue day 1 for next year. CHI still needs to be cap compliant day 1 of next year. So now Bowman is reliant of other contracts rolling off the books while at the same time needing to extend Schmaltz prior to the season started...summary being A Skinner/Patches extention, Schmaltz, and Hossa's contract would all need to fit day 1 next year...and that's probably not going to work...I'm guessing right now. Again, I'm with you that it was an overpayment.

For the record, just having a convo...not trying to be mean or argumentative. Just chatting.


You're misunderstanding the "offseason LTIR". The Hawks don't need to be cap compliant to start the season with Hossa contract. They need to be cap compliant with everyone's cap hit except Hossa's. The Hawks would receive cap relief for the amount they are over the cap to start the season, say 4M over the cap. The Hawks would then for the entire season get a non-adjustable 4M cap relief/"extension". This number for Hossa's LTIR doesn't change throughout the entire season.

There are 2 ways to utilize LTIR. The first is offseason or season opening LTIR and the second is in-season LTIR. The Hawks went with the second route last year because it allows for greater flexibility throughout the season. Hossa's LTIR cap relief is flexible throughout the year up to $5.257M. So they built a roster that was below the cap with Hossa to start the season and then placed him on LTIR. They could call up whoever they needed to fill the roster and signed Franson. Let's just say they ended up 4M over after these moves. They can still utilize the $1.275M more relief that comes with Hossa's contract because in this scenario its flexible up to his cap hit.

BUT they could use season opening LTIR which allows them to use Hossa's cap space during the offseason but is more restrictive during the season.

I know, I am too. There seems to be a lot of real confusion how LTIR fully works. I'm a nerd and have read the CBA a few times to fully understand how it all works.
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Jul. 13, 2018 at 1:02 p.m.
#40
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To all of those that can't comprehend how bad this trade was let's compare similar trades in the past where the Coyotes took on a big contract for another team.

Chris Pronger Trade:
To Arizona - Chris Pronger ($7.5M) and Nicklas Grossman ($3.5M)
To Philly - Sam Gagner (3.2) and 3rd round pick.
Grossman, 31, would go on to play 58 games for Arizona on the 3rd pairing and retire the next season. Gagner, 24, coming off a 41 point season would continue to be a point producer in the league and just signed a 3 year $9.5M contract.
Philly got $7.8M in cap space, likely the better player, and a 3rd round pick.

Pavel Datsyuk Trade:
To Arizona - Pavel Datsyuk ($7.5M) and 2016 16th OA.
To Detroit - 2016 20th OA draft pick and 2016 53rd OA draft pick
Detroit got $7.5M in cap space moved down 4 spots in the 1st round AND got the 53rd pick too.

Dave Bolland Trade:
To Arizona - Dave Bolland ($5.5M) and Lawson Crouse.
To Florida - 2018 34th OA and 2017 66th OA.
Florida got $5.5M in cap space but gave up a good prospect in Crouse. However they also got a very very early 2nd round pick and a 3rd round pick.

Marian Hossa Trade:
To Arizona - Marian Hossa ($5.275M), Vinnie Hinostroza ($1.5M), Jordan Oesterle ($.65M), AND 2019 3rd round pick
To Chicago - Marcus Kruger ($2.775M), Mackenzie Entwistle, Jordan Maletta, Andrew Campbell, and 2019 5th Round pick.
Chicago gets $4M in cap space (ignoring Oesterle because he can be completely buried), Marcus Kruger a 4th line center, an OK prospect in Entwistle, an undrafted .26 PPG AHL player, a LEFT HANDED AHL D-man plug (hawks already have 6 AHL LHD D-men under contract), and a 5th round pick.
BUT they gave up a .96 PPG in the AHL and .5 PPG in the NHL player on a $1.5M contract, and a 20+ minute per night D-man on a league minimum contract.
STAN BOWMAN even gave up the HIGHER DRAFT PICK in this trade.

To recap:
Hossa, Hinostroza, Oesterle
Kruger (who we gave up for free and could have had off waivers in may), 5th
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Jul. 13, 2018 at 1:31 p.m.
#41
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The Blackhawks fans who think that all these cap dump trades are great for are absolutely ridiculous. The players that this team has traded away due to poor cap management is insane. NIck Leddy, Dustin Byfuglien, Teuvo Teravainen, Patrick Sharp, Artemi Panarin, Niklas Hjalmarsson, the list goes on and on. Now Hinostroza is gone, and this is a team that needs depth scoring. And the talk about getting Pacioretty or Skinner is nice, but then what happens when you have to pay Schmaltz and Debrincat, but can't afford to keep whoever you trade for long term? Plus what are you going to give up for one of those guys? Dip into the prospect pool which is already thin? It's not like you have anymore young NHLers to trade away, so you're just trading first rounders and the prospects you've accumulated over the past year. All that to still be no better than the fourth best in the division? Makes no sense to me. Accept the fact that the glory days are over. The championship core doesn't have the supporting cast to get it done again. And when you have guys with the potential to help out like Hinostroza, Teravainen, etc, they get traded because they have a bad contract to unload. And then you trade Panarin for Saad? I don't care if Panarin is going to walk in two years, I'd rather have two years of Panarin than six years of Saad. Hjalmarsson for Murphy? That's a completely pointless deal, less than 1M in cap relief and a huge downgrade on defense. It's poor cap management and idiotic trades that leads Chicago to the point where they are now.

This team needs at least one top six winger, a top pairing defenseman, and some more secondary scoring to be a legit contender. These are still their needs after signing Brandon Manning, Cam Ward and Chris Kunitz for a total of about $6.2M for this season. Now that they freed up about between $4-5M in space, there are no free agents left to fill one of their huge holes. There are no top pairing defensemen available for trade right now, so where does that leave them? Trading for a one year rental of Pacioretty or Skinner, and then they have to make more cap dump trades because they can't keep everybody, STILL. It's nuts that fans think this team is in a good spot right now. I can honestly say that they're one of the organizations furthest away from a championship.
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Jul. 13, 2018 at 2:20 p.m.
#42
exo2769
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Quoting: Hockeyplayer1
You're misunderstanding the "offseason LTIR". The Hawks don't need to be cap compliant to start the season with Hossa contract. They need to be cap compliant with everyone's cap hit except Hossa's. The Hawks would receive cap relief for the amount they are over the cap to start the season, say 4M over the cap. The Hawks would then for the entire season get a non-adjustable 4M cap relief/"extension". This number for Hossa's LTIR doesn't change throughout the entire season.

There are 2 ways to utilize LTIR. The first is offseason or season opening LTIR and the second is in-season LTIR. The Hawks went with the second route last year because it allows for greater flexibility throughout the season. Hossa's LTIR cap relief is flexible throughout the year up to $5.257M. So they built a roster that was below the cap with Hossa to start the season and then placed him on LTIR. They could call up whoever they needed to fill the roster and signed Franson. Let's just say they ended up 4M over after these moves. They can still utilize the $1.275M more relief that comes with Hossa's contract because in this scenario its flexible up to his cap hit.

BUT they could use season opening LTIR which allows them to use Hossa's cap space during the offseason but is more restrictive during the season.

I know, I am too. There seems to be a lot of real confusion how LTIR fully works. I'm a nerd and have read the CBA a few times to fully understand how it all works.


It's not really a misunderstanding of the two situations. I agree with what you're saying. I'm just implying (right or wrong) that having flexibility during the next two seasons is important. It might not be. They could LTIR him in the offseason. Maybe moving people up/down isn't as big a deal as I'm making it. Maybe it is.
Jul. 13, 2018 at 2:47 p.m.
#43
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In comparison to the Mason - Armia trade, I think the Hawks did better than the Jets. They traded a considerably worse contract for just slightly more value. I’m not sure if they necessarily win the trade, but they at did do better than the Jets.
Jul. 13, 2018 at 2:57 p.m.
#44
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Quoting: MrBooth
Just give up @HawksFan28. Chicago isn’t going to f-ing contend anytime soon. Leave the fantasy world you’re currently living in


HawksFan earlier this spiring said the Coyotes would trade their first rounder to the Hawks to obtain Hossa, just so Arizona could reach the cap floor. Admitting his "baby" of Hossa turned true, but it was the Hawks giving up assets. Hawks take on the 3m Kruger for year and the Coyotes pay out of pocket the uninsured part of Hossa contract 1m for three years.
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Jul. 13, 2018 at 3:00 p.m.
#45
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Quoting: Hockeyplayer1
@exo2769 They can just continue to use Hossa offseason LTIR season after season. Using offseason LTIR makes in season transfers (send downs/waivers/recalls) more complicated/difficult but doesn't completely handicap a team. Toronto did it the past 3 seasons with Lupul and Horton.


The only real effect an LTIR will have, it when a team has to pay it's bonuses performance. That's more of nuisance than a real direct cap hit. Leafs would prefer to get rid of Horton (they can't) mostly because of the large bonuses are being paid for players on their ELCs.
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Jul. 13, 2018 at 3:06 p.m.
#46
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Quoting: EthanK24
In comparison to the Mason - Armia trade, I think the Hawks did better than the Jets. They traded a considerably worse contract for just slightly more value. I’m not sure if they necessarily win the trade, but they at did do better than the Jets.


Agree with you and then Montreal was on the hook for the buyout $$$$ for Mason. I wonder with the Habs wanted to get Armia a Fin, so he could keep the # 1 pick the Finnish centre "company"
Jul. 13, 2018 at 7:56 p.m.
#47
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Quoting: HawksFan28
I could care less what they add, it wouldn't take much more... Perhaps a 2nd..

The rumors are already out there, Chicago and Montreal have a good relationship, Habs need a center Hawks need a left winger - Patches wants nothing to do with Montreal..... Makes too much sense.

Patches is a UFA.... The acquisition of Patches would open the door for Bowman to sign Panarin, Schmaltz & DeBrincat to long-term deals next summer..


Does MTL need top 6 centers? yes. Does MTL need Middle 6 centers like Anisimov (who will only get into younger Habs centers way for the next 3 years of his contract)? Nope!

Picks and prospects will do just fine now thank you very much. nod
Jul. 16, 2018 at 12:05 a.m.
#48
GO PENGUINS GO!
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WOOHOO GO Yotes GO!! My 3rd Favorite Team!!
Jul. 16, 2018 at 3:16 p.m.
#49
Emotionally in 2018
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@HawksFan28 if Hossa's contract could just simply go on LTIR like you've been saying, why did this trade go down?

I can't wait to see you hide from the forums here when Chicago craps the bed AGAIN this year. You were wrong, admit it. This is the worst team in the division on paper. The worst. But they're going to hit 100 points, right? They're going to be legit contenders in the West, right? You crack me up sometimes.
Jul. 16, 2018 at 8:18 p.m.
#50
HawksFan28
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Quoting: krakowitz
@HawksFan28 if Hossa's contract could just simply go on LTIR like you've been saying, why did this trade go down?

I can't wait to see you hide from the forums here when Chicago craps the bed AGAIN this year. You were wrong, admit it. This is the worst team in the division on paper. The worst. But they're going to hit 100 points, right? They're going to be legit contenders in the West, right? You crack me up sometimes.


It could have gone on LTIR.......The entire situation is explained IN DETAIL here: http://lastwordonhockey.com/2018/07/06/marian-hossa-contract-and-its-affect-on-chicago-blackhawks-roster-moves/

"LTIR Questions
The ability for a team to use the LTIR is a given. Most believe that the team does not get cap relief during the off-season. This is why fans were only told that the Blackhawks had $9 million plus in cap space available instead of nearly $15 million factoring in the Hossa contract. In reality, NHL teams do have LTIR cap relief during the off-season. This was proven last season by the Toronto Maple Leafs.

The previous use of LTIR by the Leafs has bordered on creative “Shenanigan’s” to say the least. Check this out from Arvind from S.B. Nation:

So, James Mirtle of The Athletic dropped a bit of a bomb on everyone on Tuesday afternoon, when he wrote an article arguing that the Leafs are not actually up against the cap. His argument is that LTIR can be used in the offseason, and he quotes NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly as evidence.

“Yes, they can,” Daly said when asked if teams were permitted to access additional cap room in this fashion long before the season started. “Same as in-season.”

Salary Cap LTIR Education
For a complete and thorough education on LTIR and its effect on the salary cap check this out from CapFriendly.com :

“Can LTIR be used in the off-season?”

“Yes, LTIR can be used in the off-season while the 10% off-season cushion is active. LTIR in the off-season is calculated using the basic equation outlined above, which permits a team to exceed the off-season salary cap. To use off-season LTIR the team must provide doctors proof that the player in question will continue to be injured at the beginning of the regular season for 10 NHL games and 24 calendar days.”

“At the start of the season the teams LTIR relief & ACSL is recalculated when the 10% cushion is removed.”

Cap Hit Or No Cap Hit?
This discovery actually creates more questions than answers for Blackhawk fans. If the LTIR provides cap relief during the off-season, why wasn’t this something used when Stan Bowman was signing free agents? Another $5 million plus may have altered the players signed, to say the least. Would Blackhawks fans still be in an uproar if Bowman had signed a top-tier free agent? Maybe, but that is what winning three Stanley Cups in six seasons can do to a fan base. Blackhawk fans expect a Cup run every year, not a rebuild as the team’s core ages.

Future Cap Concerns Ahead
The smart money is that Stan Bowman is preparing for the near future when his younger players will need to be taken care of financially. At the end of 2018-19, there will be numerous players becoming restricted free agents. (RFA’s) These include budding stars Dylan Sikura, Nick Schmaltz, Blake Hillman, Victor Ejdsell, Gustav Forsling, and potential goalie of the future Collin Delia.

This list does not include proven star Alex DeBrincat who led the team in goals last season. DeBrincat becomes an RFA at the end of 2020-21. Vinnie Hinostroza is another key player becoming an RFA at the same time as DeBrincat. You see where this is heading?

Planning and More Planning
Stan Bowman has another major roster problem on the horizon. He will need every spare dollar he can use to lock up the young players. These players will potentially make up the future core of the team very soon and must be taken care of to secure a competitive team going forward. It’s not easy for fans to see past the present where their favourite team did not make the playoffs. They need patience but do however have the right to expect the rebuild to be successful sooner than later as the current core ages. We’ll see what Bowman has in store for the team."
 
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