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(MTL / VGK) - Tatar, Suzuki, 2019 2nd for Pacioretty

Who won the trade?
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Sep 10, 2018 at 7:00
#51
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
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Quoting: buxvet
If they trade Tatar and Price, plus with the good amount of picks they have now
They'll have the picks to start a good rebuild


We already have enough picks... we had 3 2nds last year (10 picks overall), we have 10 this year as well. We just got Suzuki to go with our Prospects.... We can't trade everybody, we need some Veteran leadership to guide these guys
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Sep 10, 2018 at 8:20
#52
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 265
Likes: 167
One could argue that Vegas, by fleecing the BlueJackets into getting the Suzuki pick, didn’t give up as much and overall comes out ahead. But the fact remains Suzuki is still one of the Top-10 Centre prospect not playing in the NHL at the moment.

And lest we forget that Tomas Tatar (who Vegas game up a 1st/2nd/3rd for) is a perennial 20 goal scorer who almost never gets injured! His goal totals (GP in parentheses) are as follows:

2018: 20 (82)
2017: 25 (81)
2016: 21 (82)
2015: 29 (82)
2014: 19 (73)
2013: 27 (79) - NHL+AHL
2012: 24 (76) - AHL
2011: 25 (79) - NHL+AHL
2010: 16 (58) - AHL

The only seasons where he didn’t hit 20 goals were in seasons where he didn’t play a full slate of games. While he doesn’t have quite the goal scoring prowess as Paccioretty, he is only a small step down (and 2 years younger and locked at >2M less). Throw in Suzuki and a 2nd and the winner of this trade - it saddens me to say it as a Leafs fan - is definitely the Habs.

Bergevin May have just saved his job with this fancy manouvering.
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Sep 10, 2018 at 9:30
#53
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 934
Likes: 256
Edited Sep 10, 2018 at 9:36
Quoting: KoneDome
If you look all the way back to 2007 when they drafted Subban, McDonagh, and Pacioretty its pretty clear why this team couldn't get over the hump. In the last 10 drafts look at all their picks from the first two rounds:
2008:
56th: Danny Kristo (Danny who?)

2009:
18th: Louis Leblanc (I remember watching this live and fans went crazy because he was french, how did that turn out?)

2010:
22nd: Jarred Tinordi (hasn't played in NHL in two years)

2011:
17th: Nathan Beaulieu (another French player, can hardly play in Buffalo)

2012:
3rd: Alex Galchenyuk (7 Defenseman went after Galchenyuk. To mention a couple: Reilly, Trouba, Lindholm, Dumba. Can you imagine one of those guys with Subban?)
33rd: Sebastien Collberg (Sebastien who?)
51st: Dalton Thrower: (no comment needed)

2013:
25th: Michael McCarron (never worked out)
34th: Jacob De la Rose (19 pts in 119 GP)
36th: Zach Fucale (what happened with him?)
55th: Arturi Lehkonen (not a bad pick)

2014:
26th: Nikita Scherbak (kind of TBD, but probably a bad pick)

2015:
26th: Noal Juulsen: (also kind of TBD, but probably another bad pick)

2016:
9th: Sergachev (probably their best pick of all, but we know how this ended)

2017:
25th: Ryan Poehling (TBD)

2018:
3rd: Kotkaneimi: (TBD)


Goes to show, if they had hit on even just one or two of these picks, maybe they would have gotten that Center they always needed for Pacioretty or that D-man to play with Subban. Could have been a lot different.


C'mon Hater, you're making this too easy:

2008 -- Kristo: Out of the next 10 picks, only 2 have played games in the NHL. He was a worthwhile gamble who didn't pan out;
2009 -- Leblanc: Yup, horrible pick, especially when Kreider was the very next one available. (FYI, Leblanc was hardly French, coming from the West Island, but, yeah, it's still too bad....)
2010 -- Tinordi: Would have been dynamite if drafted in 2005, but he was picked the very year the NHL changed to rules to stop clutch-and-grab defence. BTW, the scouts did find Brendan Gallagher in the FIFTH round, so that turned out OK;
2011 -- Beaulieu: he had a good career going in Montreal but was traded so that he wouldn't be lost in the expansion draft. Oh, and he's not at all French. He's from Strathroy, ONTARIO, you racist;
2012 -- Galchenyuk is second to Filip Forsberg as best performer from that draft. Meanwhile Nial Yakupov (#1) and Ryan Murray (#2) are pretty forgettable; Collberg was traded for Tomas Vanek, so that was a pretty good save; Thrower never developed the foot speed. Bozon was doing pretty well until he got sick and almost died. And, so far, Hudon looks to be pretty good.
2013 -- McCarron was a gamble. Had his foot speed developed, he would have been fine. Would everyone prefer Shea Theodore? Yup. Still, it was an honest gamble at #25. JDLR, Lehkonen and Andrighetto have all turned out to be pretty good;
2014 -- Scherbak: By age, Scherbak is really more a member of the 2015 draft class, so this year will define the player he should become. Again for a #26 overall, he has been fine
2015 -- Juulsen: a keeper, for sure. Should they have taken Anthony Beauvilier (who went #28)? Maybe, but then you'd say they did it because he's French
2016 -- Sergachev: He is a fine player who netted Drouin, who's also a fine player; Bitten looks promising and Mete looks to be very good;
2017 -- Poehling: One of the top players in the NCAA as a sophomore; Josh Brook and Cale Fleury are both Team Canada prospects; and goalie Cayden Primeau was a first all-star in his first NCAA season.
2018 -- Who knows?
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Sep 11, 2018 at 4:27
#54
Pete
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 359
Likes: 15
This trade has no real winner. Disappointment Tatar for in Montreal disappointed Pacioretty. Plus-minus that. The bonus for Montreal is Suzuki and a second rounder. Just don't understand why 7M for Pacioretty, that's really too much for that player.
Sep 11, 2018 at 6:41
#55
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: Pete
This trade has no real winner. Disappointment Tatar for in Montreal disappointed Pacioretty. Plus-minus that. The bonus for Montreal is Suzuki and a second rounder. Just don't understand why 7M for Pacioretty, that's really too much for that player.


We lost 15 Goals for Suzuki + 2nd
Sep 11, 2018 at 10:20
#56
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 15,651
Likes: 3,752
Max can score 30+ with Vegas and both teams will still have won.

MB botched Pacioretty's value so technically in a perfect world, this would be low in terms of value back yes but given the situation they are in, this is a solid solid return.

Suzuki is a top 30 NHL prospect
Tatar is a decent 20+ goal scoring winger to replace a portion of Pacioretty's loss.
2019 2nd rounder in a deep draft

Habs got good value in this trade and Vegas got a very good winger. Win-Win.
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Sep 11, 2018 at 10:24
#57
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: F50marco
Max can score 30+ with Vegas and both teams will still have won.

MB botched Pacioretty's value so technically in a perfect world, this would be low in terms of value back yes but given the situation they are in, this is a solid solid return.

Suzuki is a top 30 NHL prospect
Tatar is a decent 20+ goal scoring winger to replace a portion of Pacioretty's loss.
2019 2nd rounder in a deep draft

Habs got good value in this trade and Vegas got a very good winger. Win-Win.


There is many factors just like every trade...

Will Pacioretty fit into the Vegas system?
Will Pacioretty return to form?

Will Suzuki turn into anything at the NHL level?
Will that 2nd turn into anything?
Will Tatar rebound?

It's one of those trades that we will need 5 years to judge to determine who won this trade..

As this point it's pretty much 50/50, but that could quickly change for either team very quickly
Sep 11, 2018 at 12:12
#58
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 15,651
Likes: 3,752
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
There is many factors just like every trade...

Will Pacioretty fit into the Vegas system?
Will Pacioretty return to form?

Will Suzuki turn into anything at the NHL level?
Will that 2nd turn into anything?
Will Tatar rebound?

It's one of those trades that we will need 5 years to judge to determine who won this trade..

As this point it's pretty much 50/50, but that could quickly change for either team very quickly



There's no way to gauge future success ahead of time. One can only gauge current values and in this case MTL got good value in this trade. If Tatar gets caught with Heroin and if Suzuki steps on a landmine is besides the point.

The goal for Vegas was to get an established goal scorer. They did. Win. MTL's goal was to accrue future assets, preferably in a position he is needing, and semi replace some Pacioretty's scoring. He did it. Win.

Their performances and development going forward will determine who won the trade more.
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Sep 11, 2018 at 5:44
#59
HARDY05
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
As much as I think Pacioretty will fit nicely alongside Stastny, I am very concerned about how much can last season's monster success cost Vegas long-term. Okay, iít was probably worth it just to see the cinderella story and to break all those records and to establish themselves as not-loosers. But imagine that last season was a fluke and beginner's luck - 50/50 chance I think considering that so many guys had their career years and Fleury stood on his head trying to prove everybody wrong (+ was reasonably healthy). Very hard to repeat that. So, we can have a mediocre team who got rid of their 1st, two 2nd and a 3rd round picks along with their second best offensive prospect (not far behind Glass - I love Suzuki) just to prove their innagrual season was not a coincidence. I hope that everything works out in the end but that cinderella story might prove very costly.

By the way, Montreal has amassed quite respectful center depth in a few years. They need that big 1C. But behind that, there's a healthy competition for every spot. High-end 2C - Kotkaniemi, Suzuki. Low 2C/high 3C - Evans, Poehling, Olofsson. Very good 3C - Danault, McShane, Vejdemo. There's still some potential in McCarron and Shinkaruk, I think. Plus bunch of center prospects that are hard to predict but may turn into something good like Ikonen, Fonstad, Verbeek, Alain, Audette. And the best thing is that they can move Drouin to wing, which I still think is better fit for him.
Sep 12, 2018 at 11:35
#60
VeeMerk
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 209
Likes: 65
Quoting: JonJon
So far McPhee has done good job replacing Neal and Perron.


Last year Vegas had a lot of players play wayyyy above their standards. It made their run magical but I don't think it is sustainable.

Going into this season, Patches and Statsny, overall, is much better and more stable than Neal and Perron. Great for Vegas

A dark horse is Daniel Carr. Kid plays with heart and can be an effective 3rd/4th line winger.

If they manage to boost their D (considering Shmidt's suspension), I think they will have a really good chance to repeat last years performance
Sep 12, 2018 at 11:42
#61
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: VeeMerk
Last year Vegas had a lot of players play wayyyy above their standards. It made their run magical but I don't think it is sustainable.

Going into this season, Patches and Statsny, overall, is much better and more stable than Neal and Perron. Great for Vegas

A dark horse is Daniel Carr. Kid plays with heart and can be an effective 3rd/4th line winger.

If they manage to boost their D (considering Shmidt's suspension), I think they will have a really good chance to repeat last years performance


Carr is a great energetic 4th line guy, but he can't play defense to save his life. Don't expect much from him
Sep 19, 2018 at 1:01
#62
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,590
Likes: 648
Quoting: kopiino
Montreal comes out well and Vegas loses. 2 1st round picks (Veleno and Suzuki), 2 2nd round picks, and a 3rd round pick for Pacioretty is a pretty big loss when put in perspective


No question that the Tatar deal was a total flop for Vegas. They were very fortunate to be able to dump his ridiculously high $5M cap hit on MTL. I believe the trade was going to be Suzuki for Pacioretty straight up and MTL agreed to take Tatar for a 2nd round pick. Contrary to popular opinion: Tatar had a negative value given his AAV. Vegas had to pay MTL to get rid of him.
Sep 19, 2018 at 1:21
#63
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: Brian2016
No question that the Tatar deal was a total flop for Vegas. They were very fortunate to be able to dump his ridiculously high $5M cap hit on MTL. I believe the trade was going to be Suzuki for Pacioretty straight up and MTL agreed to take Tatar for a 2nd round pick. Contrary to popular opinion: Tatar had a negative value given his AAV. Vegas had to pay MTL to get rid of him.


During the first preseason game, Tatar was easily one of our best players, I really like this deal. No way was Tatar a cap dump. He scored 20 goals 4 seasons in a row. We both know Suzuki alone was not worth Pacioretty
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Sep 19, 2018 at 4:02
#64
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,590
Likes: 648
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
During the first preseason game, Tatar was easily one of our best players, I really like this deal. No way was Tatar a cap dump. He scored 20 goals 4 seasons in a row. We both know Suzuki alone was not worth Pacioretty


I'll buy you a beer if Pacioretty scores 20+G this season. HAHAHA
Sep 19, 2018 at 4:13
#65
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: Brian2016
I'll buy you a beer if Pacioretty scores 20+G this season. HAHAHA


That seems like a giving. I will bet you he scores 35+ this season. With Stastny (Wild Bill) I would even bet there is a high chance he pots 40
Sep 19, 2018 at 4:23
#66
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,590
Likes: 648
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
That seems like a giving. I will bet you he scores 35+ this season. With Stastny (Wild Bill) I would even bet there is a high chance he pots 40


So sorry!!! I meant to say Tatar!!! I actually do believe that Max will score at least 30G this season, especially on Vegas's top PP unit. You're right, his ceiling is close to 40G. He's finally gonna be playing w/ a good Center-which he never really had the benefit of while in MTL.
Sep 19, 2018 at 7:24
#67
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: Brian2016
So sorry!!! I meant to say Tatar!!! I actually do believe that Max will score at least 30G this season, especially on Vegas's top PP unit. You're right, his ceiling is close to 40G. He's finally gonna be playing w/ a good Center-which he never really had the benefit of while in MTL.


Yep. I can almost guarantee you Tatar will pot 25 goals this year. Top line + Top PP time. Someone has to score and he has looked really good in Training Camp + Preseason thus far
Nov 3, 2018 at 2:23
#68
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: Jarvis
Also put into perspective how Vegas got Suzuki and the 2019 2nd. Columbus sent the 2017 1st (Suzuki) 2019 2nd (just traded to habs) and Clarkson to Vegas in exchange for selecting William Karlsson. Vegas did trade a lot to get Tatar (1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks). So overall perspective heres the trade:

To Vegas: Pacioretty, Karlsson, Clarkson
To Montreal: Tatar, 2017 1st (Suzuki) 2019 2nd
To Detroit: 2018 1st (#30 Valeno) , 2019 2nd, 2021 3rd
To Columbus: expansion draft considerations

Gotta say Vegas comes out well. Not overly a big loss considering how they received the assets from Columbus and how many draft picks they acquired during the expansion draft.


Vegas easily fairs the worst out of the teams mentioned
Jan 28 at 5:10
#69
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: palhal
We'll see if Tatar can be dumped that easily. Three years at 4.8m....doesn't scream great value. He should OK, Habs might find best value at the TDL 2021 when he's on an expiring contract.
Funny how Habs like this deal. For the past few months, Hab fans posting on this site thought Patches would get considerable more.


Yikes, how wrong were you
Jan 28 at 5:12
#70
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: BridgewatersFinest
To me this is the very definition of a hockey trade.

Vegas, in win-now mode (try saying THAT two years ago...), sell some of the future to pay for today, while Montreal sells a big part of today (out of the conference, no less, so smart move there) to get better tomorrow. Both teams got their players below contract value (Vegas for this season, Montreal for the next three).

I'll be interested to see Pacioretty's extension dollars, got to imagine it starts with a 7, or a very high 6, with a full NMC and a modified 10-12 team NTC.


Imagine Montreal winning both now and in the future..
Jan 28 at 5:13
#71
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: ricochetii
I think there's an element of truth to that.

Pacioretty should have netted a higher return at an earlier date. Montreal could have had something along the lines of Zadina, Suzuki (or similar), and Veleno. They drafted for need with Kotkaniemi, which wouldn't have been necessary, allowing them to take a more consensus high pick and grab an insurance policy C prospect later in the 1st round. Veleno was available until #30.
Coincidentally, Detroit ended up with the two players I feel Montreal should have picked up (Zadina and Veleno), while Montreal ended up with former Red Wing Tatar.

Given how poorly this was handled, and how long it lasted, I'm surprised the return was decent enough that my immediate reaction wasn't disgust at Bergevin. I'm still not happy that he let it get to this point, but as far as salvaging what he could out of the terrible situation he created, I don't think anyone else could have done much better.


XD
Jan 28 at 5:15
#72
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: Brian2016
No question that the Tatar deal was a total flop for Vegas. They were very fortunate to be able to dump his ridiculously high $5M cap hit on MTL. I believe the trade was going to be Suzuki for Pacioretty straight up and MTL agreed to take Tatar for a 2nd round pick. Contrary to popular opinion: Tatar had a negative value given his AAV. Vegas had to pay MTL to get rid of him.


Funny how he goes from Negative value to being worth pretty much the same value as Pacioretty.
Jan 28 at 5:15
#73
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
That seems like a giving. I will bet you he scores 35+ this season. With Stastny (Wild Bill) I would even bet there is a high chance he pots 40


I probably shouldn't of made this 2nd bet lol
Jan 28 at 5:16
#74
Habs4Ever
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4,027
Likes: 927
Quoting: Brian2016
So sorry!!! I meant to say Tatar!!! I actually do believe that Max will score at least 30G this season, especially on Vegas's top PP unit. You're right, his ceiling is close to 40G. He's finally gonna be playing w/ a good Center-which he never really had the benefit of while in MTL.


4 more goals in 31 games and you owe me a beer smile
Jan 28 at 5:54
#75
LongtimeLeafsufferer
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 28,160
Likes: 6,347
Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Yikes, how wrong were you


You're right. I'm happy for Tatar and the Habs.
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