I couldn’t agree more. Last night was atrocious. Forwards were not checking in the neutral zone. Gap control was horrible, and they were giving way too much time and space to the Flames. Oh, and they were chasing way too much on the PK. When Flames spread the formation, Jackets should have sat back and tightened the box to get the flames back down low again.

Bob had a .692 save percentage. And frankly the coach left him out there to dry, like they have done multiple times this season trying to make him look bad. Frankly, that isn't going to help their negotiating with him it's only gonna piss him off.

As for Duclair, he gets scratched because he's lazy and stupid. He also doesn't play Torts hockey, aka know how to check anyone. It has nothing to do with chemistry. It has everything to do with him thinking the only part of the game is him shooting goals. At some point you have to actually play defense, check opposing players and do something other than cherry pick by the blue line.

Your defense held the opposition to 3 field goals, what more do you want?





? Sorry @matt59 couldn't help myself

Not saying duclair is good defensively, he's bad defensively too. But you'd think the defenseman who sucks at defense and can barely check would see some time riding the pine too. And Bob realizes he wasn't good last night and was a professional about it. He'll move on just fine.

flames went 3/3 on field goals, need to #block those kicks

For the record, it's evident that 8's play is dragging Seth Jones down. It's basically a 5 on 4 in the defensive zone with werenski on the ice. Ryan Murray is leaps and bounds better as an all around defenseman.

I think it's really easy to blame defensemen when your goalie couldn't stop backetball from entering the net.

He has not played well all year. He has let in a lot of really soft goals including a few last night. I think your expectations for 8 are a little insane. He came in and had a pretty solid rookie year and that became the expectation. So now anything under that and you want to bench him. That's just crazy talk. He can't play goalie too. At some point the goalie has to help the defense men out just as much as the defense men have to help the goalie out. If bob was playing as well as he was in 8's rookie year you wouldn't even be talking about this.

Considering he's being outperformed by every other decent defenseman on the ice for Columbus and that when he was on the 3rd pair, the defense was playing it's best and was allowing the fewest high danger chances it has all season, it's not being unreasonable. It's not like I'm basing his play relative to a elite player like Drew Doughty... he's been worse than Scott Harrington in the defensive zone. Also, can't blame Bob for werenski getting his ankles broken and absolutely dangled by Johnny Gaudreau in front of the net resulting in the 8th goal.

Bob let in some softies last night but for the 10 games prior was instrumental in Columbus playing well.

He was never all that strong defensively. He's an offensive defense man. You act like his game has changed. It hasn't. He's the guy you send out there to score, not to shut down a team. It's always been that way. Further more, that 8th goal was soft. That was the one he let in between the pads. That was clearly a goal he should have stopped and he didn't. Why on earth would you blame that solely on the defense man. At some point the goalie has to keep the pucks out the net too.

Monahan was standing right there too and there were no other blue jackets around. If Gaudreau doesn't score there Monahan will. And it's one thing to be an offensive defenseman whose offense offsets his defensive deficiencies. But he's literally not even doing that anymore. For every decent scoring chance he creates it feels like he gives up a higher danger or multiple chances the other way. The numbers reflect this as well.

48.46% Corsi, -28 Corsi +/-
48.01% Scoring Chances, -17 SC +/-
45.20% High Danger Corsi, -17 HDC +/-
*Information from Natural Stat Trick

*For context to the past, he was between 51-54% at all three categories in both the 2016-17 and 2017-18 seasons.

For Comparison, with all CBJ skaters > 110 mins played with werenski the painted picture isn't very good either. (110 mins is roughly the cutoff point between his most common players on the ice with him and decent sample size)
*To keep formatting sane, Werenski is labelled as 8 - In addition it would be amazing if Capfriendly had a "Table" Feature for comments sections to present data in a clear format to make a sound argument @Jarvis @Banks

Player / TOI With 8 / CF% Rel w/ 8 / 8 CF % REl W/o Player / Player CF % Rel w/o 8 / HDCF% Rel w/ 8 / 8 HDCF % REl W/o Player / Player HDCF % Rel w/o 8
Panarin / 163 / 2.63 / -2.95 / 3.60 / -11.13 / -4.52 / 6.21
Jenner / 122 / 2.44 / -1.89 / -0.67 / -1.75 / -6.84 / -2.30
Atkinson / 147 / -1.96 / -0.73 / -0.70 / -12.09 / -3.88 / 4.67
Savard / 144 / -5.2 / -0.01 / -2.02 / -4.10 / -6.30 / 1.98
Anderson / 115 / 7.28 / -2.86 / 3.85 / 2.96 / -7.92 / 3.43
Foligno / 124 / -5.09 / -0.09 / -1.39 / -19.78 / -1.44 / 0.74
Dubois / 155 / -0.25 / -1.33 / 1.02 / -11.52 / -4.37 / 6.36
Jones / 210 / 2.82 / -1.32 / 2.28 / -5.14 / -6.07 / 1.61

EDIT: this data also is from NST

In almost every case, the players when playing with Werenski are either decent or good based on pure Corsi, and are terrible in terms of HDCF with werenski and dramatically improve away from him. Even in the case of Josh Anderson where he has good HDCF numbers with him, Anderson improves away from Werenski and Werenski gets significantly worse away from Anderson.

Note: I personally am a big believer that High Danger Chances and scoring chances are a much better way to evaluate how well a team or player is performing compared to pure Corsi, thus I put more value in analyzing how a player fares in the Scoring Chance/ HDCF battle (hence my concerns and problems with ZW's play)

This is a long and detailed way of me saying that yes, his game has changed and that he needs to either see a significant ice time reduction or brief pressbox stint. His play is not to the level it needs to be and there are clearly visible issues with his game that have been present all season. By no means am I saying to trade or get rid of him. There's a lot of talent there. But both the numbers and eye test are *screaming* that his play is hurting the team so far this year.

I think you are looking way to much into this looking to find something that confirms what you want.
He gets the harder match up game after game. He's also out on the ice with other players who aren't exactly defensive in nature. Neither Panarin nor Atkinson is much help on the defensive side of the ice. Basically dumping the defensive responsibilities on 3 other players.
You have a live by the sword die by the sword when those are your forward combos. So of course the numbers will either go one way or the other. Puck luck isn't always going to bounce your way. Singling him out as the cause really doesn't make much sense.
He's already on pace this year to score more points than he did last year, and possibly his rookie year if he plays all 82 games. His ppg is only .01 off his rookie season so I'm not sure why you are complaining about it. He's also getting more starts in the defensive zone this year compared to last year. So he's kind of doing more with less compared to last year.
You could look at a lot of players on the team this year and say their stats are in decline. Panarin for example is on pace for only 21 goals this year. Meanwhile Cam is having a pretty good year after a down year last year.
Truth is he's doing ok. His offensive numbers are right where they were his rookie year. Yes his +/- is not where you would like it, but when you aren't getting much help from your forwards, and your goalie keeps letting in soft goals what do you expect? Putting him to the pine simply isn't a good decision. Other than Jones who else is gonna come in and have some offensive game?
I think if you want to see 8 play better you would probably be better off cutting Jones down to 21-22 minutes a night instead of the 26+ minutes a night he's playing. Maybe that way 8 isn't playing next to a dead tired defensive pairing player.

The narrative that Panarin and Atkinson don't play defense is just not true. They've had some errant turnovers, but both players backcheck hard and force turnovers. They're not lazy defensive players and create far more offense than they allow as a whole.

And again, it's not about the points for me. If you can create more offense than you allow I wouldn't be complaining. It's that he's allowing way more chances against than he ever has. And as a whole on the season, it's not a puck luck thing, as his on ice PDO is like 99.7.

And the "stars in decline" point isn't necessarily true. Panarin is a point per game player and at this point last season he was around 0.75 PPG.

And aside from the Calgary and Tampa Bay games where Bob has allowed 8 goals, he's been very good in 80% of the rest of his games. It's not like he's letting in softies night in and night out.

To the Jones point, Ryan Murray has 15 points (one less than Werenski) and the combo of him and Jones were stellar together. Murray's play didn't suffer alongside Jones despite playing 25+ mins. And Werenski played on the top pair his rookie and sophomore years. The competition he's playing isn't significantly more difficult than it has been before.

There's lot of players who have benefited from taking a one game benching. Torts has scratched or benched lots of players in the past, and uses that as both a motivational and teaching moment. Jones got benched the last two periods of the last game of the year in his first year with CBJ. Brandon Saad was *almost* a healthy scratch against the ducks in 2016-17. The perspective of seeing the game from above and having extra motivation to play his back into the lineup is a powerful tool. We're talking about a short term benching here, not sending him to the AHL or trading him or anything stupid like that.

Yeah I hate to break it to you but it's not 1 player giving up more chances. There are 5 skaters on the ice when that is happening. And to say that Cam and Panarin are defensively responsible is not being honest. Neither one is going to go fight for a puck on the boards. It's not their style. They are both smaller players who aren't grinders like that. They excel in open ice. You simply don't get to just dump it on 8, it isn't all on him.
Furthermore, like I said in the very beginning. If bob was playing better, you wouldn't even be mentioning it because the points are there. But he isn't playing better and it's not masking the issues that were there all along but didn't really matter because they weren't effecting games.

Clearly you haven't watched tons of Blue Jackets games this year. Panarin multiple times has engaged in puck battles along the boards and come out with the puck, and he did that last year too. And I didn't say they were defensively responsible players, I said they're not lazy defensive players. Two completely different statements. Of course neither player is a grinder, but having lots of skill and being shorter =/= soft. Both players are very strong on their skates and also can win puck battles.

And I'd be very curious to see the zone entry and exit stats regarding the CBJ defense and targeted entries. They're not publicly available for free but i've seen them used as statistical evidence in articles in places such as the Athletic and other sites. I forget what player was being analyzed but there was data to show that that player was targeted on offensive zone entries by the opposition. The zone entry and exit stats would also show how often a player gives up the blueline vs. standing up to a rush at the blueline and breaking up plays before they enter the zone. I don't have the data available (have to subscribe to view it), but at least based on what I've seen, it feels like opposing teams tend to target werenski's side of the ice when entering the zone since they know he's more likely to back off at the blueline instead of challenging the entry and breaking it up.

I love how people come up with these dump statements about how other people don't watch hockey. When fox sports ohio is listed as a favorite on my remote.

The truth is you may watch games but you only see what you want to see. Panarin is more likely to cherry pick than to play defense. It's ok, lots of teams have that guy who is looking for their fast break out. Goal scorers aren't there to get dirty and frankly the team really doesn't want them against the boards too much getting their head taken off. But please don't sit there and tell me Panarin is a 2 way player in any way shape or form., he's not. Neither him nor Atkinson are all that much help on the defensive side. That's ok, it's not really what the team is paying them for. It's one of the reasons why CBJ is so low on the hits list this year with 505 and Torts is PO about it talking about needing more hate on the team. For a team that use to be top of the league of hits it's clear there are a lot of differences between this team and the one his rookie year. That has a lot to do with other players on the ice and changes in their system. To put that in perspecitve Vegas is 1 with 816. That has a lot to do with players like Panarin, Cam, DuClair, who frankly don't hit, don't play defense, and are only there to score. Which is why a player like DuClair is riding pine, because you can only put so many players out there who are liabilities in the defensive zone. But it's clear there has been enough roaster turn over since his rookie year that he doesn't get the defensive help he use to.

There is a lot of blame to go around for the bad defense on the ice, why you are hell bent on taking it out on 8 is just sad. He's a good player. Blaming him. Sitting him doesn't benefit either him or the team.
It only creates a hole on the ice for however long he's sitting. Which is why he doesn't sit.
The truth is you have a kid who i s aggressive offensively, jumps into plays to keep the puck in the offensive zone, and is trying to score points which is exactly what they want from him. If things go south on the defensive end there isn't really much help for him out there. If the coaches wanted him or Jones to play differently they would ask them to. They don't, nor should they. It would be like asking OV to play a trap scheme again. We all know how that didn't work.
Yes the kid will get exposed at times, but is it really all his fault? Or maybe the goaltender has to be stronger in the net behind him to cover some of those mistakes and he's not this year. Maybe the forwards who are typically worthless in fighting for the puck need to put a little more skin into the game. But then again, does anyone want to see them checked through the glass for doing it? Probably not so take the good with the bad and hope for better puck luck net time. But don't blame 8 for everything that goes wrong just because he's on the ice. He can't do it all himself and they are want him to worry about being aggressive offensively instead of playing back defensively.

Lol I never once said Panarin is a "two way player"... he's not a shot blocker and he's not a shutdown guy. In fact, he was a turnover machine last night and the past few games (and yet still had 2 points). And Atkinson plays PK and Torts has praised his defensive effort on occasion so it is completely unfair to say he's "not much help on the defensive side". It may not be their primary job to play defense, but when they need to, they're not utterly useless, and Tortorella has acknowledged as such. You can play more on the offensive side of the puck and not be a total defensive liability, the two styles are not mutually exclusive.

*I'm well aware Duclair doesn't play defense and agree that you can't have an entire line that refuses to check (duclair-wennberg-bjorkstrand when they were together), and that's why he's the odd man out

And hits don't correlate with playing defense at all. Not sure why that connection is made at all. Playing defense is far more than just playing the body and laying guys out, it's stick checks, being positionally sound, and making fast and effective reads to get the puck back.

Look, Werenski is a good player and in the past was one of my favorites. But if you can't see that he's struggling mightily right now I have no clue what to tell you. It's not like Torts picked a name out of the hat last night and decided upon Werenski (and Panarin) being benched for the remaining 5 mins of the flyers game. He doesn't look comfortable on the ice making any defensive reads (which is *kind of* an important part of the game), and it shows. Were all three goals against that he was on the ice for his fault? Absolutely not. He was the only man back on the first goal and did his best to block Giroux's shot. But on particularly the third goal he gave the blueline too passively and then didn't do a good job of defending Voracek resulting in the pass to Sanheim that quickly ended up in the back of the net. Maybe it's a confidence thing but his game is off right now, and if you can't accept that I don't know what to say. The stats say he's struggling mightily, he doesn't look confident or comfortable on the ice via the eye test, and Tortorella benched him at the end of the game and has alluded to the fact that he himself hasn't loved what he's seen out of him this year. At the current moment, hitting the reset button and scratching him for one game seems like the best move since right now his play is hurting the team (again, stats, eye test, and the coaching staff say this). This is absolutely NOT to say he's a bad player all the time (I think he will bounce back later, hence why I absolutely don't want him traded), but right now it's not pretty.

I genuinely hope the kid pulls it together, because long term he's an important piece of the franchise and a good kid, but right now, he's not cutting it and needs to be better.

every player has patches where things don't go their way.
You seem to think benching him is going to "fix" it.
My opinion is you need to let him play through it. Especially since there is a hole in the line up with him out.

I'm just going to leave it at that.