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(TOR/LAK) - Grundström, Durzi and 2019 1st round pick for Muzzin

Who won the trade?
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Jan 28 at 9:38
#51
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 2,998
Likes: 533
Quoting: BoltsPoint21
So who do you trade to make the team better? There's almost nothing left in the cupboard, you're at the bottom of the league, and your core is aging and declining.


Toffoli, Iafallo, Forbort, Hagelin, Phaneuf, Campbell, ect.
Trade some of them for picks to make space and pick up people IN FREE AGENCY. LA as a whole draws interest in players.
If you ever look at some of my posts. I've drawn out many options.
Jan 28 at 9:48
#52
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 2,998
Likes: 533
Quoting: tatatavares
I could become an NHLer just by being on a pairing with Drew Doughty. Muzzin is past his peak, and he owes his spot in the lineup to the Kings having no prospects since Pearson + Toffoli. I don't think there is any uncertainty about what we'll get from him -- a few good years in a spot and time where it makes a material difference.

In terms of value. I would have rather paid the same and gotten Dante Fabbro's rights from Nashville, or Adam Fox's rights from Carolina (2 NCAA players), if this were the only trade the Leafs make before the deadline.

I'm not ripping the deal, nor Muzzin. It's just the price in the market, and an acknowledgment that Dubas will be looking under the couch cushions just to find enough to get past Boston in the first round.
The only way this is a smart move for the Leafs is if we also sell Gardiner, and buy a RHD that will probably cost more than Muzzin


I'm not even going to read all of that. I lost interest when you said Muzzin is past his peak. His peak is right now he's never been better. He's better than Doughty right now. Do you even watch him every game? You're talking out of your ***
Jan 28 at 9:55
#53
Nazaleaf
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 99
Likes: 90
Quoting: palhal
How can you call the Leafs defence an empty wasteland? Kings have "name" Dmen., and where has it got them recently. Leafs and Tampa have identical GAA, but somehow Leafs are perceived as terrible defensively.

So the Leafs add Muzzin who likely nudges Ozzie from the starting six. Hardly game changing at all for the Leafs.


I'm not going to say that the Leafs D is any of that, but replacing Ozzie with "Muzzie" Muzzin is quite a big jump!
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Jan 28 at 10:04
#54
Big John T
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 468
Likes: 84
Edited Jan 28 at 10:10
Quoting: Bf3351
I'm not even going to read all of that. I lost interest when you said Muzzin is past his peak. His peak is right now he's never been better. He's better than Doughty right now. Do you even watch him every game? You're talking out of your ***


Age vs Performance with NHL Skaters

Calm down
D peak at 24, and the decline accelerates at 30.
Trust me

The Leafs gave up players that will play a multiple of the minutes Muzzin has left in him
1st + 2nd + 3rd is essentially what we paid, our fans have turned down much better players at that price

If you want to distill my reaction, it's that the Leafs are done standing still and waiting for the Bruins to bulldoze us in the first round.
We are now openly spending assets for short term improvements.
Jan 28 at 10:10
#55
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 697
Likes: 174
Quoting: Bf3351
Rebuild aren't fun when you don't need one. Dude, Kings core was just top 5 in each of their position just LAST SEASON. You don't rebuild not even a full season after that... it's common sense. What are our issues? Our core is great, hmm.... Maybe it's because their linemates are **** and don't help them. Big mistake here.


Problem is after your core is gone you've got nothing coming through. Are the kings bottom of the league? Yes. Are the Kings in a position to turn it around this season? No. So as GM what do. Hope they turn it around next year, maybe get into the post season and then play a team that is better built to "win now". Or trade away some of your better players now to get some you and maybe have a run in a few years once Doughty and Kopitar have taught the new kids how to play pro.

Detroit retooled and retooled and retool and where did it get them. First round exits for how many years? Not winning cups but not drafting to highly either. Blake is doing LA a favor
Jan 28 at 10:19
#56
rangersandislesfan
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 26,846
Likes: 2,895
How does Toronto sign everybody? Somebody's getting traded.
Jan 28 at 10:22
#57
Big John T
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 468
Likes: 84
eg:

The Kings last won the Stanley Cup when Muzzin was 23.
Muzzin's points peaked the next year when he turned 24. +10 points on just the PP, and another 7 from more minutes at 5on5 for a career high 41 points.

He's a bit heavier and thus a bit slower, so his dropoff will be faster than someone like Karlsson for example.
Ideal counter-examples would be Chara and Byfuglien, but look again at their numbers. You pay UFA dollars, and they are half as good at the end of a contract as when they signed it.
Jan 28 at 10:33
#58
Follow @CapFriendly
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 940
Likes: 370
Quoting: tatatavares
eg:

The Kings last won the Stanley Cup when Muzzin was 23.
Muzzin's points peaked the next year when he turned 24. +10 points on just the PP, and another 7 from more minutes at 5on5 for a career high 41 points.

He's a bit heavier and thus a bit slower, so his dropoff will be faster than someone like Karlsson for example.
Ideal counter-examples would be Chara and Byfuglien, but look again at their numbers. You pay UFA dollars, and they are half as good at the end of a contract as when they signed it.


Not really sure what you are trying to prove. Your examples are of players who got paid top $$ and signed long term when they became UFA. Muzzin is solid defensive D and making only $4M as a UFA AND only under contract for 1 more season. Leafs dont have the cap space to afford a UFA making $7.6M and up.
Jan 28 at 10:42
#59
Big John T
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 468
Likes: 84
Quoting: rangersandislesfan
How does Toronto sign everybody? Somebody's getting traded.


A GM holding the most interest is smart to be patient, and I would bet it's around some RHD this year. Dubas could have saved himself a 1st round pick if he only wanted to add Muzzin, but he put it away early.

So we can surmise:
Dubas is prepared to spend more on another addition, probably a RHD (eg 2 picks + roster + prospect)
Nylander is untradeable before July 1st, but they'll get a good offer with multiple pieces that smooth out the current surgery because they don't need a specific return
Gardiner is probably gone. He can't be extended due to Marleau, so Dubas will hopefully continue to be proactive and salvage something (unlike with Bozak, JVR, ...)
Winning a playoff round sets the stage for Matthews and Marner contracts, and cleanses the memory of Nylander winning by holding out

The complication is that trades can't happen when teams are on their week off (new this year).


We've got a good team because everyone knows it's clear who is expendable and who is not. Gardiner/Zaitsev/Johnsson/Lindholm from the roster.
TDL is February 25th this year, it's going to be crazy in Toronto
Jan 28 at 11:00
#60
Follow @CapFriendly
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 940
Likes: 370
Quoting: tatatavares
A GM holding the most interest is smart to be patient, and I would bet it's around some RHD this year. Dubas could have saved himself a 1st round pick if he only wanted to add Muzzin, but he put it away early.

So we can surmise:
Dubas is prepared to spend more on another addition, probably a RHD (eg 2 picks + roster + prospect)
Nylander is untradeable before July 1st, but they'll get a good offer with multiple pieces that smooth out the current surgery because they don't need a specific return
Gardiner is probably gone. He can't be extended due to Marleau, so Dubas will hopefully continue to be proactive and salvage something (unlike with Bozak, JVR, ...)
Winning a playoff round sets the stage for Matthews and Marner contracts, and cleanses the memory of Nylander winning by holding out

The complication is that trades can't happen when teams are on their week off (new this year).


We've got a good team because everyone knows it's clear who is expendable and who is not. Gardiner/Zaitsev/Johnsson/Lindholm from the roster.
TDL is February 25th this year, it's going to be crazy in Toronto


Sure a GM can be patient, but there is no way Muzzin is moving without the first round pick. Hes not a pending UFA, he still has value if LAK decided to hang onto him into the draft or even next trade deadline. And im sure other teams would have offered just as much at the deadline.

Dubas stated Nylander is a core piece and won't be traded. Never know but its highly unlikely he will move after July 1.
Gardiner is definitely gone now. Muzzin is a cheaper replacement next season. I don't see much value in moving Gardiner at the trade deadline, but never know on that. Misewell have a free rental.

Hopefully Zaitsev gets moved so we can free some space. Right now theres $4M in cap space not including performance bonuses, so definitely will be interesting to see what Leafs do on the 25th.
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Jan 28 at 11:13
#61
Big John T
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 468
Likes: 84
Quoting: Jarvis
Not really sure what you are trying to prove. Your examples are of players who got paid top $$ and signed long term when they became UFA. Muzzin is solid defensive D and making only $4M as a UFA AND only under contract for 1 more season. Leafs dont have the cap space to afford a UFA making $7.6M and up.


I think you're confused about what I believe.


Objectively:
We will extend Muzzin, we paid a 1st+2nd+3rd for a reason. I like Muzzin just fine.
But because of his age, LA wins the trade in the long term and TOR wins the trade for the first 2-3 years

I believe:
It's not a bargain price, but we chose to outbid rather than lose another year to Boston.
It is only a good deal if we bring in a RHD of the same caliber.
That one will cost even more. I'm fine with that, there's no trophy for 8th place and this is our best shot with a young Matthews and a young Marner.

This is a serious change from trying to win every trade over the long term, investing in picks+prospects at the expense of the current roster.
We are leaving trade fantasy land, where you can win simply by holding out and badmouthing any deal that isn't a landslide in our favour.
We are taking the first steps into the reality of trying to win the Stanley Cup now.
It is going to be a big adjustment for the pigeons who will have to admit Gardiner and Zaitsev don't cut the mustard, and what acquiring real top 4 D costs in the market.
Hopefully any moves Dubas can manage will take the team higher all the way to the Cup before the wave crashes and we start again.
We can't stop now that we've started, there's no refunds on Muzzin.
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Jan 28 at 11:25
#62
Big John T
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 468
Likes: 84
Quoting: Jarvis
Sure a GM can be patient, but there is no way Muzzin is moving without the first round pick. Hes not a pending UFA, he still has value if LAK decided to hang onto him into the draft or even next trade deadline. And im sure other teams would have offered just as much at the deadline.

Can you show me some posts that had Muzzin fetching this much from the Leafs? Don't pretend we won the deal in both the short and long term by puffing up Muzzin and downplaying the assets we gave up.
We got the best price we could while still getting what we needed.
Quoting: Jarvis

Dubas stated Nylander is a core piece and won't be traded.


That would be nice, but:
(a) every GM always denies a trade before it's done. For the sake of the player in case it falls through, for the sake of the team so other GMs don't lowball them
(b) If the Leafs bring in another player like Muzzin, there's incentive to rebalance/restock the prospect pool and to manage the roster for the cap with extensions to Matthews and Marner and Kapanen

Dubas will get full price for Nylander, extend the Stanley Cup window, and make an example of someone who held out against a rookie GM (even if his destination were as good of a team, he won't have the same profile to earn the same income from ads)
Jan 28 at 11:38
#63
@Pointerr21
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 7,404
Likes: 2,521
Quoting: Bf3351
Toffoli, Iafallo, Forbort, Hagelin, Phaneuf, Campbell, ect.
Trade some of them for picks to make space and pick up people IN FREE AGENCY. LA as a whole draws interest in players.
If you ever look at some of my posts. I've drawn out many options.


You can't build a team through free agency. No top free agent like Karlsson or Panarin is going to willingly sign in a team with an aging core when there's much more greener pastures in a good area and a competitive team such as Vegas and San Jose. And trading Phaneuf for value? LMFAO. Good luck.
Jan 29 at 12:01
#64
Molson beer is meh
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,462
Likes: 932
Idk, problem for TOR was RD, no? If you're going to spend your 1st rd pick + prospects, you'd think you'd go and get a RD. Muzzin is a LD. Sure if we're thinking for next year this makes sense, with Muzzin being a cheaper and better replacement to Gardiner, this a big win for TOR. But in the context of trying to win this year, don't see how this is solving the problem, Leafs going to have 2 lefty's on the right side (Hainsey and Muzzin)?

so for me I'd say fair deal. Muzzin is still an upgrade on the Defense (which is still needed, no matter what side he plays). LAK gets the future assets they wanted for moving a Vet.
Jan 29 at 12:13
#65
Oui non grille-pain
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,771
Likes: 1,208
Quoting: Capitalfail67
Muzzin is now the best dman in the nhl


Not quite. He's simultaneously the best and the worst.
Jan 29 at 12:15
#66
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,466
Likes: 498
any person here that thinks this trade isn't good for the leafs is an idiot. Enough said
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Jan 29 at 12:26
#67
rangersandislesfan
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 26,846
Likes: 2,895
Quoting: tatatavares
A GM holding the most interest is smart to be patient, and I would bet it's around some RHD this year. Dubas could have saved himself a 1st round pick if he only wanted to add Muzzin, but he put it away early.

So we can surmise:
Dubas is prepared to spend more on another addition, probably a RHD (eg 2 picks + roster + prospect)
Nylander is untradeable before July 1st, but they'll get a good offer with multiple pieces that smooth out the current surgery because they don't need a specific return
Gardiner is probably gone. He can't be extended due to Marleau, so Dubas will hopefully continue to be proactive and salvage something (unlike with Bozak, JVR, ...)
Winning a playoff round sets the stage for Matthews and Marner contracts, and cleanses the memory of Nylander winning by holding out

The complication is that trades can't happen when teams are on their week off (new this year).


We've got a good team because everyone knows it's clear who is expendable and who is not. Gardiner/Zaitsev/Johnsson/Lindholm from the roster.
TDL is February 25th this year, it's going to be crazy in Toronto


What do you mean trades can't be made during bye weeks? I agree, Gardiner is gone, butMatthews will probably want 10M+, Marner will want a lot, and Kapanen's having a good year, so he might want a lot of money. Maybe 4.5-5.25 or so. I don't know if it's gonna work. Somebody will need to be traded.
Jan 29 at 2:39
#68
Molson beer is meh
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,462
Likes: 932
Quoting: Rodzikhockey93
any person here that thinks this trade isn't good for the leafs is an idiot. Enough said


Conversely, any person here that thinks this trade isn't good for the Kings is also an idiot....which is why it's a fair trade. a 1st rd pick with 2 prospects (that are 2nd rd picks) is a great haul for a Veteran Dman whose a UFA in about 1 year and a half. But yes, I'd also say it's a good deal for the Leafs.
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Jan 29 at 2:43
#69
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,597
Likes: 651
Quoting: Bf3351
Rob Blake, you POS!!! You just demolished what's left of out blue line.... Muzzin was the best defenseman on our team right now.


They really had to trade Muzzin here. They had a lot of leverage w/ TOR. The Leafs were desperate for a top 4 defensive D. Muzzin checks a lot of boxes for Dubas and the Babcock. It's not like TOR is giving up a top 10 pick for a rental. Late 1st rounders are not nearly as valuable as many people think.
Jan 29 at 2:55
#70
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,597
Likes: 651
Quoting: rangersandislesfan
How does Toronto sign everybody? Somebody's getting traded.


Gardiner is gone. He's essentially a rental for the rest of this season. I also think Nylander will be traded this summer.
tatatavares liked this.
Jan 29 at 6:45
#71
fence
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 318
Likes: 113
Quoting: Bf3351
Kings DON'T NEED a rebuild. They need a RETOOL.


Kings do need a rebuild. And with all those heavy deals, Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Quick, Kovalchuk, Martinez, Brown, Phaneuf, it looks like it'll be awhile before it's over.
Jan 29 at 6:51
#72
Habs/Pens fan
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 768
Likes: 225
Good deal for both teams. Leafs get defense and Kings get parts for their rebuild. Don't know if this will put the Leafs over the edge though.
Jan 29 at 10:26
#73
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 178
Likes: 101
These prospects are a bunch of unknown. This return seems very underwhelming for LA since Muzzin has 2 years left not just 1.
Jan 29 at 10:53
#74
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 2,998
Likes: 533
Quoting: Brian2016
They really had to trade Muzzin here. They had a lot of leverage w/ TOR. The Leafs were desperate for a top 4 defensive D. Muzzin checks a lot of boxes for Dubas and the Babcock. It's not like TOR is giving up a top 10 pick for a rental. Late 1st rounders are not nearly as valuable as many people think.


I'm against the trade and not from a Toronto at and point. Kings needed Muzzin. Now our blue line is completely totaled.
Jan 29 at 10:54
#75
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 2,998
Likes: 533
Quoting: OpaqueZoo
Kings do need a rebuild. And with all those heavy deals, Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Quick, Kovalchuk, Martinez, Brown, Phaneuf, it looks like it'll be awhile before it's over.


You don't know anything about the Kings. Every smart kings fan with hockey sense knows that they just need a retool. Watch every Kings game for 10 years then talk to me.
 
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