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Leafs Embarrassment

Mar. 18, 2019 at 12:10 p.m.
#1
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This team is a joke. They're getting sickening to watch. You have maybe 5 players who legitimately look like they're trying on any given night. Reilly usually, hyman always, Andersen usually, Ennis usually (who's fairly ineffective regardless), Marner usually.

Guys who actually never give it 100%: Nylander, Matthews (could dominate the game, chooses not to), Kadri (last few years he's been amazing, invisible this year), ) Hainsey, Zaitsev, Sparks, Marleau, etc, etc.

Time to Fire Babcock IMO, this team has completely quit on him.
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Mar. 20, 2019 at 4:35 p.m.
#2
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Quoting: dzad96
This team is a joke. They're getting sickening to watch. You have maybe 5 players who legitimately look like they're trying on any given night. Reilly usually, hyman always, Andersen usually, Ennis usually (who's fairly ineffective regardless), Marner usually.

Guys who actually never give it 100%: Nylander, Matthews (could dominate the game, chooses not to), Kadri (last few years he's been amazing, invisible this year), ) Hainsey, Zaitsev, Sparks, Marleau, etc, etc.

Time to Fire Babcock IMO, this team has completely quit on him.


I don't agree with all your critique, but the "Fire Babcock", IMO that should happen as you suggest. Leafs management really need a better reason to do it now but a first round exit would give them cause.
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Mar. 20, 2019 at 4:38 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
I don't agree with all your critique, but the "Fire Babcock", IMO that should happen as you suggest. Leafs management really need a better reason to do it now but a first round exit would give them cause.


When is the last time Babcock has won a playoff series? Like 2013 or something like that? The guy is awesome at making average teams good. He's terrible at making good teams great. Just so happened in Detroit that he had one of the best rosters ever assembled.
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Mar. 20, 2019 at 4:43 p.m.
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Quoting: dzad96
When is the last time Babcock has won a playoff series? Like 2013 or something like that? The guy is awesome at making average teams good. He's terrible at making good teams great. Just so happened in Detroit that he had one of the best rosters ever assembled.


He's a poor game manager. He loves line matchups but doesn't do it well. My suggestion would be, let him be the practice coach and then have Keefe run the lineup and game. Leafs might have lost game 7 against Boston last year anyway, but Babcock decision sIMO was the main reason they lost. And you're right about his record. Maybe he should be head coach for international tournament but not an NHL schedule.
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Mar. 27, 2019 at 4:11 a.m.
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I might agree that Babcock probably isn't the best fit for the current roster. add that anytime Babs had any success, his defensive squads were impeccable (Olympics, World Cup, with Detroit cup teams he had guys like Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Chelios)
Mar. 29, 2019 at 1:30 a.m.
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TOR has major issues now and moving forward. It's gonna be a tough summer after they get knocked out by BOS in the 1st round. They overpaid Nylander, they overpaid Marleau, and they're gonna lose Gardiner and possibly have to trade Johnsson and/or Kapanen b/c of the cap crunch. These problems are real and serious. They'll never win 6-5 games in the playoffs, that just doesn't happen much.
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Mar. 29, 2019 at 1:31 a.m.
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Quoting: palhal
He's a poor game manager. He loves line matchups but doesn't do it well. My suggestion would be, let him be the practice coach and then have Keefe run the lineup and game. Leafs might have lost game 7 against Boston last year anyway, but Babcock decision sIMO was the main reason they lost. And you're right about his record. Maybe he should be head coach for international tournament but not an NHL schedule.


HAHAHA! can you imagine Babcock behind the bench but not coaching? Let's pay a guy $6M+ per season to be the practice coach!
Mar. 29, 2019 at 1:45 a.m.
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My guess is that even if TOR gets swept out in the 1st round by BOS, Babcock will not be bored this summer. He's gonna get another shot next season. But I can't see them beating BOS or TBL with their current roster. They have Matthews and Marner on ELC's this season and next year it'll be $20M+ combined.

I hated the Nylander deal when he signed it and I hate it just as much now. They set the bar too high for the Matthews deal and now Marner will want $10M+ too. Meanwhile, BOS has their 3 superstars locked in longterm for about $20M AAV combined. Tampa has Kucherov and Stamkos locked up longterm for $18M combined and Point will probably sign for around $7.5M. TOR's big 3 will cost over $30M!!! Insane.
Mar. 29, 2019 at 8:08 a.m.
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Quoting: Brian2016
HAHAHA! can you imagine Babcock behind the bench but not coaching? Let's pay a guy $6M+ per season to be the practice coach!


Well it was tongue in cheek.....He would have go be fired. Leafs spend at least 30 m, with the firing of Burke, Nonis, the VPs, Wilson and Caryle. Graboswki' buyout 18m. The necessary trade for Horton for Clarkson cost the Leafs 27.5m. So having pay a fired Babcock 24m....insignificant to Leaf owners Bell and Rogers. They will just raise our intercom rates to cover the loses.
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Mar. 29, 2019 at 4:19 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
Well it was tongue in cheek.....He would have go be fired. Leafs spend at least 30 m, with the firing of Burke, Nonis, the VPs, Wilson and Caryle. Graboswki' buyout 18m. The necessary trade for Horton for Clarkson cost the Leafs 27.5m. So having pay a fired Babcock 24m....insignificant to Leaf owners Bell and Rogers. They will just raise our intercom rates to cover the loses.


No doubt they'd be willing and capable of writing off the Babcock contract since it obviously doesn't count against the cap, but the Nylander deal is much more serious. I realize he's better than what he's shown this season, but there's a myriad of young, elite skill Forwards making less than $7M AAV around the league. Larkin, MacKinnon, Barkov, Gaudreau, and Pastrnak just to name a few. Dubas was backed into a corner and didn't wanna blow a chance at making a deep playoff run this season. If Nylander is worth $7M, surely Marner is worth $10M, right? At least that's how Marner's agent will see it. I expect another holdout this summer. Just think about it...TOR probably could've signed Kapanen and Johnsson for about the price of Nylander.
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Mar. 29, 2019 at 4:20 p.m.
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Quoting: Brian2016
No doubt they'd be willing and capable of writing off the Babcock contract since it obviously doesn't count against the cap, but the Nylander deal is much more serious. I realize he's better than what he's shown this season, but there's a myriad of young, elite skill Forwards making less than $7M AAV around the league. Larkin, MacKinnon, Barkov, Gaudreau, and Pastrnak just to name a few. Dubas was backed into a corner and didn't wanna blow a chance at making a deep playoff run this season. If Nylander is worth $7M, surely Marner is worth $10M, right? At least that's how Marner's agent will see it. I expect another holdout this summer. Just think about it...TOR probably could've signed Kapanen and Johnsson for about the price of Nylander.


Trade Nylander for a Dman who makes less money than he does. Sign at least one (hopefully both) of Johnson Kap.
Mar. 29, 2019 at 4:29 p.m.
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Quoting: Brian2016
No doubt they'd be willing and capable of writing off the Babcock contract since it obviously doesn't count against the cap, but the Nylander deal is much more serious. I realize he's better than what he's shown this season, but there's a myriad of young, elite skill Forwards making less than $7M AAV around the league. Larkin, MacKinnon, Barkov, Gaudreau, and Pastrnak just to name a few. Dubas was backed into a corner and didn't wanna blow a chance at making a deep playoff run this season. If Nylander is worth $7M, surely Marner is worth $10M, right? At least that's how Marner's agent will see it. I expect another holdout this summer. Just think about it...TOR probably could've signed Kapanen and Johnsson for about the price of Nylander.


I'll never understand why the Leafs signed that Nylander contract. And I don't blame Dubas entirely, it's the Leafs total management team that agreed (and admitting they know a whole lot more than me). But as you illustrate, just look at comparable throughout the league.....they overpaid Nylander by what about half million a year. At the time, Leafs were doing well and really didn't need Nylander. Maybe the the Leafs should have just let him sit out the year if the contract wasn't to their liking. Then the Matthews contract...no way Matthews is entitled to be the second highest paid player in the league. And now Marner...he looks at the Leafs comparable at as you suggest he should be make 10m, but league wide he shouldn't be paid as the second highest paid winger.
Leafs should be happy that some of their players are playing well and deserve big raises.....Marner, Johnsson and Kapanen. And if they all sign "fair" league wide contracts, and the Leafs are over the cap, so be it. someone will have to be traded. Unfortunately the Leafs have put themselves in a precedent where they overpay for their own RFAs, and now will be forced into a trade or two.
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Mar. 29, 2019 at 4:36 p.m.
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Quoting: dzad96
Trade Nylander for a Dman who makes less money than he does. Sign at least one (hopefully both) of Johnson Kap.


We don't know what the numbers will be, but the Leafs will likely be signing Johnsson, Kapanen and Marner to contracts. Then when they find themselves over the cap by 6.5m they have to make a trade....not for NHL Dman but for non cap futures. Then if a NHL Dman is traded for (a good idea) then it has to come from an equal contract being traded from the Leafs.

The signing of Nylander and Matthew to overpriced contracts (in my opinion), has led to this cycle of of the other RFAs thinking they deserve more $$$
Mar. 29, 2019 at 4:40 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
We don't know what the numbers will be, but the Leafs will likely be signing Johnsson, Kapanen and Marner to contracts. Then when they find themselves over the cap by 6.5m they have to make a trade....not for NHL Dman but for non cap futures. Then if a NHL Dman is traded for (a good idea) then it has to come from an equal contract being traded from the Leafs.

The signing of Nylander and Matthew to overpriced contracts (in my opinion), has led to this cycle of of the other RFAs thinking they deserve more $$$


They're not going to be 6.5 million over the cap...
Mar. 29, 2019 at 4:47 p.m.
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Quoting: dzad96
They're not going to be 6.5 million over the cap...


Just do themath, if they sign Kapanen and Johnsson and other to reasonable contracts and Marleau stays a Leaf.....I think it's 6.5m
Mar. 29, 2019 at 4:52 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
Just do themath, if they sign Kapanen and Johnsson and other to reasonable contracts and Marleau stays a Leaf.....I think it's 6.5m


I have it figured at 3 mil over with needing to sign a dman. So maybe 4-5 over without trades. You're basically right.
Mar. 29, 2019 at 10:30 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
I'll never understand why the Leafs signed that Nylander contract. And I don't blame Dubas entirely, it's the Leafs total management team that agreed (and admitting they know a whole lot more than me). But as you illustrate, just look at comparable throughout the league.....they overpaid Nylander by what about half million a year. At the time, Leafs were doing well and really didn't need Nylander. Maybe the the Leafs should have just let him sit out the year if the contract wasn't to their liking.


Its interesting how only handful of us here are able to recognize the overpayment on mentioned contracts. Nylanders is minor, but still makes precedens for both Kapanen and Johnsson. 90% of TML fans are just fine with Matthews contract, not being able to see that longterm it means losing depth for cap dump, which conditionally will lead to decline of results cause 5 ppl cant play all the lines in game.

Quoting: palhal
Then the Matthews contract...no way Matthews is entitled to be the second highest paid player in the league.


I would like to correct you again. Matthews actually is the highest paid player in League, cause 5 x 11,634M expanded means 8 x 15M ( cca )
Mar. 29, 2019 at 11:04 p.m.
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Quoting: Laudan
Its interesting how only handful of us here are able to recognize the overpayment on mentioned contracts. Nylanders is minor, but still makes precedens for both Kapanen and Johnsson. 90% of TML fans are just fine with Matthews contract, not being able to see that longterm it means losing depth for cap dump, which conditionally will lead to decline of results cause 5 ppl cant play all the lines in game.



I would like to correct you again. Matthews actually is the highest paid player in League, cause 5 x 11,634M expanded means 8 x 15M ( cca )


How is Matthews getting paid more than 12.5m McDavid. I could be wrong, but are you confusing the AAV for RFAs if they had been made offer sheets?

Glad you see the danger in overpaying players. Because then you have to unfairly squeezed other players or trade away player(s) for cap reasons. And certainly Nylander his "style" points does not match his production.
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Mar. 29, 2019 at 11:15 p.m.
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Edited Mar. 30, 2019 at 12:12 a.m.
Quoting: palhal
How is Matthews getting paid more than 12.5m McDavid. I could be wrong, but are you confusing the AAV for RFAs if they had been made offer sheets?


From some other thread :
Quoting: Laudan
Lets say for the sake of argument Matthews is as good as McDavid ( he isnt, but still )

McDavid signed 8 x 12,5M in 2017, which would be 13,7M in 2018 with Cap raise ( 6% ) and rounded to 10% cause of "inflation".

8 x 13,7M
7 x 12,5M
6 x 11,3M
5 x 10,1M

The above should be logical descending contracts for Matthews ofc after he would score 100 points in his second season and rolling another 100 this season. You can figure the overpayment in $$ / years of contract by yourself. Maybe not even a tragedy if it wouldnt make precedens for all the other contracts to be signed.

Two other names come to mind ....Draisaitl and Eichel, both marked as centers, both signed 2017-2018, both considered overpayment... so ideal comparables to Matthews

Draisaitl.............51 + 77...............8 x 8,5M ( 128 points in first two seasons, 217 with third ).........again if he would sign in 2018 with same stats, it would be 8 x 9,4M..........so 5 x 6,5M ( on spot )
Eichel.................56 + 57...............8 x 10M ( 113 points in first two seasons, 185 with third ).............again if he would sign in 2018 with same stats, it would be 8 x 11M..........so 5 x 8M ( overpayment )
Matthews..........63 + 69...............5 x 11,6M ( 132 points in first two seasons, 195 with third )

2M overpayment on this if Matthews would be McDavid's level and what i can read from this contract is he is the greedy one ( not Nylander ) and wants to hit UFA asap and move to whoever gives him more.....so another minus from me on his account from TML fan perspective

After those 5x 11,634M Chiarelli looks like genius with McDavid and Draisaitl 8y contracts......


Matthews

5 x 11,634
6 x 12,734
7 x 13,834
8 x 14,934

McDavid

8 x 13,7 if signed in summer 2018 ( 10% of rise for cap and "inflation" )

i hope im making it clear enough where i am coming from / going to .
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Apr. 1, 2019 at 10:40 a.m.
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Quoting: Laudan
From some other thread :


Matthews

5 x 11,634
6 x 12,734
7 x 13,834
8 x 14,934

McDavid

8 x 13,7 if signed in summer 2018 ( 10% of rise for cap and "inflation" )

i hope im making it clear enough where i am coming from / going to .


It's still irrelevant. Only thing that matters is cap Hit, Mcdavid has the highest cap hit, as he should.
Apr. 1, 2019 at 11:36 a.m.
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Quoting: dzad96
It's still irrelevant. Only thing that matters is cap Hit, Mcdavid has the highest cap hit, as he should.


You can interprete as you like it, fact is its overpayment and its dragging tone of garbage with it cause 63 + 69 got him the undeserved money, now watch what others will demand.....
Apr. 1, 2019 at 11:40 a.m.
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Quoting: Laudan
You can interprete as you like it, fact is its overpayment and its dragging tone of garbage with it cause 63 + 69 got him the undeserved money, now watch what others will demand.....


I don't think anyone else on the Leafs can make contract demands because of Matthews... He's your franchise player and number 1C. That's like saying Chiasson can demand big dollars in EDM because Mcdavid makes 12.5, thats a poor argument IMO. None of the guys the Leafs need to sign compare to Matthews except Marner. And even then Marner is a winger Matthews is a center, league wide it's just a fact Centers are way more valuable than wingers and get paid as such...
 
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