Matthews isn't even a shoe-in for top 3 centers in the league, let alone top 3 player in the league.

He is a very, very good player who played with Johnsson's terrible transition game and Kapanen's awful playmaking ability last season. His advanced metrics are dragged down by who he plays with (which is the most significant factor on a player's own metrics) but they are also inflated since he usually plays against second line forward groups. For me to list Matthews as a top 5 player, I need to see him play some better defence. More responsibility in his own zone, harder in the corners, and less giveaways. More takeaways.

His potential is through the roof, but McDavid and MacKinnon are shoe-ins for better players at the moment, and then you can argue for so many other players versus Matthews.

I don't expect you to appreciate how good Matthews is if you don't watch him. He takes 3rd and 4th line players and turns them into top line players all while scoring at the highest rate 5 on 5 in the league since he started. His 2 way game is also high end but the media doesn't talk about it because he's American. They love Marner. Every advanced stat calculated Matthews is in the top tier.
When I say top 3-5 it's more value than actual play right this second. Mcdavid and Crosby are the only two players I have above him IMO. Marner because his 2 way game is average is way down the list and he's not that great a goal scorer. His shot is only average and he is not extremely hard on the puck like Matthews who never gets taken off it when he has it.

Inflation of the salary cap lol

Matthews is better than MacKinnon. There isbso doubt about that. MacKinnon has a career high of like 50-60 pts till he played with Rantanen

Winger/center does matter. It's a fact it matters.
Marner CANT drive a line. He was away from Tavares for 20% of last year and his stats where one if worst in in the league. This has already been calculated. Dubas knows this stuff. They all do

We all are hockey nuts for the most part on here and watch plenty of Matthews to know what he is and is not and he's not a top 3 player in the league hands down and not a top 5 in the league in most people's opinions. I'd rank him around 8 to 11. There are too many good players that are game changers. When you talk about best players, who changes the game night in and night out for their team the most. I can with 100% certainty tell you Patrick Kane is a player ahead of Matthews even now at his age; he carried the offense on a bad team. Marchand, Ovy, Kucherov....all names ahead of Matthews in my opinion to name a few.

But those guys are not high end 2 way centres too which Matthews is. You don't seem to understand that. His possession and advanced stats are through the roof defensively

The cap increase has more than compensated for the rate of inflation over the years, which I do think is good.

If you apply the 10.6% of salary cap, you don't need to also adjust for inflation, because the salary cap has more than adjusted for inflation over the years.

In fact, the inflation has been lower than 2% per year over the last 9 years. So marner would make $7,273,000 ish, but if you *do* account for higher taxes in Ontario than in Illinois, then you can get closer to the $8.5M to $9.4M range, by my guess (I have not done calculations for taxes, nor do I know the Illinois income tax rate).

No I clearly understand. When you talk about who the best players are, these are guys that dictate the pace of the game and change the outcomes. I understand the value of a 2 way center....Toews in his day was one of the best if not the best in the league at it but I'd never put him ahead of Kane even though Kane doesn't do squat on defense.

Matthews is without a doubt a great player and a very high ceiling but to call him a top 3 to 5 player currently in the league is a reach to say the least. Too many better players in the league today. Marner, IMO, is a top 15 in the league...one of the smartest players on the ice. For that reason, Marner should get close to Matthews money. It's a Kane and Toews situation all over accept the roles are reversed with Marner and Matthews.

5.25% but that is going to probably go to 6% tax.

It's not about that at all. Every time someone signs a deal they sign a certain % of the cap. That is the number agents and GM ls focus on when getting the contract together. All marners comparables are about 11.1% over 5 years and roughly 18.5% added if he signed for 8 years. But Dubas over paid Nylander and Matthews both by 5% so I think Marner is entitled to the same 5%.
So 81.5 x .111 x 5% = about 9.5 over 5 years.
Or
81.5 x .111 x 18.5% x 5% = about 11.25 mil on an 8 year term MAX amount Marner should make.
These are not just my numbers this is what hundreds of people are calculating the contracts to be

This is hilarious tbh, Mackinnon is better than Matthews by a good amount rn. This is when you know the argument is not worth having.

I just can't think of more than 3-5 players you would pick to start your team if there was a fantasy draft of all players in the NHL.
Matthews scores the most right now 5 on 5 and also plays an elite 2 way game. I swear if he were Canadian they would be naming holidays after him already

It's not an argument. MacKinnon has show nothing in his career so far playing by himself like Matthews does right now. If you gave Matthews Rantanen he would score 60+ goals.
Not to mention Matthews is better on advanced statistic and different goal patterns. But you can believe that you want.
I also love MacKinnon, I'm from his home town, been watching him for 10+ years and I know how good he is

All of those in that last statement besides AM were UFA's so ofc they got overpaid

I barely even have him top 10 as a center (7-10)

You should be watching closer instead of judging every player on their advanced stats and goal patterns etc. Rantanen was nothing this year when Mackinnon wasn't in the lineup, you have it backwards. If Mackinnon didn't play this year Rantanen would probably have had like 40 points. Matthews has had Nylander, Kapanen, Johnsson its not like he's playing with AHLers.

Mackinnon over the past 2 seasons has shown he can single handedly change games with his speed he always plays against top lines and its a known fact that he drives that line with gabe and rants

Matthews played withOUT Nylander all season. Johnsson was a healthy scratch till he played with Matthews and Kapanen is actually a 3 rd line player at best. I do watch. There is a reason they just took below league average contracts for 3-4 years

I know every time someone signs, they sign a percentage of the cap... Kane's 10.6% of cap for a 5-year term is what I originally based the Marner signing off of. That is what the lion's share of this conversation has been about.

If Marner signs for 8 years, he should not take anymore than 13% of the cap hit at the time of his signing, which would equate to a $10.6M x 8 years deal. That makes sense as the max amount, given Eichel signed last season for $10M x 8 years.


Johnsson was a healthy scratch because Babcock likes real gud pros like Patty Marleau and Brownie, not because Johnsson wasn't at least worth an extended look with Matthews, or at least Kadri. The fact that Johnsson stayed on the 4th line for so long, and that Ennis stayed at the bottom the whole year, is kind of a joke.

Yeah, I'd say Kapanen is middle of the road (MOR) ish second line RW. Good for a 3rd liner, that's for sure.

Of course, if you're trying to start a team Matthews is someone you would pick, *because of the high ceiling, not because of his performance in the present/past time-frame.

Ya it's hard to argue how good Mack is. Even if we say him, I can't think of anyone else really. If you were building a team on skill and age wise

They both had 20G's this year and are both probably better than Nylander rn. And when was Johnsson a healthy scratch?? This isn't even the argument, to suggest Mackinnon isn't as good as Matthews is just stupid.

Mcdavid, thats literally it, and even then you can argue macks financial benefits

I still say he's entitled the 5% extra Dubas gave the other two. I don't like it but it just is what it is

I get Nylander had a bad performance this past season, because he drank too many beers and didn't go for runs back in Sweden, but I really can't get behind them being better than Nylander.