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Pittsburgh Penguins signed Zach Trotman (2 Years / $700,000 AAV)

Was this a good signing?
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Jun. 26, 2019 at 1:05 p.m.
#1
Zach Trotman has signed a new contract with the Pittsburgh Penguins.
Standard Contract (Extension)
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SIGNED BY: Jim Rutherford
Length: 2 years
Value: $1,400,000
Expiry Status: UFA
Cap % Tooltip: 0.86
Signing Team: Logo of the Pittsburgh PenguinsPittsburgh Penguins
Signing Date: Jun. 26, 2019
Source: CapFriendly

Zach Trotman signed a 2 year, $1,400,000 contract with the Pittsburgh Penguins on Jun. 26, 2019. The contract has a cap hit of $700,000.

SEASONClauseCap HitTooltipAAV TooltipP. BonusesTooltipS. BonusesTooltipBase SalaryTooltipTotal SalaryTooltipMinors SalTooltip
2019-20$700,000$700,000$0$0$700,000$700,000$400,000
2020-21$700,000$700,000$0$0$700,000$700,000$400,000
TOTAL$1,400,000$1,400,000$0$0$1,400,000$1,400,000$800,000
Jun. 26, 2019 at 1:50 p.m.
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Trotman brings no offense and middle-of-the-road defense. If he's the 2nd pairing defenseman in Wilkes-Barre that's fine, but if he's our top RHD I'm unimpressed. Good thing Ruhwedel is standing in his way for Pittsburgh's sake.
Jun. 26, 2019 at 2:24 p.m.
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Quoting: Jake_H
Trotman brings no offense and middle-of-the-road defense. If he's the 2nd pairing defenseman in Wilkes-Barre that's fine, but if he's our top RHD I'm unimpressed. Good thing Ruhwedel is standing in his way for Pittsburgh's sake.


Still better then most Leafs d men
Jun. 26, 2019 at 3:17 p.m.
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28 he's had his chance. Bring in a kid to play.
Jun. 26, 2019 at 6:28 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
28 he's had his chance. Bring in a kid to play.

Like who? The only younger RHD in the system that can start the year in WBS are Birks, Erkamps, and Siebenaler, and you're not going to find someone significantly younger and better than Trotman in the UFA market. The Pens could take a gamble on one of the Group 6 guys that all have tons of spots, but besides them every other free agent is only a year or two younger than him. The Pens need veterans in Wilkes-Barre, and even though they could do better than Trotman they still need a player like him.
Jun. 26, 2019 at 9:27 p.m.
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Quoting: Jake_H
Like who? The only younger RHD in the system that can start the year in WBS are Birks, Erkamps, and Siebenaler, and you're not going to find someone significantly younger and better than Trotman in the UFA market. The Pens could take a gamble on one of the Group 6 guys that all have tons of spots, but besides them every other free agent is only a year or two younger than him. The Pens need veterans in Wilkes-Barre, and even though they could do better than Trotman they still need a player like him.


honestly I would scout for a UFA who has potential. that's what the slots are for man. You got to pick some young guys up or the cupboards will remain bare. We know Trotman isn't giong to be an NHL player at this point. Use the farm system accordingly . I get it, it's hard. But that's what scouts are paid for.
Jun. 27, 2019 at 1:54 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
honestly I would scout for a UFA who has potential. that's what the slots are for man. You got to pick some young guys up or the cupboards will remain bare. We know Trotman isn't giong to be an NHL player at this point. Use the farm system accordingly . I get it, it's hard. But that's what scouts are paid for.


You're missing the point of having a veteran on the farm team, as well as ignoring how absolutely barren the free agent market is for defensemen.

The AHL isn't that different structurally from the NHL, so think on what happens to teams who rush defensemen and overload them with responsibilities. A guy like Trotman eats the tough assignments at first so that a guy like Addison can grow into his role. If you throw these guys into the deep end it wrecks most of their development, and for lack of a better term defensemen are the most delicate. Even guys like Letang and Ekman-Larsson needed time in the AHL and sheltered roles for awhile, and it's borderline journeymen who do the sheltering.

Do you know how many right-shot UFA defensemen there are listed on Capfriendly that are under the age of 25? Ten. Pittsburgh actually already has two of them under contract in the AHL, and they're probably going to suck even in Wheeling. Sure the Pens could pick up a marginal guy like Jordan Subban or Jack Dougherty, but if the AHL club goes into the new season with a guy like that as their best defensemen the team is going to suck. Teams that suck spend just as much time keeping fishing the puck out of their own net as they do teaching the guys who are there explicitly for the purpose of getting better at hockey.
Jun. 27, 2019 at 2:31 p.m.
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Quoting: Jake_H
You're missing the point of having a veteran on the farm team, as well as ignoring how absolutely barren the free agent market is for defensemen.

The AHL isn't that different structurally from the NHL, so think on what happens to teams who rush defensemen and overload them with responsibilities. A guy like Trotman eats the tough assignments at first so that a guy like Addison can grow into his role. If you throw these guys into the deep end it wrecks most of their development, and for lack of a better term defensemen are the most delicate. Even guys like Letang and Ekman-Larsson needed time in the AHL and sheltered roles for awhile, and it's borderline journeymen who do the sheltering.

Do you know how many right-shot UFA defensemen there are listed on Capfriendly that are under the age of 25? Ten. Pittsburgh actually already has two of them under contract in the AHL, and they're probably going to suck even in Wheeling. Sure the Pens could pick up a marginal guy like Jordan Subban or Jack Dougherty, but if the AHL club goes into the new season with a guy like that as their best defensemen the team is going to suck. Teams that suck spend just as much time keeping fishing the puck out of their own net as they do teaching the guys who are there explicitly for the purpose of getting better at hockey.


I think you under rate a lot of players.
So many people have this idea that these young players all suck and some how if you are older you are the "better player."
That's just not true, and you know that's not true if you look at the NHL and see players younger than him playing full time roles there.
There are players who come out the NCAA undrafted, players who come out of europe, etc. Look at Riikola. He came out undrafted.
Tell me he couldn't play that role. He's better than that role to be honest.
You have to have faith in younger players. This idea that you clutch onto everyone just because of familiarity is bad news. This is why you have things like scouts. You don't need to find a whole team of these guys. Yes your prospects are going to play to develop. But truth be told, they don't "need to be sheltered" No one is sheltering players down there for any significant length of time. What do you think, you go from a sheltered role in the AHL directly to the NHL. It doesn't work that way. Learn the system in a few games and get in there and show what you can do. They only get better playing against better players. You shouldn't be sheltering a player like Addison if you want him to come in and be a 2RHD. He should be playing 1RHD minutes in wbs. That's the only way you are going to know if he's good enough to actually play that role.

You look at what is there.
Addison
Almari
neither of which should sit.
Riikola

and you are at 3 defense men.
We can sit here and debate the facts, but the reason there are no defensive prospects on this team is because they keep signing guys who are 28 years old and never going to be NHL level defense men under the guise that you need vets.

If you absolutely can't find anyone, then I under stand you sign someone to come and fill in. But you have a whole scouting department there and you are going to tell me between the CHL, NCAA< and Europe they can't find 3 guys to come in and play AHL level quality hockey who are undrafted and deserving of a chance. I'm going to call bs on that.

You end up putting a team together year after year with older guys who are 26+ and then say, we have no depth, no prospects no nothing......
Well of course we don't. We stacked the AHL team full of players who have no hope of ever playing the next level.
Jun. 27, 2019 at 3:24 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
I think you under rate a lot of players.
So many people have this idea that these young players all suck and some how if you are older you are the "better player."
That's just not true, and you know that's not true if you look at the NHL and see players younger than him playing full time roles there.
There are players who come out the NCAA undrafted, players who come out of europe, etc. Look at Riikola. He came out undrafted.
Tell me he couldn't play that role. He's better than that role to be honest.
You have to have faith in younger players. This idea that you clutch onto everyone just because of familiarity is bad news. This is why you have things like scouts. You don't need to find a whole team of these guys. Yes your prospects are going to play to develop. But truth be told, they don't "need to be sheltered" No one is sheltering players down there for any significant length of time. What do you think, you go from a sheltered role in the AHL directly to the NHL. It doesn't work that way. Learn the system in a few games and get in there and show what you can do. They only get better playing against better players. You shouldn't be sheltering a player like Addison if you want him to come in and be a 2RHD. He should be playing 1RHD minutes in wbs. That's the only way you are going to know if he's good enough to actually play that role.

You look at what is there.
Addison
Almari
neither of which should sit.
Riikola

and you are at 3 defense men.
We can sit here and debate the facts, but the reason there are no defensive prospects on this team is because they keep signing guys who are 28 years old and never going to be NHL level defense men under the guise that you need vets.

If you absolutely can't find anyone, then I under stand you sign someone to come and fill in. But you have a whole scouting department there and you are going to tell me between the CHL, NCAA< and Europe they can't find 3 guys to come in and play AHL level quality hockey who are undrafted and deserving of a chance. I'm going to call bs on that.

You end up putting a team together year after year with older guys who are 26+ and then say, we have no depth, no prospects no nothing......
Well of course we don't. We stacked the AHL team full of players who have no hope of ever playing the next level.


You don't even have the facts right, and even if you did you're vastly overrating the free agent pool and the caliber of guys comimg out of college/juniors.

Wilkes-Barre currently has three AHL level defensemen signed for next season: Czuczman, Trotman, and Almari. Riikola is most likely signing a one way contract and hanging in the press box with Ruhwedel for most of the season, Addison needs to play out the year in Juniors, and the rest of the group (Birks, Erkamps, Abt, Lizotte, Siebenaler) are either borderline ECHL players that need years of development or straight garbage. These aren't players you fill a competent AHL roster with, you give them a few games here or there or glue them on the bottom pairing with an actual AHL defenseman. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that these guys are young, they're bad.

Maybe in a few years one of them will be less bad and stick in the AHL, but expecting any young guy in Wilkes-Barre except Almari to ever be an NHL option is foolish. The best part is, those five guys are about as good as anyone you're going to find looking for a contract this time of year. Sometimes a potential AHL gem like Riikola or Bengtsson will fall from the stars overseas, but you're lucky to find one every few years. If you didn't draft them, sign them out of development camp, or nab them after a Hobey Baker nomination, they're probably garbage. No one they could have signed the last few summers would have ever turned into a serious prospect.

Honestly, when's the last time a team signed some undrafted, unnoticed, unscouted player and they turned into a serious prospect? The Pens currently have four undrafted defensemen in their development camp, none of them impressive, two of which are too young for the AHL. Maybe one guy ends up in Wilkes-Barre this season, but you're still left needing AHL vets to fill out the roster.

Aa for why there's no depth, the Penguins have been trading and whiffing on draft picks for years. They've added a few UFA's that either impressed in camp or were on the national radar from college, but there's no substitute for the draft. At one point the Pens defensive system had Maatta, Dumoulin, Harrington, Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, and Pouliot all either in the AHL, on the waiver bubble, or a year away from turning pro. How? The draft. You can't build a farm system with free agents, the talent isn't there. You'll occasionally nab a Prow or a Sheary or an Aston-Reese but a good system has a bunch of those guys, and when you draft rarely and miss hard on the picks you do make, you're not going to develop anything.
Jun. 27, 2019 at 3:46 p.m.
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Quoting: Jake_H
You don't even have the facts right, and even if you did you're vastly overrating the free agent pool and the caliber of guys comimg out of college/juniors.

Wilkes-Barre currently has three AHL level defensemen signed for next season: Czuczman, Trotman, and Almari. Riikola is most likely signing a one way contract and hanging in the press box with Ruhwedel for most of the season, Addison needs to play out the year in Juniors, and the rest of the group (Birks, Erkamps, Abt, Lizotte, Siebenaler) are either borderline ECHL players that need years of development or straight garbage. These aren't players you fill a competent AHL roster with, you give them a few games here or there or glue them on the bottom pairing with an actual AHL defenseman. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that these guys are young, they're bad.

Maybe in a few years one of them will be less bad and stick in the AHL, but expecting any young guy in Wilkes-Barre except Almari to ever be an NHL option is foolish. The best part is, those five guys are about as good as anyone you're going to find looking for a contract this time of year. Sometimes a potential AHL gem like Riikola or Bengtsson will fall from the stars overseas, but you're lucky to find one every few years. If you didn't draft them, sign them out of development camp, or nab them after a Hobey Baker nomination, they're probably garbage. No one they could have signed the last few summers would have ever turned into a serious prospect.

Honestly, when's the last time a team signed some undrafted, unnoticed, unscouted player and they turned into a serious prospect? The Pens currently have four undrafted defensemen in their development camp, none of them impressive, two of which are too young for the AHL. Maybe one guy ends up in Wilkes-Barre this season, but you're still left needing AHL vets to fill out the roster.

Aa for why there's no depth, the Penguins have been trading and whiffing on draft picks for years. They've added a few UFA's that either impressed in camp or were on the national radar from college, but there's no substitute for the draft. At one point the Pens defensive system had Maatta, Dumoulin, Harrington, Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, and Pouliot all either in the AHL, on the waiver bubble, or a year away from turning pro. How? The draft. You can't build a farm system with free agents, the talent isn't there. You'll occasionally nab a Prow or a Sheary or an Aston-Reese but a good system has a bunch of those guys, and when you draft rarely and miss hard on the picks you do make, you're not going to develop anything.


Czuczman, Trotman were both just signed. You act like they were on long term contracts. They were not. Which was he whole point to begin with.
You huff and puff he but you really don't say anything. One of Riikola or Chad R will be in WBS next year. Pick your poison. They aren't holding onto 8 defense man as a team tight up against the cap. That isn't even remotely even worth considering. I did misjudge addison age, I thought he was 20 this year, next year.
But that doesn't get rid of the fact that the are not bringing in youth to fill these roles.

Also stop trying to say there is no talent in undrafted free agents. Panarin was an undrafted free agent. There is a whole list of guys who were undrafted guys who made it to the NHL level. Furthermore, they don't have to all make it to the NHL level, they only need be as good as the older guy they are replacing who was never going to make it there, with the possibility that maybe because they are younger they can develop into that guy.
There are players like that out there. You can look at any league and they are there. Guys who are late bloomers, didn't hit their stride till 22-23, and are deserving of at least a look. Guys who maybe were drafted and were never signed, but now maybe ready. There are a lot of players like that out there. The problem is people like you clutch onto what you have, and aren't willing to risk signing a younger player. Hell CBJ signed Kukan in what 2015, he's a solid younger guy who might eventually turn into a bottom pairing guy, he has a better chance than Trottman.
If they put the effort into signing 1 or 2 guys like this every year you wouldn't be in a situation where the cupboard is so bare. The level of the player has nothing to do with their age.
There are younger players out there undrafted. They are just as good. Yes there will be a small learning curve but if you can play hockey you can play hockey.
Use a farm team accordingly. give the opportunity, that's what it's their for. It's not going to harm other players development. If anything it will make them more responsible players and help them learn to not make mistakes that put other people in bad positions.
Jun. 27, 2019 at 6:30 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
Czuczman, Trotman were both just signed. You act like they were on long term contracts. They were not. Which was he whole point to begin with.
You huff and puff he but you really don't say anything. One of Riikola or Chad R will be in WBS next year. Pick your poison. They aren't holding onto 8 defense man as a team tight up against the cap. That isn't even remotely even worth considering. I did misjudge addison age, I thought he was 20 this year, next year.
But that doesn't get rid of the fact that the are not bringing in youth to fill these roles.

Also stop trying to say there is no talent in undrafted free agents. Panarin was an undrafted free agent. There is a whole list of guys who were undrafted guys who made it to the NHL level. Furthermore, they don't have to all make it to the NHL level, they only need be as good as the older guy they are replacing who was never going to make it there, with the possibility that maybe because they are younger they can develop into that guy.
There are players like that out there. You can look at any league and they are there. Guys who are late bloomers, didn't hit their stride till 22-23, and are deserving of at least a look. Guys who maybe were drafted and were never signed, but now maybe ready. There are a lot of players like that out there. The problem is people like you clutch onto what you have, and aren't willing to risk signing a younger player. Hell CBJ signed Kukan in what 2015, he's a solid younger guy who might eventually turn into a bottom pairing guy, he has a better chance than Trottman.
If they put the effort into signing 1 or 2 guys like this every year you wouldn't be in a situation where the cupboard is so bare. The level of the player has nothing to do with their age.
There are younger players out there undrafted. They are just as good. Yes there will be a small learning curve but if you can play hockey you can play hockey.
Use a farm team accordingly. give the opportunity, that's what it's their for. It's not going to harm other players development. If anything it will make them more responsible players and help them learn to not make mistakes that put other people in bad positions.


So what's your ideal D corps for Wilkes-Barre this year, then? If they build the team entirely out of guys already in the system you're looking at:

Almeida-Birks
Abt-Erkamps
Lizotte-Siebenaler

Now that team is absolute trash, and it's still really bad even if you drop in one of Riikola or Ruhwedel (who both spent the majority of the year in Pittsburgh just last season). So let's say one of them comes down, and the Pens land a guy like Dean Kukan (why he's your go-to example I don't know). Now the lineup looks like:

Riikola-Nonexistent UFA
Almeida-Birks
Abt-Erkamps

So now you have a guy who's either never played professional hockey or who's never played in North America on your top pairing, your 2nd pairing has one ok defenseman on it who and will probably get shelled, and your 3rd pair has two guys that are ECHL level or worse. Without strong drafted players coming in or signing veterans to fill holes this is the best you can do, and it's trash. That defensive group is not only going to get destroyed and leave the two prospect goalies in WBS out to dry on a nightly basis, they'll hamstring the entire forward group by making them play defense and puck retrieval for 75% of the night. You can't fill a team with random garbage for the sake of it and expect NHL players to be made.

Side note, Panarin is literally the best example available and yet you make no mention of the other big foreign free agent that year, Sergei Plotnikov. All of these guys are gambles, and almost all of them turn out to be AHL caliber at best. Specifically,

Quote:
Furthermore, they don't have to all make it to the NHL level, they only need be as good as the older guy they are replacing who was never going to make it there, with the possibility that maybe because they are younger they can develop into that guy.


These guys practically don't exist in summer free agency. The college guys are almost all signed or committed for the fall, and anyone let go by a team who's young enough to still have "time to develop" isn't going to outperform a known entity. You're left with overseas coinflips (which are a nice gamble but not something you build a team around) and garbage guys like the ones who fill out development rosters. If you want to argue for different veterans that's fine, but you're arguing against having guys who fill the veteran role entirely and that's asinine.
Jun. 28, 2019 at 1:24 a.m.
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Edited Jun. 28, 2019 at 1:31 a.m.
Quoting: Jake_H
So.............


Quoting: pharrow
I think.............


I’m thoroughly impressed that 2 people can have such an INTENSE and detailed back-and-forth conversation about marginal AHL D-Men. I love me my AHL hockey and I think I can go off on tangents but wow, you guys give me hope that I’m not totally nuts.

Of course, the rest of the room is sorta staring, and starting to back away slowly. But I’m glad you’re having this conversation.

One thing I would consider is, by my math, with remaining RFA’s likely to be resigned, PGH will be at 48 contracts. Meaning they would have just 1 or 2 spots for incoming ELC’s (presumably they have a draft pick or two they want to sign). They’ve signed several verteran AHL’ers this off season. Not sure if it’s the best use of their 50 contract slots.
Jun. 28, 2019 at 1:33 a.m.
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Quoting: Jake_H
So what's your ideal D corps for Wilkes-Barre this year, then? If they build the team entirely out of guys already in the system you're looking at:

Almeida-Birks
Abt-Erkamps
Lizotte-Siebenaler

Now that team is absolute trash, and it's still really bad even if you drop in one of Riikola or Ruhwedel (who both spent the majority of the year in Pittsburgh just last season). So let's say one of them comes down, and the Pens land a guy like Dean Kukan (why he's your go-to example I don't know). Now the lineup looks like:

Riikola-Nonexistent UFA
Almeida-Birks
Abt-Erkamps

So now you have a guy who's either never played professional hockey or who's never played in North America on your top pairing, your 2nd pairing has one ok defenseman on it who and will probably get shelled, and your 3rd pair has two guys that are ECHL level or worse. Without strong drafted players coming in or signing veterans to fill holes this is the best you can do, and it's trash. That defensive group is not only going to get destroyed and leave the two prospect goalies in WBS out to dry on a nightly basis, they'll hamstring the entire forward group by making them play defense and puck retrieval for 75% of the night. You can't fill a team with random garbage for the sake of it and expect NHL players to be made.

Side note, Panarin is literally the best example available and yet you make no mention of the other big foreign free agent that year, Sergei Plotnikov. All of these guys are gambles, and almost all of them turn out to be AHL caliber at best. Specifically,

Quote:
Furthermore, they don't have to all make it to the NHL level, they only need be as good as the older guy they are replacing who was never going to make it there, with the possibility that maybe because they are younger they can develop into that guy.


These guys practically don't exist in summer free agency. The college guys are almost all signed or committed for the fall, and anyone let go by a team who's young enough to still have "time to develop" isn't going to outperform a known entity. You're left with overseas coinflips (which are a nice gamble but not something you build a team around) and garbage guys like the ones who fill out development rosters. If you want to argue for different veterans that's fine, but you're arguing against having guys who fill the veteran role entirely and that's asinine.


I don't really think you are getting the argument. I know they aren't going to find 3 of these guys at once. But like I said, if you bring 1 in a year, you don't have that problem. And they don't do that. It's not like there are not players to be signed. From the NCAA Jimmy Schuldt, Bobby Nardella, Brady Keeper, Grant Hutton, Cooper Zech, were all signed.
Mattias Goransson is from the NCAA he's still not signed. He played good minutes for UMass-Lowell.
Derek Daschke is at UO miami, unsigned, but probably returning to school but still unsigned.
Nick Wolff is unsigned....which is a prime candidate of someone that could sign. He was a solid player for Minnesota-Duluth.
Colton Poolman of North Dakota.
Collin Saccoman is a decent prospect.
Connor Mackey might be a guy who at 22 could be interested in jumping over for a chance.

I mean that's just out the NCAA. There are at least 3 guys there who I think could put up minutes in the AHL. Especially Wolff who has really good size and speed.
So lets not pretend they can't find guys. There are players out there. They need a chance. You will never know though if you constantly only keep signing 28-29 year old players.
The truth is a lot of those players are coming from schools with solid programs that play good competition. It's not a huge jump to the AHL level.
SIgn one a year and then add your picks, and over 4 years or so you will fill out a defense core. But if they continue to sign 28 year olds who will never make that jump, they will never have a prospect pool that looks like anything.
Just look at what they have done with the forward group. 8 of the 14 are 23 and younger. The oldest is 27, There are only 3 guys there older than 26, most of which probably won't be back after this year. Clearly, they want the younger players there to develop and build a prospect pool. It should be no different for the defense. Believe me, the younger players know they have a job to do there too. It can't be all about the forwards.
There are older players in europe as well that are 23-24 who have the skill level to help at the AHL level and possibly advance. Riikola wasn't an anomaly in a bubble. They are there. You have to be willing to bring them in. Instead they sign 28 year old guys to 2 year contracts. So now out of your 6 open spots you got 2 guys there with no potential to develop.
And if they keep signing guys like that it will stay that way. At some point you have to make the commitment to say, hey we want to bring in 1-2 young guys a year. They haven't made that commitment and it shows. Because if they did, their D core would be under 26 years old and cycling those who can't make it out after they are hitting their prime to bring in someone else who can have a shot. Let some other team horde old players.
Jun. 28, 2019 at 12:05 p.m.
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Quoting: rebecca
I’m thoroughly impressed that 2 people can have such an INTENSE and detailed back-and-forth conversation about marginal AHL D-Men. I love me my AHL hockey and I think I can go off on tangents but wow, you guys give me hope that I’m not totally nuts.

Of course, the rest of the room is sorta staring, and starting to back away slowly. But I’m glad you’re having this conversation.

One thing I would consider is, by my math, with remaining RFA’s likely to be resigned, PGH will be at 48 contracts. Meaning they would have just 1 or 2 spots for incoming ELC’s (presumably they have a draft pick or two they want to sign). They’ve signed several verteran AHL’ers this off season. Not sure if it’s the best use of their 50 contract slots.


This is what happens when the entire Penguins system either misses the playoffs or gets swept, mixed with being a season ticket holder in Wilkes-Barre for over a decade, combined with being out of a job and it being too hot to do anything outside during the longest days of the year.

Let me assure you that we are in fact totally nuts, and that's fine. If I counted right the Pens will have used 46 contract slots once all the RFA's they've qualified are signed, and Addison and Hallander will both come off that total if they return to juniors/overseas. Even if you assume Pittsburgh is going to keep Jarry and carry three goalies there's still room at add to the AHL and NHL teams.
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Jun. 28, 2019 at 12:54 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
These guys practically don't exist in summer free agency. The college guys are almost all signed or committed for the fall, and anyone let go by a team who's young enough to still have "time to develop" isn't going to outperform a known entity. You're left with overseas coinflips (which are a nice gamble but not something you build a team around) and garbage guys like the ones who fill out development rosters. If you want to argue for different veterans that's fine, but you're arguing against having guys who fill the veteran role entirely and that's asinine.


I don't really think you are getting the argument. I know they aren't going to find 3 of these guys at once. But like I said, if you bring 1 in a year, you don't have that problem. And they don't do that. It's not like there are not players to be signed. From the NCAA Jimmy Schuldt, Bobby Nardella, Brady Keeper, Grant Hutton, Cooper Zech, were all signed.
Mattias Goransson is from the NCAA he's still not signed. He played good minutes for UMass-Lowell.
Derek Daschke is at UO miami, unsigned, but probably returning to school but still unsigned.
Nick Wolff is unsigned....which is a prime candidate of someone that could sign. He was a solid player for Minnesota-Duluth.
Colton Poolman of North Dakota.
Collin Saccoman is a decent prospect.
Connor Mackey might be a guy who at 22 could be interested in jumping over for a chance.

I mean that's just out the NCAA. There are at least 3 guys there who I think could put up minutes in the AHL. Especially Wolff who has really good size and speed.
So lets not pretend they can't find guys. There are players out there. They need a chance. You will never know though if you constantly only keep signing 28-29 year old players.
The truth is a lot of those players are coming from schools with solid programs that play good competition. It's not a huge jump to the AHL level.
SIgn one a year and then add your picks, and over 4 years or so you will fill out a defense core. But if they continue to sign 28 year olds who will never make that jump, they will never have a prospect pool that looks like anything.
Just look at what they have done with the forward group. 8 of the 14 are 23 and younger. The oldest is 27, There are only 3 guys there older than 26, most of which probably won't be back after this year. Clearly, they want the younger players there to develop and build a prospect pool. It should be no different for the defense. Believe me, the younger players know they have a job to do there too. It can't be all about the forwards.
There are older players in europe as well that are 23-24 who have the skill level to help at the AHL level and possibly advance. Riikola wasn't an anomaly in a bubble. They are there. You have to be willing to bring them in. Instead they sign 28 year old guys to 2 year contracts. So now out of your 6 open spots you got 2 guys there with no potential to develop.
And if they keep signing guys like that it will stay that way. At some point you have to make the commitment to say, hey we want to bring in 1-2 young guys a year. They haven't made that commitment and it shows. Because if they did, their D core would be under 26 years old and cycling those who can't make it out after they are hitting their prime to bring in someone else who can have a shot. Let some other team horde old players.[/quote]

Let me be clear. I have zero problem with Pittsburgh signing young guys out of college or overseas in the hope that maybe they turn into something. In fact Pittsburgh has been one of the better teams at doing that the past few years, finding Conor Sheary and nabbing two Hobey Baker finalists in Ethan Prow and Zach Aston-Reese. Pittsburgh scouts and signs these guys all the time, and in the last two years they heavily recruited top free agents that went elsewhere like Brickley and Butcher.

You've conflated the fact that Pittsburgh hasn't signed these guys with the idea that they have no desire to, and further muddied things by suggesting that younger UFA's and overseas signings occupy the same space on a roster as veterans. If the Pens has signed a guy or two out of college this past spring, they'd still sign guys like Czuczman or Trotman to fill out the roster because the AHL team needs talent to win and veterans to lead, and without a consistent flow of drafted players who can turn into those veterans over the years there's no other substitute. The Penguins have had two or three UFA defensemen every year since the drafting pipeline on D dried up because you cannot routinely find and recruit guys that are skilled enough to replace established AHL players.

Pittsburgh is out there every year looking for young talent, and almost every year they bring someone in. They can still sign a free agent vet and bring in a guy from europe or the KHL. They won't find anyyone from college because college guys really don't turn pro in the summer, but they'll be scouting every potential guy who wants to turn next spring and they'll probabky sign somebody good. All that is great and a sign of a strong organization, but your suggestion that the Penguins should rarely or never sign veterans is wrong. You'll never recruit and hit on enough undrafted UFA's to ice a competent roster, and the without the consistent talent of draft picks you can't run a youthful defense.

Let's say the Penguins had managed to sign Joe Duszak a few months ago and he was a lock for the AHL. The defense with him and without vets would look like:
Almari-Duszak
Abt-Birks
Lizotte-Erkamps
That defense is going to get caved in, every night, all season, and that's before Pittsburgh takes a guy or two. You can even add another guy like Jimmy Schuldt, but the team won't be deep enough or talented enough to work. Now the only ways to improve that unit and give the forwards a working defense are:
1.) Hop in your time machine and get Jim Rutherford to keep his picks and draft better, or
2.) Sign some free agents

I would absolutely love to see another youth movement on defense in Wilkes-Barre. 2011-2015 were some of the most fun teams to watch defensively, and they were lights out for incredible stretches. But you're not going to get that through free agency, the numbers aren't there and the talent isnt there.
Jun. 28, 2019 at 5:45 p.m.
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Quoting: Jake_H
I

Let me be clear. I have zero problem with Pittsburgh signing young guys out of college or overseas in the hope that maybe they turn into something. In fact Pittsburgh has been one of the better teams at doing that the past few years, finding Conor Sheary and nabbing two Hobey Baker finalists in Ethan Prow and Zach Aston-Reese. Pittsburgh scouts and signs these guys all the time, and in the last two years they heavily recruited top free agents that went elsewhere like Brickley and Butcher.

You've conflated the fact that Pittsburgh hasn't signed these guys with the idea that they have no desire to, and further muddied things by suggesting that younger UFA's and overseas signings occupy the same space on a roster as veterans. If the Pens has signed a guy or two out of college this past spring, they'd still sign guys like Czuczman or Trotman to fill out the roster because the AHL team needs talent to win and veterans to lead, and without a consistent flow of drafted players who can turn into those veterans over the years there's no other substitute. The Penguins have had two or three UFA defensemen every year since the drafting pipeline on D dried up because you cannot routinely find and recruit guys that are skilled enough to replace established AHL players.

Pittsburgh is out there every year looking for young talent, and almost every year they bring someone in. They can still sign a free agent vet and bring in a guy from europe or the KHL. They won't find anyyone from college because college guys really don't turn pro in the summer, but they'll be scouting every potential guy who wants to turn next spring and they'll probabky sign somebody good. All that is great and a sign of a strong organization, but your suggestion that the Penguins should rarely or never sign veterans is wrong. You'll never recruit and hit on enough undrafted UFA's to ice a competent roster, and the without the consistent talent of draft picks you can't run a youthful defense.

Let's say the Penguins had managed to sign Joe Duszak a few months ago and he was a lock for the AHL. The defense with him and without vets would look like:
Almari-Duszak
Abt-Birks
Lizotte-Erkamps
That defense is going to get caved in, every night, all season, and that's before Pittsburgh takes a guy or two. You can even add another guy like Jimmy Schuldt, but the team won't be deep enough or talented enough to work. Now the only ways to improve that unit and give the forwards a working defense are:
1.) Hop in your time machine and get Jim Rutherford to keep his picks and draft better, or
2.) Sign some free agents

I would absolutely love to see another youth movement on defense in Wilkes-Barre. 2011-2015 were some of the most fun teams to watch defensively, and they were lights out for incredible stretches. But you're not going to get that through free agency, the numbers aren't there and the talent isnt there.


look, how many defensive guys you see there signed till they are 30 or actually are 30?

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/bluejackets
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/hurricanes
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/devils 1
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/islanders
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/rangers
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers 1
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/capitals

You look at the comparable ages and you being to realize, the penguins are holding onto older players, who have no chance to reach the NHL, while the whole rest of the league is filling their AHL roster with youth on their back end.
It is a matter or will. You can't keep stacking your back end with 28 year old guys signed till they are 30 and saying, it's fine.
If the WHOLE rest of the league can do it, why can't the penguins figure it out. The simple answer is attitude of somehow, older = better. Older is needed for "forward development" etc....
it's a myth. The whole rest of the AHL is stacked with youth on the backed. Their forward development is going just fine. Sign and play.
Jun. 28, 2019 at 9:11 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
look, how many defensive guys you see there signed till they are 30 or actually are 30?

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/bluejackets
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/hurricanes
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/devils 1
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/islanders
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/rangers
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/flyers 1
https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/capitals

You look at the comparable ages and you being to realize, the penguins are holding onto older players, who have no chance to reach the NHL, while the whole rest of the league is filling their AHL roster with youth on their back end.
It is a matter or will. You can't keep stacking your back end with 28 year old guys signed till they are 30 and saying, it's fine.
If the WHOLE rest of the league can do it, why can't the penguins figure it out. The simple answer is attitude of somehow, older = better. Older is needed for "forward development" etc....
it's a myth. The whole rest of the AHL is stacked with youth on the backed. Their forward development is going just fine. Sign and play.


Alright, this is going to be my last post in this thread. The fact that you'd ask me how many guys in the UFA age group are signed for next season when free agency doesn't open until Monday is disingenuous, but I decided to take a look at how many of these coveted young UFA's there are that you're convinced the Pens should be stocked full of. I went through all 31 NHL teams and counted how many U25 defensemen were RFA's or under contract, then checked which were undrafted or signed after they were picked but went unsigned. For clarity, I only went through the non-roster defensemen because the NHL rosters were turning out almost 100% draft picks and we're discussing signing guys for AHL development anyway.

Across all 31 teams, there were only 43 undrafted U25 defensemen out of a total pool of 176 players. It was a fairly even split between the number of teams that had had either 1 or 2 players that fit the description, with a few outliers of 0 and even less with 3. I didn't keep an exact count of how many of the 43 UDFA's had played primarily in the ECHL, but it was noticeable amount (probably around 6 or 7).

All of the stacking of youth you talk about is done through the draft, and the average team has 1 guy like Ethan Prow who might not even be good enough to play in the AHL. The gaps are filled by veterans who are 27 or older, which every single team either has right now or is about to sign next week. Nice talk.
Jun. 29, 2019 at 1:43 p.m.
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Quoting: Jake_H
This is what happens when the entire Penguins system either misses the playoffs or gets swept, mixed with being a season ticket holder in Wilkes-Barre for over a decade, combined with being out of a job and it being too hot to do anything outside during the longest days of the year.
Let me assure you that we are in fact totally nuts, and that's fine. If I counted right the Pens will have used 46 contract slots once all the RFA's they've qualified are signed, and Addison and Hallander will both come off that total if they return to juniors/overseas. Even if you assume Pittsburgh is going to keep Jarry and carry three goalies there's still room at add to the AHL and NHL teams.

Quoting: Jake_H
Alright, this is going to be my last post in this thread. The fact that you'd ask me how many guys in the UFA age group are signed for next season when free agency doesn't open until Monday is disingenuous, but I decided to take a look at how many of these coveted young UFA's there are that you're convinced the Pens should be stocked full of. I went through all 31 NHL teams and counted how many U25 defensemen were RFA's or under contract, then checked which were undrafted or signed after they were picked but went unsigned. For clarity, I only went through the non-roster defensemen because the NHL rosters were turning out almost 100% draft picks and we're discussing signing guys for AHL development anyway.

Across all 31 teams, there were only 43 undrafted U25 defensemen out of a total pool of 176 players. It was a fairly even split between the number of teams that had had either 1 or 2 players that fit the description, with a few outliers of 0 and even less with 3. I didn't keep an exact count of how many of the 43 UDFA's had played primarily in the ECHL, but it was noticeable amount (probably around 6 or 7).

All of the stacking of youth you talk about is done through the draft, and the average team has 1 guy like Ethan Prow who might not even be good enough to play in the AHL. The gaps are filled by veterans who are 27 or older, which every single team either has right now or is about to sign next week. Nice talk.


Thanks for the info. I had 49 but that before the QO period was done. So by my accounts your 46 is now correct. That said, it’s not a tonne of space for in-season moves and the like. PGH, along with SJS, MIN, and CBJ are going to be cutting it close to the 50 contract slots (tho I still have to update some teams with the QO data). I figure PGH will look to deal at least 1 vet off the back end, that’s the plan at least (good luck with that). Why they acquired Johnson & Gudbranson in the first place is beyond me. Everyone knew they were bad, except Rutherford it seems. Maybe his HHoF induction this autumn should be a retirement party too?

And yeah, PGH seems to be stocking more veteran (25+ players) in their system than other teams. It’s too early to tell much now for next season but Elite Prospects has a tool that lets you compare age (and height etc...) across teams in the same League (incl AHL).

One thing that will arise with doing this is the limit on veterans they can dress for a given game in the AHL. Basically once they have played 240 professional games (in either NHL and AHL combined) then they count towards a veteran spot and only 3 can dress per game, I believe. So not sure how they’re going to navigate that

(To digress, I find it a bit of a silly rule, personally. The best players should play in the AHL, whether they be 21 or 31. This would make it more comparable to AAA in a baseball context. “But what about development?” Well, there’s this other League, called the ECHL, and that can also be used to break in new pros, even ones who may one day reach the NHL (tho it rarely is). Once a player masters one level, they move onto the next, from the E to the A to the N. If not then they can settle in and play pro at a given level. At least an increase in the number of veteran spots would be helpful - say to 6-8 per team - would be a step to increasing skill and compete level in the AHL, while still keeping its emphasis on development. It would allow still young (24/25/26) pros, to stay closer to home (instead of having to go to Europe, which is often the case) and extend their pro careers. Just my thoughts tho.)

But as it stands now I think WBS may run into issues with their vet limits.
 
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