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LTIR Question: TOR Cap

Jul. 5, 2019 at 8:17 a.m.
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Can someone try to explain to me why CHI traded Hossa to the Coyotes last year despite the fact that he was already in LTIR? They had to surrender a lot more than they got back, besides the obvious cap space. So why did they do this? How can TOR simply keep Horton on LTIR and still retain his cap hit as, in essence, cap space? I'm confused. Why doesn't TOR have to trade Horton in order to free up all of his cap hit of $5.3M. Thx.
Jul. 5, 2019 at 8:25 a.m.
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And before everyone directs me to the LTIR page on this site, I've already skimmed through it. I'm just not sure how to apply it to TOR's cap specifically. Is it as simple as: Horton has a cap hit of $5.3M, therefore, TOR receives an additional $5.3M in cap space?
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Jul. 5, 2019 at 8:51 a.m.
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Quoting: Brian2016
Can someone try to explain to me why CHI traded Hossa to the Coyotes last year despite the fact that he was already in LTIR? They had to surrender a lot more than they got back, besides the obvious cap space. So why did they do this? How can TOR simply keep Horton on LTIR and still retain his cap hit as, in essence, cap space? I'm confused. Why doesn't TOR have to trade Horton in order to free up all of his cap hit of $5.3M. Thx.


Her's my explanation. If Hossa was continue on LTIR for the remaining years of his career.....no problem to the Hawks. The only effect life long LTIR have is it might affect the WHEN a team can pay it's performance bonuses...either the current season or delay them for another.

Hossa had a front loaded contract. He wasn't returning to play even if was deemed medically fit to play. Being a plus 35 signee, the Hawks would still be responsible for his 5.25m cap hit, if he was deemed medically fit to play at some time even if Hossa had retired and forfeited his 1m salary. So the Hawks traded him to a team who were willing to take a chance of taking Hossa's future 5.25m cap hit if by chance he was deemed medically to play in the future.

And yes the Leafs receive an additional 5.3m cap space, and does Clarkson for Vegas. In almost all cases there is no benefit or harm in trading for or having an player on LTIR.

Horton: His contract was uninsured so at the time the Columbus was on the hook for 5.3m X 5...27.5m in real money to be paid at of the owner's pocket....Though he did provide cap relief as his career was ended.... The reason for the trade. Clarkson was 2.0m player on a 5.25m X5 contract. Leafs wanted cap space, Leafs found a willing partner in Columbus. The owners of Columbus decided to better to have a 2m player making 5.25m.(Clarkson). and eating 5.25m cap space, then paying 5.25m in real money to Horton. So the Leafs owners decide better pay 27.5m out of pocket and have cap space then have Clarkson taking 5.25m of cap space. Remember Clarkson was healthy at the time.
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Jul. 5, 2019 at 10:46 a.m.
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Whenever i look at a team on CF it acts like nobody is on LTIR. Are there any players currently on LTIR?
Jul. 5, 2019 at 12:01 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
Her's my explanation. If Hossa was continue on LTIR for the remaining years of his career.....no problem to the Hawks. The only effect life long LTIR have is it might affect the WHEN a team can pay it's performance bonuses...either the current season or delay them for another.

Hossa had a front loaded contract. He wasn't returning to play even if was deemed medically fit to play. Being a plus 35 signee, the Hawks would still be responsible for his 5.25m cap hit, if he was deemed medically fit to play at some time even if Hossa had retired and forfeited his 1m salary. So the Hawks traded him to a team who were willing to take a chance of taking Hossa's future 5.25m cap hit if by chance he was deemed medically to play in the future.

And yes the Leafs receive an additional 5.3m cap space, and does Clarkson for Vegas. In almost all cases there is no benefit or harm in trading for or having an player on LTIR.

Horton: His contract was uninsured so at the time the Columbus was on the hook for 5.3m X 5...27.5m in real money to be paid at of the owner's pocket....Though he did provide cap relief as his career was ended.... The reason for the trade. Clarkson was 2.0m player on a 5.25m X5 contract. Leafs wanted cap space, Leafs found a willing partner in Columbus. The owners of Columbus decided to better to have a 2m player making 5.25m.(Clarkson). and eating 5.25m cap space, then paying 5.25m in real money to Horton. So the Leafs owners decide better pay 27.5m out of pocket and have cap space then have Clarkson taking 5.25m of cap space. Remember Clarkson was healthy at the time.


Thx. I appreciate the insights. Your explanation makes sense. I just remember the Devils acquiring Savard from BOS a few years ago in exchange for a 2nd round pick (I think) when Savard was on LTIR and done for his career.
Jul. 5, 2019 at 1:57 p.m.
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Quoting: Brian2016
Thx. I appreciate the insights. Your explanation makes sense. I just remember the Devils acquiring Savard from BOS a few years ago in exchange for a 2nd round pick (I think) when Savard was on LTIR and done for his career.


Just guessing the Bruins may have wanted their Performances Bonuses in the THAT seasons due to large amount of players on ELCs. With Savard on LTIR likely they would have to delay the Bonuses to the following year...and then those ELCs were on more expensive RFA contracts. In 2019/20 the Leafs had Horton on IR, not LTIR, so they could pay their bonuses in 2019/20 instead of delaying bonus payments to 2019/20 when they have more expensive base salaries due to Matthews 11m raise and maybe Marner' 9m raise.
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Jul. 5, 2019 at 2:26 p.m.
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Whenever i look at a team on CF it acts like nobody is on LTIR. Are there any players currently on LTIR?


The teams could be the players on LTIR...especially the season ending ones. But there is no need to right now with the 10% rule in affect. If a team wants to they can keep a LTIR player on IR during the season they have the cap space and want to pay their performance bonuses during the same season. So I think the teams are doing that just in case they can pay the performance bonus. Certainly the Leafs , Vegas and Arizona will be basing their cap on the rightful assumption that Horton, Clarkson and Hossa are on LTIR all season.
Jul. 6, 2019 at 12:44 p.m.
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Just to clarify one point. A team must be cap compliant at the start of the season in order to put any player on LTIR. Teams may achieve this by sending down players to the AHL. However, when those players are recalled, the salary and bonuses are now counted against the cap.
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Jul. 6, 2019 at 1:35 p.m.
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Quoting: MisterKurtz
Just to clarify one point. A team must be cap compliant at the start of the season in order to put any player on LTIR. Teams may achieve this by sending down players to the AHL. However, when those players are recalled, the salary and bonuses are now counted against the cap.


But you can't put a guy like Horton in the AHL, so how are they gonna work around? Even better example is Vegas.
Jul. 8, 2019 at 9:01 a.m.
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Quoting: MisterKurtz
Just to clarify one point. A team must be cap compliant at the start of the season in order to put any player on LTIR. Teams may achieve this by sending down players to the AHL. However, when those players are recalled, the salary and bonuses are now counted against the cap.


I don't think so, a team can put a player on LTIR (if eligible) EVEN in off-season.
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Jul. 8, 2019 at 10:10 a.m.
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I'm using this to support my position.

"In order to qualify for placement on the Long Term Injured Reserve (henceforth referred to as the LTIR), a player must be deemed to be unavailable for 24 days and 10 NHL games. If that is satisfied, a player can be placed on the LTIR." To me, this means the season starts with the player NOT on LTIR and goes to LTIR after 24 days.
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Jul. 8, 2019 at 10:46 a.m.
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Remember, LTIR is only used when a team needs to exceed the cap; it's essentially just a cap "circumvention" tool (although it's not really circumvention since it's very legal and very cool, but idk how else to describe it). Otherwise a team will just leave the player on IR. So we won't see any teams use it unless they are right up against the cap, i.e. Vegas, Toronto, etc. Since teams can exceed the cap by 10% in the offseason, we likely won't see any use of it right now unless you're like Vegas and you're bursting at the seams.

Chicago traded Hossa simply because it's much easier to not have to deal with the LTIR mess; Chicago in all likelihood wanted to keep competing so they wanted to get out from underneath the cap hit so they could make moves freely and without having to worry about the implications of LTIR. And they must have felt like giving up assets was worth it.

For Horton, like I mentioned above, he will only go on LTIR whenever the Leafs need to exceed the cap. If they end up under the cap after all of their offseason moves are complete (unlikely), Horton will not be placed on LTIR, but simply IR so his cap will still count, but he won't take up a roster spot. Right now the Leafs are below the cap, so Horton is not on LTIR.
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Jul. 13, 2019 at 10:05 p.m.
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Quoting: MisterKurtz
I'm using this to support my position.

"In order to qualify for placement on the Long Term Injured Reserve (henceforth referred to as the LTIR), a player must be deemed to be unavailable for 24 days and 10 NHL games. If that is satisfied, a player can be placed on the LTIR." To me, this means the season starts with the player NOT on LTIR and goes to LTIR after 24 days.


Players can be placed on LTIR during the summer. Take Horton for instance, he unavailable for more than 24 day....all season actually, so he can be placed on LTIR at any time.
Teams aren't cap punished for injured players. For instance if Kane and Toews are injured training this summer....the Hawks aren't limited to have a 60m roster for the first 24 days of the season.
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Jul. 23, 2019 at 9:50 a.m.
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Quoting: palhal
Players can be placed on LTIR during the summer. Take Horton for instance, he unavailable for more than 24 day....all season actually, so he can be placed on LTIR at any time.
Teams aren't cap punished for injured players. For instance if Kane and Toews are injured training this summer....the Hawks aren't limited to have a 60m roster for the first 24 days of the season.


Right, however its not just a wipe off of the contract. Toronto has to be under that cap BEFORE placing Horton on LTIR. Once they are compliant and place him on LTIR, the leafs are then allowed to spend 5.3 over the cap to replace the player. Again they cannot be over the cap to start the season and then use his contract to make it work. they must be at or below the 81.5 salary cap INCLUDING his contract and then may spend 5.3 over after he is on LTIR. Which is why Boston wanted to move Savard, and Chicago wanted to move Hossa.
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Jul. 23, 2019 at 12:24 p.m.
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Quoting: hanson493
Right, however its not just a wipe off of the contract. Toronto has to be under that cap BEFORE placing Horton on LTIR. Once they are compliant and place him on LTIR, the leafs are then allowed to spend 5.3 over the cap to replace the player. Again they cannot be over the cap to start the season and then use his contract to make it work. they must be at or below the 81.5 salary cap INCLUDING his contract and then may spend 5.3 over after he is on LTIR. Which is why Boston wanted to move Savard, and Chicago wanted to move Hossa.


Nope players can be placed on LTIR during the summer. Yes there LTIR doesn't kick till the team reaches 81.5, or in the summer teams can be 10% over Leafs actually had three players on LTIR on a few seasons ago..and summer for 13.5m. It did not hinder them to spend to cap with "active players." Having a player on LTIR, may affect when a team can pay its performances which may have the reason for the Savard trade. Hossa LTIR didn't affect the Hawks. The reason he was traded was their was the danger that at some time he might have been medically fit and the Hawks couldn't afford his cap hit due cap hit. Arizona took the chance of having a Hossa's contract's cap on books for this year if been deemed fit. Hossa would never have been reported to play, due to his retirement and getting only 1m in actual dollars if played. But being a plus 35 signing his cap would still belong Arizona.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 1:48 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
Nope players can be placed on LTIR during the summer. Yes there LTIR doesn't kick till the team reaches 81.5, or in the summer teams can be 10% over Leafs actually had three players on LTIR on a few seasons ago..and summer for 13.5m. It did not hinder them to spend to cap with "active players." Having a player on LTIR, may affect when a team can pay its performances which may have the reason for the Savard trade. Hossa LTIR didn't affect the Hawks. The reason he was traded was their was the danger that at some time he might have been medically fit and the Hawks couldn't afford his cap hit due cap hit. Arizona took the chance of having a Hossa's contract's cap on books for this year if been deemed fit. Hossa would never have been reported to play, due to his retirement and getting only 1m in actual dollars if played. But being a plus 35 signing his cap would still belong Arizona.


No at the time the blackhawks had less than 5m in cap room, hossa had a 5.25m cap hit. they had to move Hossa's contract because if you put him on LTIR it still counts his cap. you still have to be cap compliant using this method. You cant just put him on ltir and go over the cap. Same with Savard, thats why the bruins moved him out when they did because they needed that additional cap space. You arent figuring cap amounts into it. those players that were on ltir last year for the leafs were cap compliant and could be replaced. if the player came back you would have to move salary out to get the ltir players salary back in. Not only that but if you place one player on LTIR your amount you can go over doesnt change. Its wicked confusing, but you can have players on it during the offseason but your teams cap hit isnt determined by just AAV, its determined by average daily cap. Even with LTIR you cannot go over the average daily cap. you must always remain under it. As i said its alot more complicated than just oh hey horton cant play so lets take his 5.3m and give it to kapanen and connor brown. it just isnt that simple.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 1:52 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
The teams could be the players on LTIR...especially the season ending ones. But there is no need to right now with the 10% rule in affect. If a team wants to they can keep a LTIR player on IR during the season they have the cap space and want to pay their performance bonuses during the same season. So I think the teams are doing that just in case they can pay the performance bonus. Certainly the Leafs , Vegas and Arizona will be basing their cap on the rightful assumption that Horton, Clarkson and Hossa are on LTIR all season.


I'm late to reply, but i'll ask this: weren't some players placed on LTIR last year? Or do all players go off LTIR after the season?
Jul. 23, 2019 at 2:14 p.m.
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
I'm late to reply, but i'll ask this: weren't some players placed on LTIR last year? Or do all players go off LTIR after the season?


Gotta believe Hossa was just on IR because Arizona was close to the cap last year,,,this year might be different. Not sure about Clarkson but Vegas has very little Performance Bonuses so it really didn't matter if the had him IR or LTIR depending on their cap.
For the first time Horton was on IR last season...not LTIR. Leafs had a relatively low payroll because Matthews, Marner, Johnson and Kapanen were on ELCs, so the Leafs wanted to pay the high bonuses 4m last year. With the high increase in actual salaries this year due to the new RFA contract, Horton will be on LTIR for sure.

Generally, players come off the LTIR during the summer since the teams have the 10% cap overage during the summer. But if necessary teams can have players on LTIR during the summer,,,,I know the Leafs have at some point due to the having 10 to 13m in LTIR a few years ago.
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Jul. 23, 2019 at 2:21 p.m.
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Quoting: hanson493
No at the time the blackhawks had less than 5m in cap room, hossa had a 5.25m cap hit. they had to move Hossa's contract because if you put him on LTIR it still counts his cap. you still have to be cap compliant using this method. You cant just put him on ltir and go over the cap. Same with Savard, thats why the bruins moved him out when they did because they needed that additional cap space. You arent figuring cap amounts into it. those players that were on ltir last year for the leafs were cap compliant and could be replaced. if the player came back you would have to move salary out to get the ltir players salary back in. Not only that but if you place one player on LTIR your amount you can go over doesnt change. Its wicked confusing, but you can have players on it during the offseason but your teams cap hit isnt determined by just AAV, its determined by average daily cap. Even with LTIR you cannot go over the average daily cap. you must always remain under it. As i said its alot more complicated than just oh hey horton cant play so lets take his 5.3m and give it to kapanen and connor brown. it just isnt that simple.


But you make sound like teams are cap punished for having players on LTIR players... They aren't. But you logic if Toews and Kane are injured now, the Hawks have to carry them on the 81.5m, and the Hawks would have to get rid of 20m in players. C'mon that's not how it works at all.

If you truly think that all these LTIR player count on the 81.5m cap and the teams don't get cap help to sign other players. So be it. I won't argue.
Just add the Leafs "active "players come October 1, assuming Marner is signed. and its's going to be about 81m. then add Horton its 86.3m. It certainly won't be 81.5m with Horton on LTIR.
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Jul. 23, 2019 at 2:39 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
Gotta believe Hossa was just on IR because Arizona was close to the cap last year,,,this year might be different. Not sure about Clarkson but Vegas has very little Performance Bonuses so it really didn't matter if the had him IR or LTIR depending on their cap.
For the first time Horton was on IR last season...not LTIR. Leafs had a relatively low payroll because Matthews, Marner, Johnson and Kapanen were on ELCs, so the Leafs wanted to pay the high bonuses 4m last year. With the high increase in actual salaries this year due to the new RFA contract, Horton will be on LTIR for sure.

Generally, players come off the LTIR during the summer since the teams have the 10% cap overage during the summer. But if necessary teams can have players on LTIR during the summer,,,,I know the Leafs have at some point due to the having 10 to 13m in LTIR a few years ago.


So, you're saying teams have to choose to place a player on LTIR the next season even if he was on LTIR the season before? So, if a player was on LTIR for 2018-19, does the team have to place them on LTIR again if they want to? Or does he just stay on LTIR unless they want to take him off?
Jul. 23, 2019 at 2:58 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
But you make sound like teams are cap punished for having players on LTIR players... They aren't. But you logic if Toews and Kane are injured now, the Hawks have to carry them on the 81.5m, and the Hawks would have to get rid of 20m in players. C'mon that's not how it works at all.

If you truly think that all these LTIR player count on the 81.5m cap and the teams don't get cap help to sign other players. So be it. I won't argue.
Just add the Leafs "active "players come October 1, assuming Marner is signed. and its's going to be about 81m. then add Horton its 86.3m. It certainly won't be 81.5m with Horton on LTIR.


man read the cba rules or the faq on here. THEY count towards the cap. the blackhawks would have to fit their team into being cap compliant before trying to add players to replace kane and toews. IF either player were to come back it might not be as simple as sending a player to AHL. Especially if you are trying to replace a quality player with another quality player. As i said before its not nearly as simple as a one for one or 2-3 for one player swap. That players contract is essentially a relief fund, it starts accruing from the day the player is placed on ltir, once they go over the cap amount they then start drawing from the relief fund. They cannot exceed the average salary cap still. hortons contract is basically paying for the replacement player/players. You can look at is as the leafs having a cap amount of 86.8 but thats not entirely true. Its still 81.5. They still cant go over what is call the ACSL (accruable cap space limit). There is an equation that will get your figure 2 separate ways. the closer you are to the cap limit the more you can go over the cap and be okay. for example if toronto had 1.5m in space when designating horton to ltir, you would subtracts 81.5 - 1.5 to get an accrueable limit of 80. now add hortons contract to that 80 and thats as high as they can go. This is known as the basic equation. The training camp equation takes the upper limit 81.5 and subtracts the LTIR cap amount. 5.3. this gives you an accrue-able limit of 76.2 in order to accrue cap space the leafs would need to be below this limit. Once they go over the ACSL they start using the relief from the LTIR contract.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 3:24 p.m.
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@Banks do players with career ending injuries count against the cap? tears of joy

@palhal @hanson493
Jul. 23, 2019 at 3:33 p.m.
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Quoting: hanson493


As I said if you truly believe that teams have to include LTIR players to be in the 81.5m limit. So be it. Didn't happen to the Leafs when they had 13.5m in seasons ending LTIR. And if you think by the Kanes/Toews example (season ending injuries)the Hawks would have to somehow shed 21m in cap (or 17m) whatever and then wait to the season start filling that 17m or so in roster spots. So be it.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 3:39 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal


"When a player is placed on LTIR, their cap hit remains on the teams cap payroll and it continues to count as it always did. It also does not provide the club with additional cap-space savings that can be banked for future use while the team operates above the salary cap. Instead, LTIR provides relief if the club's averaged club salary, or payroll, begins to exceed the upper limit. "

Literally the second paragraph under the cba ltir faq.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 3:52 p.m.
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Quoting: MisterKurtz
Just to clarify one point. A team must be cap compliant at the start of the season in order to put any player on LTIR. Teams may achieve this by sending down players to the AHL. However, when those players are recalled, the salary and bonuses are now counted against the cap.


This isn;t true. A team can be above the cap and put a player on LTIR.

Quoting: rangersandislesfan
@Banks do players with career ending injuries count against the cap? tears of joy

@palhal @hanson493


Yes they do. An SPC unless bought out, terminated, or the player officially retires, will always count against the cap.
 
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