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Sick Marner trade V2

Created by: CC0813
Team: 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Jul. 23, 2019
Published: Jul. 23, 2019
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
A few people said return wasn't enough. Added to it
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
5$10,500,000
Trades
TOR
  1. Boqvist, Jesper
  2. Palmieri, Kyle
  3. Severson, Damon
  4. 2020 1st round pick (NJD)
  5. 2021 2nd round pick (NJD)
Retained Salary Transactions
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2020
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Logo of the TOR
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Logo of the COL
Logo of the EDM
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Logo of the STL
Logo of the WPG
2021
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the NJD
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
2022
Logo of the TOR
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$77,788,865$0$0$3,711,135
Left WingCentreRight Wing
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$3,400,000$3,400,000
LW, RW
UFA - 4
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$11,634,000$11,634,000
C
UFA - 5
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$6,962,366$6,962,366
RW
UFA - 5
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,250,000$2,250,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$11,000,000$11,000,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 6
Logo of the New Jersey Devils
$2,325,000$2,325,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$925,000$925,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$3,500,000$3,500,000
LW, C, RW
UFA - 4
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$3,200,000$3,200,000
RW
UFA - 3
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$700,000$700,000
C, RW
NTC
UFA - 1
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$775,000$775,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
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$775,000$775,000
C, LW, RW
UFA - 2
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
LD
UFA - 3
Logo of the New Jersey Devils
$4,166,666$4,166,666
RD
UFA - 4
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,000,000$4,000,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,750,000$2,750,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$700,000$700,000
G
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$863,333$863,333
LD/RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$675,000$675,000
RD
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,500,000$4,500,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,300,000$5,300,000
RW
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$737,500$737,500
LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$750,000$750,000
C
UFA - 1

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Jul. 23, 2019 at 11:26 a.m.
#1
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I think this is fair.
You get a cost controlled top-2-4 D in Severson for 4 years.
You get a cost-controlled good forward who can score, make plays and hit in Palmieri for 2 years
Boqvist is a good prospect as well.
+ the 2020 1st (Devils could be average this year without goaltending) -> potential top 10-15 pick
+ 2nd
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Jul. 23, 2019 at 11:33 a.m.
#2
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Finally a Mitch Marner trade proposal that actually makes some sense. That is a lot for NJ to give up, but the thought of a Hall / Hughes / Marner top line would be very enticing.
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Jul. 23, 2019 at 11:33 a.m.
#3
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If Marner isn't worth 10.5 mil why would NJ give up all that AND pay Marner 10.5 mil???
Jul. 23, 2019 at 11:42 a.m.
#4
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I think the pieces are valuable enough to fetch Marner, and a core of Hall, Hischier, Marner, Hughes and Subban is something to marvel at, but I think this guts the Devils' already lacking current and future depth too much for them to go through with it. I think Severson is the piece that hurts the most to lose while also being the most important piece to TOR.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 11:51 a.m.
#5
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This is what I love best about this site.... Leafs fans don't want to pay Marner like he's a top winger in the game, but they sure do ask for a top winger haul when they trade him off to other teams!
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Jul. 23, 2019 at 12:05 p.m.
#6
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Quoting: Hockeygoalie53
This is what I love best about this site.... Leafs fans don't want to pay Marner like he's a top winger in the game, but they sure do ask for a top winger haul when they trade him off to other teams!


When the player asks for over 11.5 and the draft pick compensation is 4 1sts via offer sheet, naturally trade scenarios like this exist. And to be honest, this is your classic depth/salary trade where one team gets some decent to good players making the numbers work, and some futures to roll the dice on.

None of the pieces from Jersey are all that special but it makes some sense for both teams.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 12:08 p.m.
#7
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Quoting: Riley816
If Marner isn't worth 10.5 mil why would NJ give up all that AND pay Marner 10.5 mil???


Nj is in a position where they are trying to keep Hall after just adding the 1st overall in the draft. Much like Columbus taking a swing at the deadline, this would be New Jersey doing the same. It's opportunity cost.

Toronto may not want or be able to pay Marner that much but that doesn't mean another team couldn't, wouldn't, or shouldn't.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 12:28 p.m.
#8
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Quoting: Goulet
Nj is in a position where they are trying to keep Hall after just adding the 1st overall in the draft. Much like Columbus taking a swing at the deadline, this would be New Jersey doing the same. It's opportunity cost.

Toronto may not want or be able to pay Marner that much but that doesn't mean another team couldn't, wouldn't, or shouldn't.


Columbus didnt trade a top 4 cost controlled dman and a top 9 projected top 6 20 year old 2nd round pick along with a 1st a 2nd and now a decent middle 6 rw, for a guy without a contract. Mark stone trade had no actual roster pieces involved in the deal, duchene and dzingel had no roster pieces involved in the deal, Erik karlsson had no roster pieces returned in the deal. what makes you think Marner being traded is any different? Granted those scenarios were more for rentals but if the devils are trying to sign taylor hall to a new contract already have subban at 9m and then bring marner in at high money, that team wont have any depth left to compete for a cup.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 1:06 p.m.
#9
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Quoting: Goulet
When the player asks for over 11.5 and the draft pick compensation is 4 1sts via offer sheet, naturally trade scenarios like this exist. And to be honest, this is your classic depth/salary trade where one team gets some decent to good players making the numbers work, and some futures to roll the dice on.

None of the pieces from Jersey are all that special but it makes some sense for both teams.


Right, but if the Leafs don't value Marner as an 11.5m guy, which clearly they don't since they wont' sign him for that amount, then they can't expect to get a haul like the OP put in the trade in return for him. Severson and Palmieri are key pieces for NJ. Severson is their #3 or #4 D-man and Palmieri is a second line player who put up 49 points for them last year.

Leafs fans can't have it both ways... either Marner is worth 10.5-11.5m as one of the top wingers in the game, or he isn't... clearly the Leafs don't view him as such and any trade return should reflect that.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 1:46 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: Hockeygoalie53
Right, but if the Leafs don't value Marner as an 11.5m guy, which clearly they don't since they wont' sign him for that amount, then they can't expect to get a haul like the OP put in the trade in return for him. Severson and Palmieri are key pieces for NJ. Severson is their #3 or #4 D-man and Palmieri is a second line player who put up 49 points for them last year.

Leafs fans can't have it both ways... either Marner is worth 10.5-11.5m as one of the top wingers in the game, or he isn't... clearly the Leafs don't view him as such and any trade return should reflect that.


Yes and no. Here you have the offer sheet threat and the knowledge that it would take an offer north of 10.5 for the Leafs not to match and take the four 1sts instead. No team really wants to give up 4 1sts and every team has to move salary to bring in a play making 8 figures so the reality then becomes, which players make it work and NJ doesn't have a lot to offer which is why this particular proposal makes some sense.

The reality is that with the addition of Barrie, Severson isn't what the Leafs need...similar to NJ adding Subban. Severson's role will diminish and he's an offense only guy to begin with.
Palmieri puts up decent numbers and would be good on Tavares' left wing but the rest of the trade is mediocre compared to 4 1sts.

The Leafs don't care about an offer sheet but would be glad for one simply for closure one way or the other. I think if a Marner trade were to come about instead of an offer sheet, the Leafs would want a great prospect, a good D and/or winger, and some picks.

If Marner is the player NJ was after and they wouldn't offer this deal, there really isn't a reason for them to talk trade because they have nothing else. They have to give to get.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 1:50 p.m.
#11
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Quoting: hanson493
Columbus didnt trade a top 4 cost controlled dman and a top 9 projected top 6 20 year old 2nd round pick along with a 1st a 2nd and now a decent middle 6 rw, for a guy without a contract. Mark stone trade had no actual roster pieces involved in the deal, duchene and dzingel had no roster pieces involved in the deal, Erik karlsson had no roster pieces returned in the deal. what makes you think Marner being traded is any different? Granted those scenarios were more for rentals but if the devils are trying to sign taylor hall to a new contract already have subban at 9m and then bring marner in at high money, that team wont have any depth left to compete for a cup.


You're comparing apples to oranges with ufas versus rfas. And a lot of roster players were included in those deals, check the main page and sort Ottawa's trades to see for yourself.

I get the idea that giving up their good depth could be bad for the team but salary has to move out to make room and the Leafs aren't going to want Zajac, Vatanen, Zacha, a 1st and a 2nd.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 2:13 p.m.
#12
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Quoting: Goulet
You're comparing apples to oranges with ufas versus rfas. And a lot of roster players were included in those deals, check the main page and sort Ottawa's trades to see for yourself.

I get the idea that giving up their good depth could be bad for the team but salary has to move out to make room and the Leafs aren't going to want Zajac, Vatanen, Zacha, a 1st and a 2nd.


Dzingel went for 2 seconds and duclair (hadnt really performed well outside of one year, this was kind of adding a prospect back even though he was technically a roster player) Duchene and Bergman went to Columbus for a 1st, Vitaly Abramov, and Jonathan Davidsson. Conditional first if he resigned. No roster players involved there both guys were prospects. Mark Stone went for a 2nd a fringe 3rd more likely 4th line player in lindberg and a prospect in Brannstrom. Karlsson and a prospect went to Sharks for Tierney ( a good 3rd line center) Dylan Demelo who shows potential of working higher than the bottom pairing but is likely a fringe 4th dman. balcers (prosect) and norris (prospect) along with a 2nd and 3 conditional picks that turned into a 2020 first and a 2021 second. The bulk of these deals isnt gutting the opposing teams depth. Karlsson didnt return timo meier or kevan labanc or tomas hertl. Ive been told by a million leafs fans (over exaggerating) that marner is nothing without tavares, so if thats the case than why are you trying to get an Erik Karlsson esq return? This could give you the same return as what vegas gave for stone. or for tatar. or what sharks gave for nyquist. not what you are getting for erik karlsson.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 3:11 p.m.
#13
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Quoting: hanson493
Dzingel went for 2 seconds and duclair (hadnt really performed well outside of one year, this was kind of adding a prospect back even though he was technically a roster player) Duchene and Bergman went to Columbus for a 1st, Vitaly Abramov, and Jonathan Davidsson. Conditional first if he resigned. No roster players involved there both guys were prospects. Mark Stone went for a 2nd a fringe 3rd more likely 4th line player in lindberg and a prospect in Brannstrom. Karlsson and a prospect went to Sharks for Tierney ( a good 3rd line center) Dylan Demelo who shows potential of working higher than the bottom pairing but is likely a fringe 4th dman. balcers (prosect) and norris (prospect) along with a 2nd and 3 conditional picks that turned into a 2020 first and a 2021 second. The bulk of these deals isnt gutting the opposing teams depth. Karlsson didnt return timo meier or kevan labanc or tomas hertl. Ive been told by a million leafs fans (over exaggerating) that marner is nothing without tavares, so if thats the case than why are you trying to get an Erik Karlsson esq return? This could give you the same return as what vegas gave for stone. or for tatar. or what sharks gave for nyquist. not what you are getting for erik karlsson.


So 3 roster players back, a bunch of picks and prospects. Got it.
Now what do those players all have in common that they don't have with Marner? Ufa status and no team control. Marner has 3 years of control left and is walking into his prime. He is more valuable than a ufa because of this.
If option A is 10M+ in cap space and 4 firsts, the Leafs have to like that option more than most trades.
If option B is a trade with tangible assets, those assets have to be something that can help the team now, not warm bodies to fill out a roster as was the case with Ottawa. Very different situations between Ottawa selling off for a rebuild and Toronto trading one of their top 5 players while in win now mode.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 3:12 p.m.
#14
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Quoting: Hockeygoalie53
This is what I love best about this site.... Leafs fans don't want to pay Marner like he's a top winger in the game, but they sure do ask for a top winger haul when they trade him off to other teams!


I don't know if you're referring to me, but I'm not a leafs fan, and I do think Marner is worth north of 10 mil. For me though, and I might a biased Swede, Nylander has the natural ability to put up 90+ points and has nice contract imo. Don't get why he gets so much **** when he's signed long term and only had one bad half season. Give him a full preseason alongside Matthews (or Tavares) and he'll probably be awesome.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 3:13 p.m.
#15
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Quoting: jwg314
I think the pieces are valuable enough to fetch Marner, and a core of Hall, Hischier, Marner, Hughes and Subban is something to marvel at, but I think this guts the Devils' already lacking current and future depth too much for them to go through with it. I think Severson is the piece that hurts the most to lose while also being the most important piece to TOR.


Def. At the end of the day though, you have to give up something to get something. Marner is one helluva player too and might even be used as a springboard to get Hall signed, idk.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 3:21 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: Goulet
So 3 roster players back, a bunch of picks and prospects. Got it.
Now what do those players all have in common that they don't have with Marner? Ufa status and no team control. Marner has 3 years of control left and is walking into his prime. He is more valuable than a ufa because of this.
If option A is 10M+ in cap space and 4 firsts, the Leafs have to like that option more than most trades.
If option B is a trade with tangible assets, those assets have to be something that can help the team now, not warm bodies to fill out a roster as was the case with Ottawa. Very different situations between Ottawa selling off for a rebuild and Toronto trading one of their top 5 players while in win now mode.


Marner doesnt have a contract, you keep bringing up team control. is it REALLY team control if the guy actually gets UFA money on his new deal? I get what you are saying that he is an RFA and ultimately he signs with toronto, gets traded, signs an offer sheet toronto doesnt match, or doesnt play hockey. I am not marner, i have no insight into what actually happens. but if it came out that marner wasnt signing a deal in toronto, how much leverage does toronto have in a deal at that point? They tell him sign or sit? The leafs would try and recoup as much value as possible out of him but if it became public he wasnt signing there (if he really wanted out or to get the contract he wants) other teams wouldnt be selling the farm to get him.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 4:06 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: hanson493
Marner doesnt have a contract, you keep bringing up team control. is it REALLY team control if the guy actually gets UFA money on his new deal? I get what you are saying that he is an RFA and ultimately he signs with toronto, gets traded, signs an offer sheet toronto doesnt match, or doesnt play hockey. I am not marner, i have no insight into what actually happens. but if it came out that marner wasnt signing a deal in toronto, how much leverage does toronto have in a deal at that point? They tell him sign or sit? The leafs would try and recoup as much value as possible out of him but if it became public he wasnt signing there (if he really wanted out or to get the contract he wants) other teams wouldnt be selling the farm to get him.


If it came down to sit or take the best offer you can get I believe a good GM would let him sit if the offers weren't good enough.
The Aho offer sheet was a classic example of the team hardlining a player and another team hoping they could get him without overpaying and it was a waste of time. Every team in the league would have matched that contract on the simple basis of asset management.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 4:08 p.m.
#18
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Quoting: Goulet
If it came down to sit or take the best offer you can get I believe a good GM would let him sit if the offers weren't good enough.
The Aho offer sheet was a classic example of the team hardlining a player and another team hoping they could get him without overpaying and it was a waste of time. Every team in the league would have matched that contract on the simple basis of asset management.


OR was the Aho contract collusion between friends to keep an RFA signed at a relatively cost effective number? Or did carolina tell the agent go get the best number you can sign an offer sheet and we will match it? If Dubas let marner sit the entire year they would be so so screwed being in win now mode.
Jul. 23, 2019 at 4:15 p.m.
#19
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Quoting: hanson493
OR was the Aho contract collusion between friends to keep an RFA signed at a relatively cost effective number? Or did carolina tell the agent go get the best number you can sign an offer sheet and we will match it? If Dubas let marner sit the entire year they would be so so screwed being in win now mode.


Someone reported that Carolina offered 6M x 8 years and that was a take it or leave it situation. Naturally the agent talked with whoever was interested and Montreal thought front loading with bonus money might scare off the new billionaire Canes owner. None of it makes much sense so who knows what really happened.

Marner sitting isn't ideal but what can they get for him that is going to help now? 4 1sts doesn't help now but the cap space does. A couple of depth players like in this thread aren't gojng to do much either.

If he sits, his number goes way down. Teams don't want players with attitude problems and parents that still scream at their kids from the stands.
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