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(VGK/TOR) - Clarkson & 4th round pick for Sparks

Who won the trade?
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Jul 24 at 3:36
#51
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Quoting: DDoverChucky
This is too funny, Leaves payed a 1st to get rid of Marleau and only get a 4th for this! Now they are extremely vulnerable to an offer sheet before the season, that would force them to make major changes!


leafs are extremely vulnerable to the real (not fake) offer sheet that has been anticipated for a full month now.

dubas is going to be super owned when someone gives marner over 11 million, which many teams can afford.
Jul 24 at 4:14
#52
Joined: Nov 2018
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Quoting: mondo
leafs are extremely vulnerable to the real (not fake) offer sheet that has been anticipated for a full month now.

dubas is going to be super owned when someone gives marner over 11 million, which many teams can afford.


Name a team who has 10+ million ready to spend. Columbus does, but they still have one of their own RFA star players to sign, the Sens, I can hear the owner laughing already, the Avs and Jets and Phi also have their own star RFA's to resign, NJD is planning a T. Hall contract extension right now.
Jul 24 at 4:19
#53
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Name a team who has 10+ million ready to spend. Columbus does, but they still have one of their own RFA star players to sign, the Sens, I can hear the owner laughing already, the Avs and Jets and Phi also have their own star RFA's to resign, NJD is planning a T. Hall contract extension right now.


my post was sarcastic. people keep assuming an offer sheet is going to come when in reality most teams can't afford it or don't want to risk the assets.
Jul 24 at 4:33
#54
Joined: Nov 2018
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Quoting: mondo
my post was sarcastic. people keep assuming an offer sheet is going to come when in reality most teams can't afford it or don't want to risk the assets.


ok, it's hard to pick up sarcasm in written form. Though honesty seeing all the T. Hall for Marner trades in ACGM, I'm guessing fans at least see one team capable of "stealing" Marner. Too bad NJD owners are just as cheap as the Sens.
Jul 24 at 5:53
#55
Joined: Jul 2018
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There is a lot going on with this move.

Vegas avoids using LTIR, which is good for them as they have performance bonueses and potential ELC bonuses that can be partially absorbed this year (with LTIR you can't). They also get a back up goalie, and it cost a 4th. Clarkson's actual deal isn't expensive, he is owed $1M still, of which 80% will be paid by insurance, so it costs $200k to take on the deal. This isn't comparable to Carolina getting a 1st to pay nearly $4M in actual cash as well as taking on the full cap hit of $6.25M for no player.

Toronto is a different story. LTIR allows basically adds a dollar figure (less your current cap space) to the top of the cap. The problem was that as constructed, Toronto couldn't make full use of it's current $3.7M in cap space, and LTIR until Marner was signed. The mechanics of it were that Toronto could sign Marner for any number that brought the cap total up to about $88.65M (which means they could afford an offer sheet or contract up to $10.8M or so without any transactions) during the offseason because of the 10% overage you are allowed, then placed Horton on LTIR to make their ceiling for the season $86.8M, and made whatever paper transactions are necessary to make that cap number work, or if necessary waive or cut however many $700k contracts they needed to to make things work (in fact some of the listed contracts weren't official, so they could have just not signed them if they needed more than $10.8M in space). The problem is that if they place Horton before getting near the ceiling, you only get to exceed the cap by the amount Horton's contract would push you over the ceiling, not the entire amount. Because the Leafs had $3.7M in space, which they were saving to fend off offer sheets, they couldn't really use the full benefit of his LTIR space, and they couldn't really announce some of those league minimum deals. Now, they can manipulate their situation so that if they need to go into camp without Marner, they won't be forced to waive players early, as they can create a new higher cap for themselves that takes full advantage of both Clarkson and Horton's LTIR amount of approximately $10.55M, and after that cap ceilign is created, then waive players if they need a bit more space than that (or create more by starting the year with Hyman or Dermott or both on LTIR as well). Toroto was never going to be able to get rid of Horton's contract because it was uninsured and will cost millions in actual dollars, so they were never really going to be able to have the benefit of not using LTIR, so instead they are essentially manipulating that system to get the maximum effect.

So Clarkson's contract actual gives them a little more flexibility, they also gain a 4th for Sparks and $200k in cash (the remaining uninsurned portion of Clarkson's deal). The biggest drawback is that they will not accrue cap space with LTIR. Last year Nylander had a nominal cap hit of just over $10M, but it doesn't quite work that way. Essentially, the cap hit is stated as $10M (approx), because that is the hit that would be required from the day he signed his deal to the end of the year that would convert to $6.96M for the remainder of the season. So basically, as long as Toronto started the season with about $7M in space to sign Nylander, that amoutn would grow to exactly enough to cover the increased cap hit. This is to make sure a team doesn't have players sit just to accrue additional cap hit while turning around and giving them their actual salary as a bonus next year. However, with LTIR space, you do not accrue cap hit, so this creates a situation where as each day into the season passes, there is literally less and less money available to sign Marner, even if the Leafs wanted to, so it will likely force a decision date before December 1st, or at least have a date after which only a smaller bridge deal could work.

So aside from any of that, Garret Sparks was included in the deal. Dubas has seemed to place some importantce on avoidng holding young players hostage in situations where things aren't working. He didn't leave Carrick or Leivo lingering in the pressbox long, and he seems to place value on building trust that he will move you if you aren't a fit.

So all in all, Toronto got a 4th for a contract that is actually somewhat beneficial for them, to move along a player they likely would have had to waive and about $200k in cash. It's convuluted but it was a good trade for them as well.
Jul 24 at 6:01
#56
Joined: Jul 2018
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Quoting: DDoverChucky
This is too funny, Leaves payed a 1st to get rid of Marleau and only get a 4th for this! Now they are extremely vulnerable to an offer sheet before the season, that would force them to make major changes!


The trades aren't comparable. Marleau sits at $6.25M on the cap, can't be on IR, and cost nearly $4M in real cash. Carolina now has $6.25M in dead cap for this year.

Clarkson is on LTIR, he counts as a cap hit of $5.25M but can be placed on IR allowing Toronto to exceed the cap by up to $5.25M. Also, he is only making $1M this year, and 80% of that is covered by insurance. So the cash cost is $200K. Because Toronto can manipulate their payroll to be right at the cap (thanks partly to this contract), they can now exceed the cap by up to $10.55M without making any transactions (other than LTIR). Throw in that they currently have 24 players on their roster, that would be 25 if Marner is signed, and there is likely a minimum of $2.1M being buried as well. This means there is close to $13M that can be made available with the stroke of a pen should the Leafs need to.

They are actually in a better position to deal with summer offer sheets than they were before.
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Jul 25 at 12:03
#57
Joined: Mar 2019
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Quoting: Hedman77
I need a leafs fan to explain to me why they traded Sparks


Late last season when Andersen had just come off IR (Leafs were trying to rest Andersen more with playoffs coming) about two games previous, Leafs played Sparks on a back to back game in which the team defensively was non-existent.
They lost the game and then Sparks made some comments to the media of "we" need to take some pride in our own end.

That did not sit well with the team and Babcock wasn't fan from the start of season. Anyway he never saw the net again, infact Hutchinson was the backup or starter in the remaining games.

I'm not defending Sparks here (he could have just said what he wanted in private to the team but he chose other means) but yeah the team did need to take pride in their own end on D.
He just chose the wrong way to voice that.
Jul 25 at 1:11
#58
Discord COL's GM
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uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I'm at a loss at what the hell Toronto is doing..........
Jul 25 at 1:18
#59
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Edited Jul 25 at 1:25
Quoting: BeastModeUnknown
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I'm at a loss at what the hell Toronto is doing..........


Read third and second post above you...its fool-proof explanation....
Jul 25 at 8:08
#60
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Quoting: SpaghettiPasta
Fair. Surprised Clarkston wavied his nmc with the taxes in Toronto


Maybe it confirms what I've been saying for years, players don't many of their taxes at personal tax rates. Never hear about Jays and Raptors complaining about taxes but somehow it's a CapFriendly fascination.
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Jul 25 at 8:12
#61
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Edited Jul 25 at 8:18
Quoting: ConnorMcHellebucyk
Huge win for Vegas. and if Subban flops maybe Sparks will do well with less pressure. Who knows?


Either way one of Subban or Sparks are going to be on waivers. Subban certainly didn't flop when Fleury was injured last year. Maybe Sparks goes on waivers and is claimed by the Leafshappy

I have to defend Sparks somewhat. Generally when he played last season, the Leafs played poorly and didn't provide goal support. Leafs have 8 goalies going into training camp. Yea two are ECHLers, plus two highly regarded first year pros, and four more.
Jul 25 at 12:08
#62
Joined: Jul 2018
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Quoting: palhal
Maybe it confirms what I've been saying for years, players don't many of their taxes at personal tax rates. Never hear about Jays and Raptors complaining about taxes but somehow it's a CapFriendly fascination.


The tax situation matters, just not near the extent that it seems like when looking at tax brackets. The reason we hear more about it in the NHL, is the same as the reason we have more weird trades, like this one, and salary retention, and needing page long explanations for how come something is good/bad. The NHL has a hard cap, no other league does, and the NHL's cap system is the most convoluted and complicated, so every little nuance get's talked about incessantly. Cap Friendly isn't the problem, it's a necessary tool for fans to have a place to interact and learn about a system we wouldn't understand otherwise.

The thing about taxes is that it actually effects lower paid players more proportionally. The reason is that very wealthy players actually only spend a small portion of their salaries and bonuses to live each year, more gets invested and likely sheltered under a Retirement Compensation Arrangement. This basically acts as a big RRSP (for Canadians) or 401K (for Americans). This is essentially a system where a players employer places a big percentage of the funds into a trust for the player, no income taxes are paid at that time. That money can be invested (investment income is taxed, but more favorably), and the money is taxed when withdrawn later, but it is taxed at the tax rate of their resident at that time, which is likely in retirement.

This can allow for some very interesting scenarios. This is also the reason you hear about players taking out mortgages despite having millions of dollars available. It would actually make sense to pay a mortgage, or even just renting rather than getting paid out enough at the current tax rate to fully pay for the home. It can even be possible to set up a mortgage within a trust so that the player can lend themselves money from their own trust, taking the money as a loan rather than interest.

So very wealthy players usually have more money they can defer the taxes on in this way, and can afford the financial management to make this sort of arrangement worthwhile. They can keep the income they need to live quite low compared to what they are savings (and what is considered an expense).

The lowest tier players don't really have this same option. A player making $1M won't be getting most of their money as signing bonus and won't really be able to shelter the majority of their money in this way. The percentage of their income each year that gets taxed at the rate of their current residence is much higher than it would be for an Athlete making $1M in salary and $15M in signing bonus, since there will be less it may be too costly to set up as efficiently. An RCA usually costs money for a lawyer to set up, but if you had to pay a lawyer $20,000 (not really sure what they actually cost, but it's not cheap) to set on up to protect say $30M over the next few years, the future savings of up to 10-15% in tax is would make it so you wouldn't bat an eye at that. However if you have a 1 year $800k contract with no signing bonus, it could be quite difficult to Justify spending say $20,000 to try and defer tax on what is left over, since the future tax savings may never add to cost. So for a player like that, it can matter more where they play. The thing is with that though, players making that (at a young age), are usually taking whatever guaranteed money they can get, so we don't hear about a player choosing Tampa over say New York for that reason, because chances are there was no bidding war.
Jul 25 at 12:40
#63
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Quoting: Danny12357
The tax situation matters, just not near the extent that it seems like when looking at tax brackets. The reason we hear more about it in the NHL, is the same as the reason we have more weird trades, like this one, and salary retention, and needing page long explanations for how come something is good/bad. The NHL has a hard cap, no other league does, and the NHL's cap system is the most convoluted and complicated, so every little nuance get's talked about incessantly. Cap Friendly isn't the problem, it's a necessary tool for fans to have a place to interact and learn about a system we wouldn't understand otherwise.

Gee, I think the NHL cap is fairly straight forwards. The NBA is so much more complicated. Even the NFL will non guaranteed money, guaranteed money, is complex. Last year the Buffalo Bills had 35% or 5Om of payroll being paid in "dead money" guys not even on the roster.

The Clarkson Leaf situation and the expectation that Marner will not be signed opening day sure makes the cap situation complex for mortals. But generally I find the NHL cap situation pretty straight forward. Of the cap is calculated daily so the format used by CapFriendly ain't exactly correct, but it's close enough to allow for knowledgable discussion.
Jul 26 at 11:44
#64
Joined: Jul 2018
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Quoting: palhal


The basic premise of the NHL salary cap is pretty simple, it's the fact that it's a strict hard cap, and all of the weird nuances that really make it quite complicated. There are GMs and execs in the league that don't fully understand the Cap, and it seems like every year or so we learn some rules, or some functionality of the cap that is different than we thought it was.

The NBA salary cap is a soft cap. It has a bevy of rules to understand, but once you know them it's actually not that complicated, and the soft cap makes things more forgiving. Throw in that the best players just get max deals, term limits are shorter, and the ability to sign your own players to amounts that put you over the cap with no penalty. There are some funny things about it, and some of the reason it is simple is just because an NBA team carries less contracts that have to interact with each other, and the cap is less restrictive, meaning it's all about saving actual money by avoiding luxury tax, there is no chance a team's payroll can become ineligible. Because of that, teams really don't need to challenge the wording of clauses, or the interpretation of subsections, they can just pay a luxury tax and be done with it.
Jul 28 at 7:18
#65
Retired V2 & V3 GM
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Quoting: brendanchisholm98
Less money for Marner ? Not sure what u mean? The Leafs save 750000$ in cap space as Clarkson will be placed on LTIR. Therefore they actually have more money to sign Marner


Ya but that’s still not much. So big win for VGK
Jul 28 at 8:33
#66
BC
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Quoting: Missouri
Ya but that’s still not much. So big win for VGK


No. In order to understand this trade you have to understand the upper limit salary cap constraints the the Leaf were facing and how LTIR works , which isnt actually a term used in the CBA. The long and short of the Leafs upper limit relief situation was they were not going to be able to get enough cap relief with just Hortons deal put on IR in regard to signing Marner if he were to sign after the season was to Start. The Leafs GM is playing chess while we are all playing checkers. Understanding teams cap situations isnt as easy as this site makes it look. Its a very complex thing.
Jul 28 at 9:17
#67
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Quoting: SpaghettiPasta
Yeah I was wrong I think he does too


You really think "players", entertainers, pay all money that make at the personal tax rate?
Jul 28 at 9:33
#68
I just need sauce
Joined: Oct 2017
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Quoting: palhal
You really think "players", entertainers, pay all money that make at the personal tax rate?


No, I said I was wrong
Aug 2 at 12:18
#69
Habs
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Leafs are stuck in LTIR
Sep 15 at 12:14
#70
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The Leafs completely won this trade. They traded away an underperforming Sparks, ($750 000 worth of space cleared) got David Clarkson in return (no cap hit since he is on the LTIR) and were even able to squeeze a draft pick out of it. Although it is a mid-to-late round draft pick, Dubas has shown he can pick well in the later rounds. Overall, Toronto won this trade by a long shot. Anyone who says differently can go check the statistics. (Again)
Sep 15 at 12:16
#71
Joined: Jul 2019
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Btw, Toronto signed Marner and training camp is underway.
Sep 15 at 12:30
#72
Formerly EthanK24
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Quoting: LeafsForever1
The Leafs completely won this trade. They traded away an underperforming Sparks, ($750 000 worth of space cleared) got David Clarkson in return (no cap hit since he is on the LTIR) and were even able to squeeze a draft pick out of it. Although it is a mid-to-late round draft pick, Dubas has shown he can pick well in the later rounds. Overall, Toronto won this trade by a long shot. Anyone who says differently can go check the statistics. (Again)


No. If you're Vegas, this is totally worth it, since you're actually able to accrue cap space, which makes things so much easier for them.
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Sep 15 at 2:17
#73
we can.. and we will
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Quoting: mondo
leafs are extremely vulnerable to the real (not fake) offer sheet that has been anticipated for a full month now.

dubas is going to be super owned when someone gives marner over 11 million, which many teams can afford.


This aged well.
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Sep 15 at 6:21
#74
LongtimeLeafsufferer
Joined: Jul 2015
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Quoting: EmperorFun
Giving the Clarkson contract to another team in cap hell. Well done Vegas, well done.


Quoting: CGM
This makes zero sense, i know Toronto had a lot of money but paying LTIR on his contract is worth at least a second, and Sparks too ... worst move for Dubas yet ... and I like Dubas.


Don't any of the folks that said it was bad deal for Toronto understand LTIR?shakes head
Sep 15 at 6:29
#75
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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The Clarkson trade was made because it did give the Leafs in effect additional cap space IF, IF Marner had missed any time between October 1 and December 1....apparently 750,000 in savings if Marner had missed two months.
Now that Marner is signed, the Clarkson LTIR means nothing.....despite what so many Leaf haters (don't) think.
So the trade was Sparks for a fourth.
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