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Why is Aho not a comparable

Created by: leafsFan1996
Team: 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Aug. 29, 2019
Published: Aug. 29, 2019
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Aho is in the same tier as Rantanen, Point and Marner.

Aho is the best forward on his team which is not true for the other players listed and he is a center which adds more value than rantenan or Marner.

Sure it was an offersheet but he still had to accept the money. I don't understand why this is not a precedent for the other high end RFA's. especially with no other viable offersheet threats which lowers the leverage the rfa's currently have.

it bugs me when people (especially on here) try to galaxy brain why Marner should make 2-3 million more than his direct comparables.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:13 p.m.
#76
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Most teams don't have the same problem the Leafs have with two 10+ million dollar players and another on the way wink
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:15 p.m.
#77
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
In the years that Malkin outscored Crosby, was there an argument that Crosby wasn't the best player on his team or the best player in the world?


Just to chime in on what I think is an important distinction - point totals are great for determining contracts and contract comparables, but in terms of player evaluation, they should have little impact.

So, it is entirely possible that someone could argue that Marner deserves the same contract as Matthews while admitting that he isn't as valuable as a player. IMO that's a big disconnect I see when I read thru most of the Marner contract discussions around here. In the eyes of a rational armchair GM, Marner shouldn't sniff $10m unless it's on an 8-yr mega deal - he's not the best player on the team and he doesn't play the most important role. But to someone who sees things from player/agent's side of things, the fact that Marner is the leading scorer on the team for 2 straight years is the obvious argument to push for the most money. (It's why this thing is dragging out for so long.)
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:16 p.m.
#78
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Not quite, because the bonuses a player gets offered, if they earn them, also gets taxed. It gets taxed to a higher percentage and raises the cap hit of the player, so that bring it back to the lower tax rate in the US. He may not like playing with all the pressure of what you called "one of the craziest hockey markets", Aho plays in Carolina, a small market, he doesn't have that pressure. Aho doesn't need the endorsments because his dad is Karpat GM, he is used as an Icon for the NHL in Karpat, it's a differtent situation entirely, it's why they are not comparable


That isn't correct, what is also not mentioned or known is how bonus money is paid. For all we know they are paid these bonuses in stock options or several other ways that would provide big tax savings. Also having money up front allows investment of funds that will see much larger gains than having less paid over a longer period. Fans on here like to pretend they know it all but the reality is 95% of what goes into contracts isn't at all known by the fans, media or even players. Agents are essentially lawyers and contracts are filled with information that is way too complex for the media to report on so fans just go off about 5% of the story.

Anyways all this is moot, in any other market, Marner asking for what he is asking would be met with universal scorn. But he is in TO and half of the fans who drive attention to TO actively hate the team. Its such a weird microcosm in the NHL.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:16 p.m.
#79
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
So Aho deserves more than Marner?


Where did I say that then? Don't try to put words in my mouth
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:16 p.m.
#80
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Quoting: F50marco
Teams like Carolina who matched the Aho contract?....... I don't presume to know the finances of the rich and you shouldn't to. I think those teams can't offer it as much as the big teams can but when push comes to shove, they think "signing that cheque is no big deal for me". - Tom Dundon.

Now if the entire team wanted all their money right away, i think that may be a little different but we all know not every player can negotiate to have their money up front either. Its always the bigger name players really and every team only has 1 or two of them anyway.


Kapanen and Johnsson get more than half of their money up front and they are just depth guys.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:18 p.m.
#81
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Quoting: F50marco
Most teams don't have the same problem the Leafs have with two 10+ million dollar players and another on the way wink


It really isn't a problem, Tampa will be a team with 4 9+ million dollar players soon enough, they also have more than 1 contract that is questionable and no one says anything about them.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:20 p.m.
#82
Formerly Jamiepo
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Buddy, Marner plays in a big market, maybe he doesn't like the pressure. Aho has stated he loves not having that kind of pressure on him to go out and put up 50-50 for 100 every damn season, he can have fun on the ice. Being a big market doesn't always help. Again as I stated, Aho has endorsments in Finland, his dad is Karpat GM so he is seen as a Finnish Icon out there for the NHL. He also signed the offersheet in Montreal to play in Carolina that's well documented, the player, agent and team have said this. It's 900k more in Carolina than elsewhere.

My point here is they just aren't comparable. Also.... Aho was better after April 10th than Marner wink


Ummm.... I don’t see anywhere in this pile of drivel where you made any sort of point. That 900k is just taxes it probably dwindles further down after jock tax.

My point wasn’t to make fun of Carolina for being a small market team. Even Aho’s endorsements in Finland pale in comparison to what marner is able to do in Toronto.

Take all of the stupidity out about who is going to make a bit more than the other. Are they comparable? Yes!! Aho plays centre and has more goals. Marner plays the wing and had more points. If anything the edge goes to Aho.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:20 p.m.
#83
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Quoting: A_K
Just to chime in on what I think is an important distinction - point totals are great for determining contracts and contract comparables, but in terms of player evaluation, they should have little impact.

So, it is entirely possible that someone could argue that Marner deserves the same contract as Matthews while admitting that he isn't as valuable as a player. IMO that's a big disconnect I see when I read thru most of the Marner contract discussions around here. In the eyes of a rational armchair GM, Marner shouldn't sniff $10m unless it's on an 8-yr mega deal - he's not the best player on the team and he doesn't play the most important role. But to someone who sees things from player/agent's side of things, the fact that Marner is the leading scorer on the team for 2 straight years is the obvious argument to push for the most money. (It's why this thing is dragging out for so long.)


Well said my friend! I do think at this point, Dubas is forcing other GM's to make a move and someone is going to blink, I don't think for a second all of these RFA's are going to miss time. Its becoming a common theme now from insiders that someone is going to blink soon.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:21 p.m.
#84
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
That isn't correct, what is also not mentioned or known is how bonus money is paid. For all we know they are paid these bonuses in stock options or several other ways that would provide big tax savings. Also having money up front allows investment of funds that will see much larger gains than having less paid over a longer period. Fans on here like to pretend they know it all but the reality is 95% of what goes into contracts isn't at all known by the fans, media or even players. Agents are essentially lawyers and contracts are filled with information that is way too complex for the media to report on so fans just go off about 5% of the story.

Anyways all this is moot, in any other market, Marner asking for what he is asking would be met with universal scorn. But he is in TO and half of the fans who drive attention to TO actively hate the team. Its such a weird microcosm in the NHL.


That is correct. They are facts, facts means they are factual they cannot be challenged

You get taxed on bonuses, and you get taxed more on the big lump sums than you do if you take it in smaller incriments. Have you ever seen a written NHL contract? There REALLY isn't much to it, you're trying to make it out to be this big 300 page thing, but it REALLY isn't. It's quite simple to get a hold of. Anyway I digress.

Marner is asking for what he is because his agent wants to get as much money as he can for his player, the agent is just doing his job, Marner probably doesn't give a shiny sh*t about what he makes, he just wants to get on the ice somewhere, hence he's in Norway or Denmark or somewhere right now. It's the agent doing what he does, and Marner getting the stick for it
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:23 p.m.
#85
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Kapanen and Johnsson get more than half of their money up front and they are just depth guys.


So what? Bonus money is simply a tool to get players to sign. Its not a distinct advantage no other teams have at their disposal.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:24 p.m.
#86
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Quoting: Jamiepo
Ummm.... I don’t see anywhere in this pile of drivel where you made any sort of point. That 900k is just taxes it probably dwindles further down after jock tax.

My point wasn’t to make fun of Carolina for being a small market team. Even Aho’s endorsements in Finland pale in comparison to what marner is able to do in Toronto.

Take all of the stupidity out about who is going to make a bit more than the other. Are they comparable? Yes!! Aho plays centre and has more goals. Marner plays the wing and had more points. If anything the edge goes to Aho.


They are not comparable their circumstances are completely different. There is WAY too much that differs to compare them. One is a playmaker, one does it all but not to as high a standard. One constantly gets endorsments from Finland, and makes more from endorsments in a year than he does in the NHL, the other is currently in Europe somwhere looking to play with some Danish team or something. One is playing with a childhood friend in a small market with no pressure, the other is playing in a hockey meccha where he's constantly under the microscope. They are not comparable in the slightest. They even play different positions FFS.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:24 p.m.
#87
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Well said my friend! I do think at this point, Dubas is forcing other GM's to make a move and someone is going to blink, I don't think for a second all of these RFA's are going to miss time. Its becoming a common theme now from insiders that someone is going to blink soon.


It would certainly make me a little more comfortable if they would sign before my FH draft this weekend lol. That probably won't happen, but I do think there will be resolution on all of these guys before the season starts. That being said, I think this stance by the RFA players/agents is going to lead to a lot more bridge deals and deals straight to UFA than we've seen in the past. These guys that are without contracts are very much impact players, and I think teams will end up sacrificing some UFA years in order to get them to camp. We'll have to wait and see.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:26 p.m.
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Where did I say that then? Don't try to put words in my mouth


To be honest, I am having a lot of trouble following what you are trying to say. The point is eluding me.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:26 p.m.
#89
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
It really isn't a problem, Tampa will be a team with 4 9+ million dollar players soon enough, they also have more than 1 contract that is questionable and no one says anything about them.


"Problem" was a loose term. Its a good problem if anything. wink

Same goes for Tampa but what Tampa has that other teams like the Leafs don't, is lower tax and team of guys all willing to sign for less because of the philosophy they've put into place. helps when the weather is also nice and the team is literally an all star team to boot. Less media pressure, etc.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:26 p.m.
#90
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Quoting: Caniac2000
That is correct. They are facts, facts means they are factual they cannot be challenged

You get taxed on bonuses, and you get taxed more on the big lump sums than you do if you take it in smaller incriments. Have you ever seen a written NHL contract? There REALLY isn't much to it, you're trying to make it out to be this big 300 page thing, but it REALLY isn't. It's quite simple to get a hold of. Anyway I digress.

Marner is asking for what he is because his agent wants to get as much money as he can for his player, the agent is just doing his job, Marner probably doesn't give a shiny sh*t about what he makes, he just wants to get on the ice somewhere, hence he's in Norway or Denmark or somewhere right now. It's the agent doing what he does, and Marner getting the stick for it


Take a gander at this.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/kyle-dubas-wont-apologize-flexing-maple-leafs-financial-muscle/
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:28 p.m.
#91
Formerly Jamiepo
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Quoting: A_K
Just to chime in on what I think is an important distinction - point totals are great for determining contracts and contract comparables, but in terms of player evaluation, they should have little impact.

So, it is entirely possible that someone could argue that Marner deserves the same contract as Matthews while admitting that he isn't as valuable as a player. IMO that's a big disconnect I see when I read thru most of the Marner contract discussions around here. In the eyes of a rational armchair GM, Marner shouldn't sniff $10m unless it's on an 8-yr mega deal - he's not the best player on the team and he doesn't play the most important role. But to someone who sees things from player/agent's side of things, the fact that Marner is the leading scorer on the team for 2 straight years is the obvious argument to push for the most money. (It's why this thing is dragging out for so long.)


Disagree with the first part about point totals. Far more things go into that equation. A player like Stone doesn’t get 9.5m for being a 60 point guy. On the flip side of things for marner, importance to the team factor in. His importance to the leafs is where I think his camp is over estimating his value.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:31 p.m.
#92
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Quoting: F50marco
"Problem" was a loose term. Its a good problem if anything. wink

Same goes for Tampa but what Tampa has that other teams like the Leafs don't, is lower tax and team of guys all willing to sign for less because of the philosophy they've put into place. helps when the weather is also nice and the team is literally an all star team to boot. Less media pressure, etc.


Personally I think TO's cap situation will soon be the envy of the league. The one thing everyone seems to not notice, or are willfully ignoring is that TO is still young. They are just entering their window of contention and have zero bad contracts left on the team. Tampa can say our stars make less all they want but they have several 5 M dollar contracts given to depth guys and half of their stars are approaching or are over 30 and could start declining before too long. Stars making star money is never a problem, depth guys who can be replaced with just as good cheaper options are a problem.

Guys like Palat, Gourde, Johnson etc make too much and in some cases are getting a tad old and this is where Tampa could get into trouble. TO does not have that problem at all.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:32 p.m.
#93
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Quoting: Jamiepo
Disagree with the first part about point totals. Far more things go into that equation. A player like Stone doesn’t get 9.5m for being a 60 point guy. On the flip side of things for marner, importance to the team factor in. His importance to the leafs is where I think his camp is over estimating his value.


At the same time Stone wouldn't get 9.5 million if he didn't score at above a point a game over the past couple of seasons. Point totals will increase the ask for sure. Whether its a good argument or not is a different story.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:32 p.m.
#94
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Quoting: A_K
Just to chime in on what I think is an important distinction - point totals are great for determining contracts and contract comparables, but in terms of player evaluation, they should have little impact.

So, it is entirely possible that someone could argue that Marner deserves the same contract as Matthews while admitting that he isn't as valuable as a player. IMO that's a big disconnect I see when I read thru most of the Marner contract discussions around here. In the eyes of a rational armchair GM, Marner shouldn't sniff $10m unless it's on an 8-yr mega deal - he's not the best player on the team and he doesn't play the most important role. But to someone who sees things from player/agent's side of things, the fact that Marner is the leading scorer on the team for 2 straight years is the obvious argument to push for the most money. (It's why this thing is dragging out for so long.)


Hey hey hey, this is a discussion for us "Northerners". Get back to your Stanley Cup over zealousness and fairy tale stories. laugh

All jokes aside, you've hit the nail on the head. The thing people need to realize on both sides of the argument though is that the Marner contract is setting a precedent because there really isn't many good comparables and their are valid arguments coming from both sides. There isn't a right or wrong answer here. Its that whomever side blinks first, that is the side that "loses". It really could go either way in the sense that isn't as straight forward as it seems.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:40 p.m.
#95
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Personally I think TO's cap situation will soon be the envy of the league. The one thing everyone seems to not notice, or are willfully ignoring is that TO is still young. They are just entering their window of contention and have zero bad contracts left on the team. Tampa can say our stars make less all they want but they have several 5 M dollar contracts given to depth guys and half of their stars are approaching or are over 30 and could start declining before too long. Stars making star money is never a problem, depth guys who can be replaced with just as good cheaper options are a problem.

Guys like Palat, Gourde, Johnson etc make too much and in some cases are getting a tad old and this is where Tampa could get into trouble. TO does not have that problem at all.


Every team has bad contracts. They come and go just as the Leafs had to find ways to get out from under them this off season. That came at a cost. The bad teams are the ones who keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

I think the envy of the league is a bit rich. Eventually when the team will start having to cut cost to keep those big name players so the depth will take a hit. Reilly is up for contract soon, so is Andersen. Barrie and Muzzin are gone this off season unless an (Normal UFA) overpay happens. Considering this team hasn't won a round yet, I think it'll be the envy once they show they're all worth that money together.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:41 p.m.
#96
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Quoting: F50marco
Hey hey hey, this is a discussion for us "Northerners". Get back to your Stanley Cup over zealousness and fairy tale stories. laugh

All jokes aside, you've hit the nail on the head. The thing people need to realize on both sides of the argument though is that the Marner contract is setting a precedent because there really isn't many good comparables and their are valid arguments coming from both sides. There isn't a right or wrong answer here. Its that whomever side blinks first, that is the side that "loses". It really could go either way in the sense that isn't as straight forward as it seems.


Haha no such thing as overzealous when it comes to the cup! Fine, I'll go back to re-watching playoff games... again
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:41 p.m.
#97
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Kind of amusing that, if the rumours were true, Marner could have been locked up before last season for 9Mx8.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:42 p.m.
#98
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Quoting: A_K
It would certainly make me a little more comfortable if they would sign before my FH draft this weekend lol. That probably won't happen, but I do think there will be resolution on all of these guys before the season starts. That being said, I think this stance by the RFA players/agents is going to lead to a lot more bridge deals and deals straight to UFA than we've seen in the past. These guys that are without contracts are very much impact players, and I think teams will end up sacrificing some UFA years in order to get them to camp. We'll have to wait and see.


I think the whole get to FA topic is a bit overblown, I don't think that is the biggest driver for the players. I think these guys want to maximize their earnings over their best seasons. For example Matthews is 100% going to make a lot more than McDavid over their careers. Matthews will be signing his next deal as he turns 27, my guess is he'll sign a 5 year deal in the 14 million a year range maybe more. McDavid will sign his next contract when he's turning 30 and by then everyone is going to know that giving a 30 year old an 8 year mega deal is a terrible idea. We'll be able to thank LA and San Jose for that one. So what will likely happen is McDavid will have to for way less term to get more money or get a smaller contract for longer term.

I think a lot of young guys are going to go for shorter terms so they can make sure they can stay closer to what they should be making. None of these guys want to end up like Pastrnak, McKinnon or Shiefele. Losing out on getting huge money in their early years.
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Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:46 p.m.
#99
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Quoting: F50marco
Every team has bad contracts. They come and go just as the Leafs had to find ways to get out from under them this off season. That came at a cost. The bad teams are the ones who keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

I think the envy of the league is a bit rich. Eventually when the team will start having to cut cost to keep those big name players so the depth will take a hit. Reilly is up for contract soon, so is Andersen. Barrie and Muzzin are gone this off season unless an (Normal UFA) overpay happens. Considering this team hasn't won a round yet, I think it'll be the envy once they show they're all worth that money together.


Trades can be made, the Marlies have been a terrific feeder for the team and they have some high end defensive prospects that will join the team in the near future. The bad contracts you mentioned were thanks to Lou and Dubas has jettisoned them. I just don't think he'll change his stance and start giving big money to depth guys that can be replaced for cheap. Next year I imagine he'll find some creative trade to balance the roster where needed.
Aug. 29, 2019 at 12:50 p.m.
#100
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
I think the whole get to FA topic is a bit overblown, I don't think that is the biggest driver for the players. I think these guys want to maximize their earnings over their best seasons. For example Matthews is 100% going to make a lot more than McDavid over their careers. Matthews will be signing his next deal as he turns 27, my guess is he'll sign a 5 year deal in the 14 million a year range maybe more. McDavid will sign his next contract when he's turning 30 and by then everyone is going to know that giving a 30 year old an 8 year mega deal is a terrible idea. We'll be able to thank LA and San Jose for that one. So what will likely happen is McDavid will have to for way less term to get more money or get a smaller contract for longer term.

I think a lot of young guys are going to go for shorter terms so they can make sure they can stay closer to what they should be making. None of these guys want to end up like Pastrnak, McKinnon or Shiefele. Losing out on getting huge money in their early years.


Not overblown IMO. Thanks to the leverage that players gain by hitting UFA, they can expect to make the most money by reaching UFA in their prime. You're citing Matthews... that's exactly the example I'm talking about - hitting UFA ASAP so he controls his next deal, and it's during his prime vs in his decline. I think as we get close to the season, a lot of these guys will "win" their negotiation by removing UFA years from the deals they're offered, and signing shorter deals that give them the power on the next ones. Most of these guys are too impactful to sit out.
 
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