Forums/Armchair-GM

TML 2020 aka pulling strings together from whats left

Created by: Laudan
Initial Creation Date: Sep 13, 2019
Published: Sep 17 at 6:26 am
Team: 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs
Team Explanation
Z.Hyman on LTIR as possibly next victim of Matthews and Marners 2M + 2M overpayment
.
.
my guess is Muzzin 4 x 5M
and Dermott 2 x 2,7M
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
Bracco, Jeremy2$775,000
Engvall, Pierre2$775,000
Marchment, Mason2$775,000
Mikheyev, Ilya2$1,200,000
Buyouts
  • Mikhail Grabovski: $0
Retained Salary Transactions
  • Phil Kessel: $1,200,000 (15%)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2020
TOR
CBJ
TOR
VGK
TOR
CAR
COL
EDM
SJS
STL
WPG
2021
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2022
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
19$84,000,000$70,160,199$0$532,500$13,839,801
Left WingCenterRight Wing
TOR
Mikheyev, Ilya
$1,200,000
LW, RW
RFA
TOR
Tavares, John
$11,000,000
C
NMC
UFA - 5
TOR
Marner, Mitchell
$10,893,000
RW
UFA - 5
TOR
Moore, Trevor
$775,000
RW, LW
RFA - 1
TOR
Matthews, Auston
$11,634,000
C
UFA - 4
TOR
Nylander, William
$6,962,366
RW, C
UFA - 4
TOR
Johnsson, Andreas
$3,400,000
LW
UFA - 3
TOR
Kerfoot, Alexander
$3,500,000
C, LW
UFA - 3
TOR
Kapanen, Kasperi
$3,200,000
RW
RFA - 2
TOR
Marchment, Mason
$775,000
LW
RFA
TOR
Engvall, Pierre
$775,000
LW, RW
RFA
TOR
Bracco, Jeremy
$775,000
RW
RFA
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
TOR
Rielly, Morgan
$5,000,000
LD
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Andersen, Frederik
$5,000,000
G
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Sandin, Rasmus
$894,167
LD
RFA - 2
TOR
Woll, Joseph
$800,000
G
RFA - 1
TOR
Liljegren, Timothy
$863,333
RD
RFA - 2
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
TOR
Agostino, Kenny
$737,500
LW
UFA - 1
TOR
Hyman, Zach
$2,250,000
LW
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Lindgren, Jesper
$775,833
D
RFA - 1

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Sep 17 at 6:26
#1
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 2,605
Likes: 1,015
Edited Sep 17 at 3:58
My evaluation of Dubas work till now

Tavares - signing ............................................................................................... ( A ) i think that was a sure shot on JT side right after he hits UFA but still let him have merits
Nylander - signing............................................................................................ ( B+ ) explained below
TDL 2019 - trades..............................................................................................( D+ ) if not Muzzin B+ trade it would be F
Muzzin - trade .................................................................................................. ( B+ ) we could hunt someone younger with longer term like Manson or Pesce for additional 2x 2nd
Matthews - signing ...........................................................................................( C- ) avalanche of overpayment dragged by this one
DEPTH - signings...............................................................................................( A ) great job with one way minimum wage contracts on Sparks, Rosen, Borgman, Moore

The above were written at TDL 2019

DRAFT 2019 -................................................................................................ ( B+ ) only focusing on Marleau maneuver
FA 2019 -........................................................................................................ ( B+ ) getting rid of second bad contract and bringing in RHD Gardiner
DEPTH FA - signings....................................................................................... ( A- ) some veteran RHD for 700k could be fished also )
Kapanen - signing........................................................................................... ( A- )
Johnsson - signing........................................................................................... ( A- )
Kerfoot - signing............................................................................................... ( A )
Marner – signing ...............................................................................................( C- ) as predicted in Matthews remark



NYLANDER (minor fail )

i was giving him 7 x 6,8M in my simulations in Summer 2018 cause 61 + 61 and inflation with cap raise ( otherwise point-contibution would make him 6,5M max)

i still believe Nylander was a pre-made setup, which allowed TML to give him money he wanted but with higher pay-check this year cause it was affordable. By holdout he was losing 20k per day, which in two months resulted in 1,2M deficit on his account. Distract that from 10,27M and you get 2M surplus to spread over 6 years on top of 6,9M contract which makes him 6 x 7,2M, so 600k above what he should get based on his previous two seasons production .In my books not such a tragedy in overpayment. Proly that cost TML the resigning of P.Lindholm at 1,5M next year.

Before signing comparable to :
Kutcherov ( 3 x 4,7M on top of 66 + 65)
Gaudreau ( 6 x 6,7M on top of 64 + 78 )
Monahan ( 7 x 6,4M on top of 34 + 63 + 62 )


MATTHEWS ( major fail )

in my books from Summer 2018 he was 8 x 11M cause 69 + 63 + "75" and riding on hype ( otherwise points-contribution would make him 8x8M max )

Lets say for the sake of argument Matthews is as good as McDavid ( he isnt, but still )

McDavid signed 8 x 12,5M in 2017, which would be 13,7M in 2018 with Cap raise ( 5% ) and rounded to 10% cause of "inflation".

8 x 13,7M
7 x 12,5M
6 x 11,3M
5 x 10,1M

The above should be logical descending contracts for Matthews ofc after he would score 100 points in his second season and rolling another 100 this season. You can figure the overpayment in $$ / years of contract by yourself. Maybe not even a tragedy if it wouldnt make precedens for all the other contracts to be signed.

Two other names come to mind ....Draisaitl and Eichel, both marked as centers, both signed 2017-2018, both considered overpayment... so ideal comparables to Matthews

Draisaitl.............51 + 77...............8 x 8,5M ( 128 points in first two seasons )....again if he would sign in 2018 with same stats, it would be 8 x 9,4M..........so 5 x 6,5M ( on spot )
Eichel.................56 + 57...............8 x 10M ( 113 points in first two seasons )....again if he would sign in 2018 with same stats, it would be 8 x 11M..........so 5 x 8M ( overpayment )
Matthews..........63 + 69...............5 x 11,6M ( 132 points in first two seasons )

2M overpayment on this if he would be McDavid's level and what i can read from this contract is he is the greedy one ( not Nylander ) and wants to hit UFA asap and move to whoever gives him more.....so another minus from me on his account from TML fan perspective

Ppl here waveing around with : Matthews just gave TML a discount with his 5 x 11,634M ( on top of 63 + 69 seasons ) cause he asked for 8 x 13M ( again on top of 63 + 69 seasons ) and thats his mercifull bowdown to help TML with cap troubles in 2019/2020.
8 x 13,7M is McDavids money if he signed in summer 2018 instead 2017 and if we calculate in the Cap raise and "inflation". And hes not McDavid.

Matthews logic of helping TML : 8 x 13M
........................................................7 x 12,6M
........................................................6 x 12,1M
........................................................5 x 11,634M

Each year of Matthews from 6 to 8 as UFA years is worth 455k.......i mean

Or reversed ( assuming one UFA year averages 800k )
........................................................5 x 11,634M
........................................................6 x 12,434M
........................................................7 x 13,234M
........................................................8 x 14,034M

After those 5x 11,634M Chiarelli looks like genius with McDavid and Draisaitl 8y contracts......

TDL 2019

MUZZIN

Great addition with no doubt, but with two 2nd rounds ( 2019, 2020 ) i believe TML could land Manson, Spurgeon or even Pesce, which would be younger, defensive RHD and with longer term

GARDINER

you dont let ppl like JvR and Gardiner walk ( even Bozak ), even if being what ppl like to call buyer or not

ANA – Montour ( just cause he was traded this TDL )
ANA -- Manson
CAR -- Pesce
VAN -- Stecher ( mostly as team with D in »rebuild« with Gardiner as center point )
MIN – Spurgeon ( JvR at 2018 TDL )
NSH – Ellis ( JvR at 2018 TDL )

»Moneyballing«: Building better defence for the price of overstacked offence soon enough, even if on the way to playoffs wouldnt hurt at all, so JvR should be sacrificed for one of those guys at TDL 2018 ( i dare to claim better D last year would compensate for the points JvR brought to the game ), Gardiner at TDL 2019, that would bring two top RHDs which would proly bring TML further then first round playoffs, cause i assume it will be the fate this year also...

Fact is that in last few years TML succesfully drafted the Offence, added big piece of Elite with Tavares...so some offensive power should be thrown away for the sake to build proper D, escpeciall now when late round drafted kids are rolling like being first rounders.

DEPTH

Nothing to add here, school examples of minimum one way contracts, started with Johnsson, Ennis and continuing with Moore, Rosen, Borgman, Sparks

DRAFT 2019

I was saying we will need to suck it till Marleau on the payroll, cause he was hindering TML for getting D rebuilt with knowing Gardiner and Hainsey are out and their money will go to Marner. Then he was dumped together with 1st. Could be better, was hoping for 2nd max

FA 2019

Then Zaitsev was swapped for Ceci, which is slight stepdown from my point of view, Brown got out for 3rd ( which many of you were saying here, i was humble again with 4th ) so its actually 1 for 1 with giving both players new start. Could be better ? I dont know, its patching and not upgrading ( or maybe just getting another asset to swap at TDL )

And finally Kadri ( that i was trading from last summer and was flaked as hell from all sides cause he will stay Leaf for lifetime ), where the trade looks like win on paper, Kadri for Kerfoot which is again slightly stepdown at first sight but kid is younger and can come like 1M cheaper ( also read kid is two-way efficient as Kadri was ) and 3y of Kadri + Rosen + 3rd for Barries rental also seems, well, with Kadri-has-to-go in my books its not that hard to swallow. Barrie again isnt upgrading but patching cause we just got another Gardiner with him, this time RHDed. Also he will command 8M at least next year, which i think isnt doable

So all in all, Zaitsev = Ceci ( slight loss but 1y vs 5y contract ), Kadri = Kerfoot ( slight loss short term tho kid can pan out better in few years ) and Barrie = Gardiner is just putting TML where they were in 2018/2019. Contenders but again without shutdown Ds in top Pairs ( which i think is a must, as i already said, i may be biased after 25 years between pipes, but i really never liked to be sitting duck and i think Andersen neither )

DEPTH 2 ( at FA )

4#C in Spezza for 700k, 27 Points Agostino for 700k, not sure about 4#C Shore ( pun intended ) but still ...nothing to add here......


KAPANEN

My take would be 2 x 2,7M cause 9 + "50" doesnt earn you nothing over 3M, but with recent trend Dubarelli is setting, maybe 1 x 2,9M for him, just to show we can overpay them all

League Comparables :
Bjorkstrand...8 + 13 + 40 got him 3 x 2,5M
Danault.........10 + 44 + 25 got him 3 x 3M ( arbitration )

JOHNSSON

Same as for Kapanen, tho hes one season of stats short, but lets say he gets the same

Comparables :
Arvidsson ( 7 x 4,250M on top of 16 + 61 , tho i think kid screwed himself a bit with term to long )
Danault 3 x 3M ( arbitration )

KERFOOT

When acquired i gave the kid 4 x 4M ( and 2 x 3,5M ) but they managed to sign him 4 x 3,5M....im going to sit in the corner

MARNER ( major fail )

Back in Summer 2018 mostly went with 7 x 8M cause 61 + 69 + "90" and taking "hometown discount" ( otherwise points-contribution would make him 8x8,5M max )

Comparables :
Kutcherov ( 3 x 4,7M on top of 66 + 65)
Panarin ( 2 x 6M on top of 77 + 74 )

Aaaaand he did it again........


KYLE DUBAS
GRADE YEAR : JUNIOR
FINAL GRADE : B
MENTOR : CHIARELLI
Sep 17 at 7:22
#2
I just need sauce
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,873
Likes: 739
Quoting: Laudan
My evaluation of Dubas work till now

Tavares - signing ............................................................................................... ( A ) i think that was a sure shot on JT side right after he hits UFA but still let him have merits
Nylander - signing............................................................................................ ( B+ ) explained below
TDL 2019 - trades..............................................................................................( D+ ) if not Muzzin B+ trade it would be F
Muzzin - trade .................................................................................................. ( B+ ) we could hunt someone younger with longer term like Manson or Pesce for additional 2x 2nd
Matthews - signing ...........................................................................................( C- ) avalanche of overpayment dragged by this one
DEPTH - signings...............................................................................................( A ) great job with one way minimum wage contracts on Sparks, Rosen, Borgman, Moore

The above were written at TDL 2019

DRAFT 2019 -................................................................................................ ( B+ ) only focusing on Marleau maneuver
FA 2019 -........................................................................................................ ( B ) getting rid of second bad contract and bringing in RHD Gardiner
DEPTH FA - signings....................................................................................... ( A- ) some veteran RHD for 700k could be fished also )
Kapanen - signing........................................................................................... ( A )
Johnsson - signing........................................................................................... ( A )
Kerfoot - signing............................................................................................... ( A )
Marner – signing ...............................................................................................( C- ) as predicted in Matthews remark



NYLANDER (minor fail )

i was giving him 7 x 6,8M in my simulations in Summer 2018 cause 61 + 61 and inflation with cap raise ( otherwise point-contibution would make him 6,5M max)

i still believe Nylander was a pre-made setup, which allowed TML to give him money he wanted but with higher pay-check this year cause it was affordable. By holdout he was losing 20k per day, which in two months resulted in 1,2M deficit on his account. Distract that from 10,27M and you get 2M surplus to spread over 6 years on top of 6,9M contract which makes him 6 x 7,2M, so 600k above what he should get based on his previous two seasons production .In my books not such a tragedy in overpayment. Proly that cost TML the resigning of P.Lindholm at 1,5M next year.

Before signing comparable to :
Kutcherov ( 3 x 4,7M on top of 66 + 65)
Gaudreau ( 6 x 6,7M on top of 64 + 78 )
Monahan ( 7 x 6,4M on top of 34 + 63 + 62 )


MATTHEWS ( major fail )

in my books from Summer 2018 he was 8 x 11M cause 69 + 63 + "75" and riding on hype ( otherwise points-contribution would make him 8x8M max )

Lets say for the sake of argument Matthews is as good as McDavid ( he isnt, but still )

McDavid signed 8 x 12,5M in 2017, which would be 13,7M in 2018 with Cap raise ( 5% ) and rounded to 10% cause of "inflation".

8 x 13,7M
7 x 12,5M
6 x 11,3M
5 x 10,1M

The above should be logical descending contracts for Matthews ofc after he would score 100 points in his second season and rolling another 100 this season. You can figure the overpayment in $$ / years of contract by yourself. Maybe not even a tragedy if it wouldnt make precedens for all the other contracts to be signed.

Two other names come to mind ....Draisaitl and Eichel, both marked as centers, both signed 2017-2018, both considered overpayment... so ideal comparables to Matthews

Draisaitl.............51 + 77...............8 x 8,5M ( 128 points in first two seasons )....again if he would sign in 2018 with same stats, it would be 8 x 9,4M..........so 5 x 6,5M ( on spot )
Eichel.................56 + 57...............8 x 10M ( 113 points in first two seasons )....again if he would sign in 2018 with same stats, it would be 8 x 11M..........so 5 x 8M ( overpayment )
Matthews..........63 + 69...............5 x 11,6M ( 132 points in first two seasons )

2M overpayment on this if he would be McDavid's level and what i can read from this contract is he is the greedy one ( not Nylander ) and wants to hit UFA asap and move to whoever gives him more.....so another minus from me on his account from TML fan perspective

Ppl here waveing around with : Matthews just gave TML a discount with his 5 x 11,634M ( on top of 63 + 69 seasons ) cause he asked for 8 x 13M ( again on top of 63 + 69 seasons ) and thats his mercifull bowdown to help TML with cap troubles in 2019/2020.
8 x 13,7M is McDavids money if he signed in summer 2018 instead 2017. And hes not McDavid.

Matthews logic of helping TML : 8 x 13M
........................................................7 x 12,6M
........................................................6 x 12,1M
........................................................5 x 11,634M

Each year of Matthews from 6 to 8 as UFA years is worth 455k.......i mean

Or reversed ( assuming one UFA year averages 800k )
........................................................5 x 11,634M
........................................................6 x 12,434M
........................................................7 x 13,234M
........................................................8 x 14,034M

After those 5x 11,634M Chiarelli looks like genius with McDavid and Draisaitl 8y contracts......

TDL 2019

MUZZIN

Great addition with no doubt, but with two 2nd rounds ( 2019, 2020 ) i believe TML could land Manson or even Pesce, which would be younger, defensive RHD and with longer term

GARDINER

you dont let ppl like JvR and Gardiner walk ( even Bozak ), even if being what ppl like to call buyer or not

ANA – Montour ( just cause he was traded this TDL )
ANA -- Manson
CAR -- Pesce
VAN -- Stecher ( mostly as team with D in »rebuild« with Gardiner as center point )
MIN – Spurgeon ( JvR at 2018 TDL )
NSH – Ellis ( JvR at 2018 TDL )

»Moneyballing«: Building better defence for the price of overstacked offence soon enough, even if on the way to playoffs wouldnt hurt at all, so JvR should be sacrificed for one of those guys at TDL 2018 ( i dare to claim better D last year would compensate for the points JvR brought to the game ), Gardiner at TDL 2019, that would bring two top RHDs which would proly bring TML further then first round playoffs, cause i assume it will be the fate this year also...

Fact is that in last few years TML succesfully drafted the Offence, added big piece of Elite with Tavares...so some offensive power should be thrown away for the sake to build proper D, escpeciall now when late round drafted kids are rolling like being first rounders.

DEPTH

Nothing to add here, school examples of minimum one way contracts, started with Johnsson, Ennis and continuing with Moore, Rosen, Borgman, Sparks

DRAFT 2019

I was saying we will need to suck it till Marleau on the payroll, cause he was hindering TML for getting D rebuilt with knowing Gardiner and Hainsey are out and their money will go to Marner. Then he was dumped together with 1st. Could be better, was hoping for 2nd max

FA 2019

Then Zaitsev was swapped for Ceci, which is slight stepdown from my point of view, Brown got out for 3rd ( which many of you were saying here, i was humble again with 4th ) so its actually 1 for 1 with giving both players new start. Could be better ? I dont know, its patching and not upgrading ( or maybe just getting another asset to swap at TDL )

And finally Kadri ( that i was trading from last summer and was flaked as hell from all sides cause he will stay Leaf for lifetime ), where the trade looks like win on paper, Kadri for Kerfoot which is again slightly stepdown at first sight but kid is younger and can come like 1M cheaper ( also read kid is two-way efficient as Kadri was ) and 3y of Kadri + Rosen + 3rd for Barries rental also seems, well, with Kadri-has-to-go in my books its not that hard to swallow. Barrie again isnt upgrading but patching cause we just got another Gardiner with him, this time RHDed. Also he will command 8M at least next year, which i think isnt doable

So all in all, Zaitsev = Ceci ( slight loss but 1y vs 5y contract ), Kadri = Kerfoot ( slight loss short term tho kid can pan out better in few years ) and Barrie = Gardiner is just putting TML where they were in 2018/2019. Contenders but again without shutdown Ds in top Pairs ( which i think is a must, as i already said, i may be biased after 25 years between pipes, but i really never liked to be sitting duck and i think Andersen neither )

DEPTH 2 ( at FA )

4#C in Spezza for 700k, 27 Points Agostino for 700k, not sure about 4#C Shore ( pun intended ) but still ...nothing to add here......


KAPANEN

My take would be 2 x 2,7M cause 9 + "50" doesnt earn you nothing over 3M, but with recent trend Dubarelli is setting, maybe 1 x 2,9M for him, just to show we can overpay them all

League Comparables :
Bjorkstrand...8 + 13 + 40 got him 3 x 2,5M
Danault.........10 + 44 + 25 got him 3 x 3M ( arbitration )

JOHNSSON

Same as for Kapanen, tho hes one season of stats short, but lets say he gets the same

Comparables :
Arvidsson ( 7 x 4,250M on top of 16 + 61 , tho i think kid screwed himself a bit with term to long )
Danault 3 x 3M ( arbitration )

KERFOOT

When acquired i gave the kid 4 x 4M ( and 2 x 3,5M ) but they managed to sign him 4 x 3,5M....im going to sit in the corner

MARNER ( major fail )

Back in Summer 2018 mostly went with 7 x 8M cause 61 + 69 + "90" and taking "hometown discount" ( otherwise points-contribution would make him 8x8,5M max )

Comparables :
Kutcherov ( 3 x 4,7M on top of 66 + 65)
Panarin ( 2 x 6M on top of 77 + 74 )

Aaaaand he did it again........


KYLE DUBAS
GRADE YEAR : JUNIOR
FINAL GRADE : B+
MENTOR : CHIARELLI


About a 3.5 GPA. Grading was a very unfair with the muzzin trade. Barrie trade is probably A+ as well.
Chirreli is a D- GM, Mike Millbury, and Paul Fenton are Fs, so giving him a B+, is misproving your entire point
Sep 17 at 8:04
#3
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 2,605
Likes: 1,015
Edited Sep 17 at 3:39
Quoting: SpaghettiPasta
About a 3.5 GPA. Grading was a very unfair with the muzzin trade. Barrie trade is probably A+ as well.
Chirreli is a D- GM, Mike Millbury, and Paul Fenton are Fs, so giving him a B+, is misproving your entire point


and you needed to quote the whole wall for that ?

In your books with those gardes maybe....but as always.....100 ppl 100 natures is the saying in my country ( dont know if it translates properly into English ). Would be better if he would take Poile for a mentor and not the ones you flashlighted in trying to point out how great he has done......

EDITED : Johnsson, and Kapanen with A- cause he didnt exceled but was on the spot.

Barrie trade : seems like you are one of those whos reading it wrong, Barrie was brought in as rental ( cause Sakic didnt want go with 8M into his late thirties ) so basically trade is Barrie as rental for 6th and Rosen and whats left from overpayment in Kadri - Kerfoot swap. Anyone with common sense can see TML cant afford him next year also....
Sep 17 at 8:10
#4
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 9,133
Likes: 2,641
This is so bitter and negative. With the Legion of haters out there perhaps Leaf fans should leave it to them to be unreasonably negative.

I won't go into great detail but my thoughts are.

1) Chiarelli started the new market with his McDavid and Draisaitl contracts, Dubas had to give his young guys big contracts. Matthews being a generational talent was going to cost more than McDavid on a 8 year deal and TO couldn't afford to pay that so the term was less. The fact he got his contract 2 years after McDavid meant a higher cap and higher cap hit. It's just business. Also Matthews will never be a bad contract. He'll earn every penny, he's the best player on the team and the best goal scorer in the game currently at 5v5.

2) Nylander's deal will look fantastics in 2 months from now and you and everyone else that chirps him will have to eat some words.

3) Muzzin is better than Manson or Pesce who are both very much overrated. Good player but at best 3rd best on their respective teams and either would be #4 in TO. A fan judging Dubas for not making the trade you would have made is about as empty a statement as one can make. There is a reason he is a GM and you are whatever it is you do.

4) the other trades and signings have been fine to outstanding. The Kadri trade was awesome, the depth vets for league mins is something no one else is doing so give Dubas credit.

5) While I agree that Marner could be lower it's not the end of the world and not even a problem, he'll score points and is a terrific player. Increases the shooting percentage of everyone he plays with (apart from Matthews, which is weird but doesn't matter Nylander has that job anyways) TSN just did a story on that.

So in closing, maybe try to see a bit of positivity in the world. There is enough doom and gloom.
junoandkeisha liked this.
Sep 17 at 11:30
#5
Isles777
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 439
Quoting: LoganOllivier
This is so bitter and negative. With the Legion of haters out there perhaps Leaf fans should leave it to them to be unreasonably negative.

I won't go into great detail but my thoughts are.

1) Chiarelli started the new market with his McDavid and Draisaitl contracts, Dubas had to give his young guys big contracts. Matthews being a generational talent was going to cost more than McDavid on a 8 year deal and TO couldn't afford to pay that so the term was less. The fact he got his contract 2 years after McDavid meant a higher cap and higher cap hit. It's just business. Also Matthews will never be a bad contract. He'll earn every penny, he's the best player on the team and the best goal scorer in the game currently at 5v5.

2) Nylander's deal will look fantastics in 2 months from now and you and everyone else that chirps him will have to eat some words.

3) Muzzin is better than Manson or Pesce who are both very much overrated. Good player but at best 3rd best on their respective teams and either would be #4 in TO. A fan judging Dubas for not making the trade you would have made is about as empty a statement as one can make. There is a reason he is a GM and you are whatever it is you do.

4) the other trades and signings have been fine to outstanding. The Kadri trade was awesome, the depth vets for league mins is something no one else is doing so give Dubas credit.

5) While I agree that Marner could be lower it's not the end of the world and not even a problem, he'll score points and is a terrific player. Increases the shooting percentage of everyone he plays with (apart from Matthews, which is weird but doesn't matter Nylander has that job anyways) TSN just did a story on that.

So in closing, maybe try to see a bit of positivity in the world. There is enough doom and gloom.


Muzzin is slightly better than Manson but pesce?? It’s not even close - go look at their advanced statistics and you’ll see who’s been better the last two seasons.
Sep 17 at 11:35
#6
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 9,133
Likes: 2,641
Quoting: Isles777
Muzzin is slightly better than Manson but pesce?? It’s not even close - go look at their advanced statistics and you’ll see who’s been better the last two seasons.


Pesce is overrated. He didn't play against top competition last year, doesn't score much, and plays on one of the deepest bluelines in the league. On his own, I bet he'd struggle to do much. Muzzin makes people better, has his whole career and made Zaitsev look half decent in the playoffs. Pesce away from guys like Slavin, Hamilton, De Haan and Faulk and I doubt he'd be as impressive.
Sep 17 at 11:50
#7
Isles777
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 439
Quoting: LoganOllivier
Pesce is overrated. He didn't play against top competition last year, doesn't score much, and plays on one of the deepest bluelines in the league. On his own, I bet he'd struggle to do much. Muzzin makes people better, has his whole career and made Zaitsev look half decent in the playoffs. Pesce away from guys like Slavin, Hamilton, De Haan and Faulk and I doubt he'd be as impressive.


Your opinion seems subjective - as it stands right now, pesce is significantly better defensively than muzzin and there’s no argument just go look at the stats. Muzzin had 37 points last season and pesce was on pace for 32. Not much of a difference - not sure where you get “overrated “ from because it’s just not true.
Sep 17 at 12:04
#8
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 9,133
Likes: 2,641
Quoting: Isles777
Your opinion seems subjective - as it stands right now, pesce is significantly better defensively than muzzin and there’s no argument just go look at the stats. Muzzin had 37 points last season and pesce was on pace for 32. Not much of a difference - not sure where you get “overrated “ from because it’s just not true.


Pesce has had the good fortune of having great partners for much of his career. Slavin is an absolute stud. These secondary guys that get so much love are so overrated. Pesce is this era's Mike Komisarek. With a good partner, he is this stalwart defensive defenseman who has all these pretty advance stats but how does he fair away from good partners and in systems different than what he has in Carolina? No one knows but I doubt he's half as good with an average partner. Muzzin has been extremely good at both ends of the ice for his whole career but was always overshadowed by Doughty. I am not at all a fan of Pesce or Manson, both are completely overrated because they have played with better players their whole NHL careers.

Its the opposite of why people undervalue Rielly, who has never had a good partner, ever. Still he's been a positive possession player and an elite #1 despite carrying around Hainsey for the past 2 seasons. Pesce has never had to carry anything, just come in and do his job while better players do the special things that make them elite.
Sep 17 at 12:14
#9
Isles777
Joined: Jun 2019
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Pesce has had the good fortune of having great partners for much of his career. Slavin is an absolute stud. These secondary guys that get so much love are so overrated. Pesce is this era's Mike Komisarek. With a good partner, he is this stalwart defensive defenseman who has all these pretty advance stats but how does he fair away from good partners and in systems different than what he has in Carolina? No one knows but I doubt he's half as good with an average partner. Muzzin has been extremely good at both ends of the ice for his whole career but was always overshadowed by Doughty. I am not at all a fan of Pesce or Manson, both are completely overrated because they have played with better players their whole NHL careers.

Its the opposite of why people undervalue Rielly, who has never had a good partner, ever. Still he's been a positive possession player and an elite #1 despite carrying around Hainsey for the past 2 seasons. Pesce has never had to carry anything, just come in and do his job while better players do the special things that make them elite.


your undervaluing of pesce is hilarious and based on not playing with terrible defenseman. By the way , Faulk actually had a down year and didn’t drive play much, so that puts your argument that he carried pesce to bed.

Pesce was arguably the canes 2nd best defenseman in the playoffs
Sep 17 at 12:38
#10
Joined: May 2018
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Quoting: Isles777
your undervaluing of pesce is hilarious and based on not playing with terrible defenseman. By the way , Faulk actually had a down year and didn’t drive play much, so that puts your argument that he carried pesce to bed.

Pesce was arguably the canes 2nd best defenseman in the playoffs


Great they can keep him, I don't care about Pesce, nor do I want him. He's a good player but he isn't some future Norris winner and elite defenceman. He's probably 4th best on his current team.
Sep 17 at 2:23
#11
Isles777
Joined: Jun 2019
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Great they can keep him, I don't care about Pesce, nor do I want him. He's a good player but he isn't some future Norris winner and elite defenceman. He's probably 4th best on his current team.


You don’t have to want him, but he’s better than muzzin and that’s a fact.
Sep 17 at 2:54
#12
Joined: May 2018
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Quoting: Isles777
You don’t have to want him, but he’s better than muzzin and that’s a fact.


It is not. Muzzin is a legit top pair defenceman, and has been for years. Pesce just today's IT girl. He's nothing special. Same with Manson, overrated because they shoot right and someone said that that means something and now its blown way out of proportion. Look at the pay scale of players, guys like him are worth 4 million. Guys that can do special things are worth much more. Pesce doesn't do anything special. He's solid but thats it.
Sep 17 at 3:10
#13
Isles777
Joined: Jun 2019
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
It is not. Muzzin is a legit top pair defenceman, and has been for years. Pesce just today's IT girl. He's nothing special. Same with Manson, overrated because they shoot right and someone said that that means something and now its blown way out of proportion. Look at the pay scale of players, guys like him are worth 4 million. Guys that can do special things are worth much more. Pesce doesn't do anything special. He's solid but thats it.


Top wins above replacement (past 3 seasons) defenseman

1. Victor Hedman 9.7
2. Mark giordano 8.1
3. Brett pesce 7.5

That’s some elite company 🤔
Sep 17 at 3:15
#14
Joined: May 2018
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Quoting: Isles777
Top wins above replacement (past 3 seasons) defenseman

1. Victor Hedman 9.7
2. Mark giordano 8.1
3. Brett pesce 7.5

That’s some elite company 🤔


So here is my issue with advance stats, they are now being used to blanket players without context. Pesce didn't play against top competition last year. That was Slavin's job, who is also the true #1 defenceman in Carolina. Hamilton for all his faults is also more valuable than Pesce. Even Faulk likely does more to help a team than Pesce who's best skill is shot depression which is more of a system thing than a singular player stat.

No one will ever convince me that Pesce is the god this site makes him out to be. He's good but he is not great, he isn't going to win a norris and his value isn't a kings ransom.
Sep 17 at 11:36
#15
Isles777
Joined: Jun 2019
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
So here is my issue with advance stats, they are now being used to blanket players without context. Pesce didn't play against top competition last year. That was Slavin's job, who is also the true #1 defenceman in Carolina. Hamilton for all his faults is also more valuable than Pesce. Even Faulk likely does more to help a team than Pesce who's best skill is shot depression which is more of a system thing than a singular player stat.

No one will ever convince me that Pesce is the god this site makes him out to be. He's good but he is not great, he isn't going to win a norris and his value isn't a kings ransom.


Context does matter - Slavin is the #1, but pesce is the 2nd best defenseman on the canes. There’s a reason he was moved to the 2nd pairing this past season, he’s the only RD on the canes that can play his offside and be just as effective.

Slavin was more effective playing with pesce than Hamilton and Faulk excelled with pesce as his partner over de haan. He won’t win a Norris because he doesn’t put up enough points, but he’s one of the better shutdown defenseman in the league whether you like it or not.
Sep 18 at 2:23
#16
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2018
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Edited Sep 18 at 2:28
Quoting: LoganOllivier
This is so bitter and negative. With the Legion of haters out there perhaps Leaf fans should leave it to them to be unreasonably negative.

I won't go into great detail but my thoughts are.

1) Chiarelli started the new market with his McDavid and Draisaitl contracts, Dubas had to give his young guys big contracts. Matthews being a generational talent was going to cost more than McDavid on a 8 year deal and TO couldn't afford to pay that so the term was less. The fact he got his contract 2 years after McDavid meant a higher cap and higher cap hit. It's just business. Also Matthews will never be a bad contract. He'll earn every penny, he's the best player on the team and the best goal scorer in the game currently at 5v5.

2) Nylander's deal will look fantastics in 2 months from now and you and everyone else that chirps him will have to eat some words.

3) Muzzin is better than Manson or Pesce who are both very much overrated. Good player but at best 3rd best on their respective teams and either would be #4 in TO. A fan judging Dubas for not making the trade you would have made is about as empty a statement as one can make. There is a reason he is a GM and you are whatever it is you do.

4) the other trades and signings have been fine to outstanding. The Kadri trade was awesome, the depth vets for league mins is something no one else is doing so give Dubas credit.

5) While I agree that Marner could be lower it's not the end of the world and not even a problem, he'll score points and is a terrific player. Increases the shooting percentage of everyone he plays with (apart from Matthews, which is weird but doesn't matter Nylander has that job anyways) TSN just did a story on that.

So in closing, maybe try to see a bit of positivity in the world. There is enough doom and gloom.


Im glad that you are super happy this year again about the "improvements" in Team quality and the non-existent overpayment in 2M + 2M for Matthews and Marner ( or 2y in Term ), the only difference i see is 21M deficit for the same production on short term run and no money nor prospects left to land #1-2D next Offseason. But hey-....as long as Matthews will net 120 Points ....everything will be rainbowish.....#Lindros
Sep 18 at 2:33
#17
best poster
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mad online about maple leafs
Sep 18 at 4:24
#18
Joined: May 2018
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Quoting: Laudan
Im glad that you are super happy this year again about the "improvements" in Team quality and the non-existent overpayment in 2M + 2M for Matthews and Marner ( or 2y in Term ), the only difference i see is 21M deficit for the same production on short term run and no money nor prospects left to land #1-2D next Offseason. But hey-....as long as Matthews will net 120 Points ....everything will be rainbowish.....#Lindros


Keep preparing for the sky to fall, I don't care to engage this anymore.
 
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