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After Hyman and Dermott are healthy

Created by: SammyT_51
Team: 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Sep. 29, 2019
Published: Sep. 29, 2019
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And Leafs can easily trade Ceci and clear 4.5m under cap which is not necessary.
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Sep. 29, 2019 at 9:38 a.m.
#1
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Traded easily? If he playing well, then he may not want to trade him. Playing poorly it's a tough trade. Trading a 4.5m player without taking money back (which is the purpose of the Ceci trade) just might be the most difficult part.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 9:58 a.m.
#2
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Quoting: palhal
Traded easily? If he playing well, then he may not want to trade him. Playing poorly it's a tough trade. Trading a 4.5m player without taking money back (which is the purpose of the Ceci trade) just might be the most difficult part.


His real dollars are low, he is a serviceable Defense man so a team that isn’t tight on the cap might actually give up an asset to get an ok damn who doesn’t cost much regardless of the 1 year caphit, and they won’t be strong armed into overpaying like with Marleau because they don’t absolutely have to move him, just would be nice
Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:11 a.m.
#3
14m in dead cap
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Quoting: Hackadart
His real dollars are low, he is a serviceable Defense man so a team that isn’t tight on the cap might actually give up an asset to get an ok damn who doesn’t cost much regardless of the 1 year caphit, and they won’t be strong armed into overpaying like with Marleau because they don’t absolutely have to move him, just would be nice


His real dollar cost is the same as his cap hit, unless this website is wrong. He didn't get a signing bonus, which tbh I would have expected since Toronto signed him after the trade and could have done to make him easily tradeable.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:12 a.m.
#4
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Quoting: palhal
Traded easily? If he playing well, then he may not want to trade him. Playing poorly it's a tough trade. Trading a 4.5m player without taking money back (which is the purpose of the Ceci trade) just might be the most difficult part.


No worries man, just an easy cap dump. Next Dubas will be trading picks for Gaboriks LTIR contract lol
Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:15 a.m.
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Ceci is fine but what does he do that Holl can't and is it worth 3.8M?
Same question for Hyman. Looking at Moore and Mikheyev for example, there is 1.3-1.5M to be saved there as well as possibly acquiring some half decent picks in the process.
Not to mention Petan, or Kapanen for that matter.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:27 a.m.
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Quoting: JayTea
His real dollar cost is the same as his cap hit, unless this website is wrong. He didn't get a signing bonus, which tbh I would have expected since Toronto signed him after the trade and could have done to make him easily tradeable.

Nvm ur right, Idk why I thought he had like a $3M signing bonus, so that will make him more difficult to trade, but even still GMs must see some value in him if both Dorion and Dubas didn’t let him walk, not like this is a contract that used to be good and turned bad, two nhl GMs honestly thought it was worth signing him so I gotta assume other GMs might feel the same even if most fans dont
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Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:34 a.m.
#7
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Quoting: Hackadart
Nvm ur right, Idk why I thought he had like a $3M signing bonus, so that will make him more difficult to trade, but even still GMs must see some value in him if both Dorion and Dubas didn’t let him walk, not like this is a contract that used to be good and turned bad, two nhl GMs honestly thought it was worth signing him so I gotta assume other GMs might feel the same even if most fans dont


The issue becomes what @palhal said. If he's good, the Leafs can't really trade him because they need him and if he's bad, he's an anchor that will cost the Leafs to be rid of even if he's on an expiring deal simply because of leverage. I doubt very much so that he'd cost what Marleau did to unload and likely would just end up being a cap dump as part of a larger trade to bring in an upgrade from a non-playoff team who could actually use a bad defenseman to improve their lottery odds. It'll be interesting to see. I'm honestly shocked you weren't right in him being cheap to unload though, seems like giving him a big signing bonus that would make him appealing to a budget team would have made sense but I'm sure there's a reason they didn't.
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Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:45 a.m.
#8
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Quoting: JayTea
The issue becomes what @palhal said. If he's good, the Leafs can't really trade him because they need him and if he's bad, he's an anchor that will cost the Leafs to be rid of even if he's on an expiring deal simply because of leverage. I doubt very much so that he'd cost what Marleau did to unload and likely would just end up being a cap dump as part of a larger trade to bring in an upgrade from a non-playoff team who could actually use a bad defenseman to improve their lottery odds. It'll be interesting to see. I'm honestly shocked you weren't right in him being cheap to unload though, seems like giving him a big signing bonus that would make him appealing to a budget team would have made sense but I'm sure there's a reason they didn't.


Actually just for on ice necessity, Ceci was needed. Leaf weren't taking a chance that Schmaltz or Holl were going to be regulars going into training cap. IMO Ceci will be just fine, a change to good team and defence partners will up his game.
Ceci's contract. Ottawa had offered Ceci a contract so the Leaf were obligated to trade for him with a contract in place.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 11:11 a.m.
#9
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Quoting: palhal
Actually just for on ice necessity, Ceci was needed. Leaf weren't taking a chance that Schmaltz or Holl were going to be regulars going into training cap. IMO Ceci will be just fine, a change to good team and defence partners will up his game.
Ceci's contract. Ottawa had offered Ceci a contract so the Leaf were obligated to trade for him with a contract in place.


I figured they could have made it a bonus laden contract because the QO Ottawa tendered him was for $4.3m and he signed for $4.5m.
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Sep. 29, 2019 at 11:35 a.m.
#10
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Quoting: Goulet
Ceci is fine but what does he do that Holl can't and is it worth 3.8M?
Same question for Hyman. Looking at Moore and Mikheyev for example, there is 1.3-1.5M to be saved there as well as possibly acquiring some half decent picks in the process.
Not to mention Petan, or Kapanen for that matter.


Hyman forechecks better than all of those guys and he's bigger. Mikheyev looks pretty good and I like the Hustle from Moore but Hyman has done a great job all the time and has gotten better each year. The hate he gets because some simpletons want a flashier player is just mind blowing to me. Petan scored in the preseason let's put him on the top line because nothing that has happened matters and hope of an NHL20 on rookie mode will see all the Leafs score 30 goals. Even the guys who have never earned consistent playing time.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 12:06 p.m.
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Quoting: Goulet
Ceci is fine but what does he do that Holl can't and is it worth 3.8M?
Same question for Hyman. Looking at Moore and Mikheyev for example, there is 1.3-1.5M to be saved there as well as possibly acquiring some half decent picks in the process.
Not to mention Petan, or Kapanen for that matter.


Because Hyman instead of Moore, Ceci instead of Holl and Kappy instead of Petan is the difference between an good team and a great one, not to mention if those guys are so good we will need someone else good to take their spots or else we are downgrading in that way too, I get ur logic but it doesn’t follow, cause you keep up these minor downgrades and you’ll end up like the oilers with a great core of Mcdavid, Draisaitl and Nugenthopkins but junk playing beside them
Sep. 29, 2019 at 2:28 p.m.
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Hyman forechecks better than all of those guys and he's bigger. Mikheyev looks pretty good and I like the Hustle from Moore but Hyman has done a great job all the time and has gotten better each year. The hate he gets because some simpletons want a flashier player is just mind blowing to me. Petan scored in the preseason let's put him on the top line because nothing that has happened matters and hope of an NHL20 on rookie mode will see all the Leafs score 30 goals. Even the guys who have never earned consistent playing time.


Those simpletons see a depth player that forchecks in a first line role. It's not about flash, it's about skill, which Hyman lacks and the Leafs have in abundance.
Yes he is bigger than Moore and may forcheck better but he will be quickly forgotten when anyone of the other depth guys fill in and score at a higher clip.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 2:35 p.m.
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Quoting: Hackadart
Because Hyman instead of Moore, Ceci instead of Holl and Kappy instead of Petan is the difference between an good team and a great one, not to mention if those guys are so good we will need someone else good to take their spots or else we are downgrading in that way too, I get ur logic but it doesn’t follow, cause you keep up these minor downgrades and you’ll end up like the oilers with a great core of Mcdavid, Draisaitl and Nugenthopkins but junk playing beside them


I wasn't referring to trading Kapanen. He is currently in Hyman's old spot and may never leave it. If he or anyone else produces more than Hyman's half a point per game, they make him expendable just like Brown was. If anyone grabs the 1LW role that bumps Hyman down to 3LW and at that point cost really plays a factor.

As far as the D, I haven't watched Ceci and couldn't care less. If Sandin makes the team, Ceci is 5th on the depth chart and more expensive than all but Rielly. For this team to be objectively better than they are now they could use the Hyman/Ceci money to upgrade either players original spot in the lineup.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 4:51 p.m.
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Quoting: Goulet
Those simpletons see a depth player that forchecks in a first line role. It's not about flash, it's about skill, which Hyman lacks and the Leafs have in abundance.
Yes he is bigger than Moore and may forcheck better but he will be quickly forgotten when anyone of the other depth guys fill in and score at a higher clip.


Only by idiots. Hyman adds more than just points, his net front presence is an area the Leafs have the biggest trouble with. He has that and is big enough to do it. Right now, no one else has proven they can do half of what Hyman does.
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Sep. 29, 2019 at 8:09 p.m.
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Only by idiots. Hyman adds more than just points, his net front presence is an area the Leafs have the biggest trouble with. He has that and is big enough to do it. Right now, no one else has proven they can do half of what Hyman does.


You're right. The Leafs don't have a net front presence like Hyman. The rest of the team can do more than stand there distracting an opposing Dman hoping the puck hits them on the way in.
These lunch pail guys the fanbase idolizes are amusing to talk about but why? Dubas is getting rid of all Hymans and replacing them with guys with more than one tool.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:17 p.m.
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Quoting: Goulet
You're right. The Leafs don't have a net front presence like Hyman. The rest of the team can do more than stand there distracting an opposing Dman hoping the puck hits them on the way in.
These lunch pail guys the fanbase idolizes are amusing to talk about but why? Dubas is getting rid of all Hymans and replacing them with guys with more than one tool.


They are necessary pieces of a winning formula as long as they aren't overpaid and Hyman isn't. There is no one who can replace what he does internally yet. Maybe Korshkov or Mikheyev but they need to prove it first.
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Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:25 p.m.
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
They are necessary pieces of a winning formula as long as they aren't overpaid and Hyman isn't. There is no one who can replace what he does internally yet. Maybe Korshkov or Mikheyev but they need to prove it first.


There was a time when the Leafs had no options and he was one of Babcock's toys because of his work ethic. That time is over. Hyman may be the worst winger Tavares has ever played a season with and any Leafs player battling for the 4th line can do more than Hyman does.
Sep. 29, 2019 at 10:39 p.m.
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Quoting: Goulet
There was a time when the Leafs had no options and he was one of Babcock's toys because of his work ethic. That time is over. Hyman may be the worst winger Tavares has ever played a season with and any Leafs player battling for the 4th line can do more than Hyman does.


You should stick to video games.
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Sep. 30, 2019 at 1:38 a.m.
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Edited Sep. 30, 2019 at 1:50 a.m.
Quoting: LoganOllivier
They are necessary pieces of a winning formula as long as they aren't overpaid and Hyman isn't. There is no one who can replace what he does internally yet. Maybe Korshkov or Mikheyev but they need to prove it first.


You are on the spot here, but things will go different way from one and only reason ( to lazy to write again ) :

Quoting: Laudan
if you dig deeper, youll notice its the most obvious choice. Johnsson, Kerfoot and Kapanen were just signed. Kerfoot and Kapanen are reportedlly killing in camp with speed ( and thats not against Hainsey ), which is rare skill. On the other side, Hyman is 28, had ACL ( i had one, not an easy comeback with those ), hes entering last years contract after this shortened Season, and grit is easier to find then speed. With another 40 Poinst Season TML wont be able to give him 4x 4M ( guess why ) and with that in mind he was ment to hit the road anyway, it will just happen two years earlier. Im the guy with much of the Hymans mentality also, you go there and battle it till death, so i would really like to see him stay, but the truth is different. Dubarelli just kicked him and Brown out while caveing.

But then again, you have plethora of youngsters that can do his job like Moore, Engvall, Marchment, Korshkov, Mikheyev ( hopefully for 2 x 775k ), while for the speed the only name that comes up is Bracco ( and im still dreaming about Duszak and Hollowell to be transfered to the wing with size as their handicap for D )


When Hyman comes back, your max Roster is 21 men with 3k in the pot as OP just show.......

Is it doable ? Yes
Is it comfortable ? No
Sep. 30, 2019 at 9:13 a.m.
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
You should stick to video games.


You should pay attention to what the Leafs are actually doing and not what your beliefs are.
And who has time for video games?
Sep. 30, 2019 at 10:15 a.m.
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Quoting: Laudan
You are on the spot here, but things will go different way from one and only reason ( to lazy to write again ) :



When Hyman comes back, your max Roster is 21 men with 3k in the pot as OP just show.......

Is it doable ? Yes
Is it comfortable ? No


Anyone who uses Dubarelli in his statements is short sighted and old school and doesn't think long term. Is Nylander overpaid? I don't think so, he makes less than 7 million for the next 5 years and I believe he'll be a 80+ a year player. Is Matthews? No, he's a generational talent and one of the best centres in the game already, what's his ceiling? Likely less overall points than McDavid but since his team is way better than Edmonton, I'd wager he'll go down as the one with more sustained team success. To get Matthews to 8 years it would have cost a lot more 12.5 million a season, but it doesn't really matter. Matthews is going to be the best player on the ice most of the time, he'll earn his money. End of story, end of debate, every thing else on Matthews is just a stupid argument. Marner got too much but its still not a problem. He'll be above a point a game for his contract and he'll be an important part to the teams success. Those are the 3 big beefs people like you seem to have and its a stupid short sighted beef. I understand the idea that if you would have given these guys shorter deals like the rest of the RFA's took, you would be able to spend more somewhere else like keeping Gardiner but then what happens in 2-3 years when these other RFAs are up for their next contracts. What is Point going to command if he scores 100 points and 50 goals once in the next 3 years? He'll command an 8 year deal in the 13-14 million region. Same with Laine, or any of the others. But again most of that is moot, why? Because star players earn their keep. The single biggest problem in the cap era is overpaying depth guys for success that comes off the backs of others. Where Tampa is paying guys like Killorn and Palat 5 million for several years, TO is paying younger better players less money and have the flexibility to make moves to fix other issues. Like the trade of Kadri to Colorado. Things get tight next season? Trade Kapanen for a defensive upgrade. He's young, has a lot of potential, and will bring back a great return from teams that need speed and scoring help.

As for Hyman, and all your other thoughts on burying depth to make sure they don't score enough to get an extra million or two, that is literally the worst idea I have ever heard. Lets just go ahead and make our team worse so we can save some bucks here and there. There are no words to explain how bad that is.
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Sep. 30, 2019 at 10:28 a.m.
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Quoting: Goulet
You should pay attention to what the Leafs are actually doing and not what your beliefs are.
And who has time for video games?


Worst winger and was yet somehow 2/3rds of JT's line when he had his best single season in his career. Hyman isn't flashy, he doesn't have great hands, isn't the best stick handler, sure. But he's big, he battles in front creating space and havoc for the goalie to see through, he gets the puck back, plays great defence, hits people, draws penalties, those are the reasons why he is not replaceable currently on the team. Who else goes to the net? Tavares does, but he also does a million other things and you don't really want an elite centre taking abuse from defenceman in the grease all the time. Johnsson tries but he's also 5'10" and a 180 pounds. Kapanen doesn't have a net front presense, Mikheyev may be able to do some of that but he hasn't shown it yet. Korshkov could be a replacement, but he is still pretty raw. So until someone comes up and proves they can be sound defensively, forecheck better than most, be a net presence and kill penalties and on top of all that be a 20 goal scorer, Hyman is the best person for the JT line.
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Sep. 30, 2019 at 1:00 p.m.
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Worst winger and was yet somehow 2/3rds of JT's line when he had his best single season in his career. Hyman isn't flashy, he doesn't have great hands, isn't the best stick handler, sure. But he's big, he battles in front creating space and havoc for the goalie to see through, he gets the puck back, plays great defence, hits people, draws penalties, those are the reasons why he is not replaceable currently on the team. Who else goes to the net? Tavares does, but he also does a million other things and you don't really want an elite centre taking abuse from defenceman in the grease all the time. Johnsson tries but he's also 5'10" and a 180 pounds. Kapanen doesn't have a net front presense, Mikheyev may be able to do some of that but he hasn't shown it yet. Korshkov could be a replacement, but he is still pretty raw. So until someone comes up and proves they can be sound defensively, forecheck better than most, be a net presence and kill penalties and on top of all that be a 20 goal scorer, Hyman is the best person for the JT line.


You're the president of the Hyman fanclub. Got it.

Hyman himself is irrelevant but his salary is what actually matters. The team has to decide whether he is worth 3 replacement wingers or the cap headaches of running short bodies all season.
Given that the Leafs top 4 wingers are currently playing with their top 2 centers, and given Dubas' ability to upgrade via trade while also solving cap issues, the impending cap crunch may not be seen as a problem by the team but rather an opportunity.
Another team that shares your enthusiasm for Hyman's work away from the puck may have interest in a package that solves problems for both sides.
Sep. 30, 2019 at 1:14 p.m.
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Quoting: Goulet
You're the president of the Hyman fanclub. Got it.

Hyman himself is irrelevant but his salary is what actually matters. The team has to decide whether he is worth 3 replacement wingers or the cap headaches of running short bodies all season.
Given that the Leafs top 4 wingers are currently playing with their top 2 centers, and given Dubas' ability to upgrade via trade while also solving cap issues, the impending cap crunch may not be seen as a problem by the team but rather an opportunity.
Another team that shares your enthusiasm for Hyman's work away from the puck may have interest in a package that solves problems for both sides.


Or, they trade Kapanen if the cap issues are too insurmountable. He's easily the easiest to replace player on the team and could bring back a much nicer return while saving even more off the cap. For all the love Kapanen gets, he failed miserably in the second half of the season and was a complete non factor in the playoffs. In fact, the single greatest issue the Matthews line had in the playoffs was a total lack of rebound offense. Matthews would score or the other team would get the puck back. For a guy that shoots as well as Matthews, having someone who can get to the front, screen the goalie or get a rebound in is important. Do you know how much rebound offense the Matthews line was able to create in the playoffs last season? Zero. And I am not exaggerating.

Want to know what happens if you get rid of everyone with the will to take the abuse you get from going to the net? A bunch of perimeter players.
Sep. 30, 2019 at 2:01 p.m.
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Or, they trade Kapanen if the cap issues are too insurmountable. He's easily the easiest to replace player on the team and could bring back a much nicer return while saving even more off the cap. For all the love Kapanen gets, he failed miserably in the second half of the season and was a complete non factor in the playoffs. In fact, the single greatest issue the Matthews line had in the playoffs was a total lack of rebound offense. Matthews would score or the other team would get the puck back. For a guy that shoots as well as Matthews, having someone who can get to the front, screen the goalie or get a rebound in is important. Do you know how much rebound offense the Matthews line was able to create in the playoffs last season? Zero. And I am not exaggerating.

Want to know what happens if you get rid of everyone with the will to take the abuse you get from going to the net? A bunch of perimeter players.


Kapanen is possible but highly improbable considering the direction the team is going. He didn't fit well on Matthews line and it remains to be seen how well he does with Tavares.
The return would be better but given how the team walks from all their UFAs, it's hard to imagine trading the younger, better Kapanen over the older Hyman considering their contract situations.

It may very well be a perimeter game they're after and I'm not advocating for or against it. The roster hasn't fit together particularly well the last couple of years but it seems closer to optimal now.
 
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