Forums/Armchair-GM

Reunite Kane and Breadman

Created by: ChiHawk
Initial Creation Date: Oct 18, 2019
Published: Oct 18 at 10:02 am
Team: 2019-20 Chicago Blackhawks
Team Explanation
and let the kids play
Trades
CHI
  1. Kakko, Kaapo
  2. Kreider, Chris
NYR
  1. Kane, Patrick
CHI
  1. Kapanen, Kasperi ($500,000 retained)
TOR
  1. Gustafsson, Erik
  2. Perlini, Brendan
CHI
  1. 2020 2nd round pick (EDM)
EDM
  1. Kreider, Chris
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2020
CHI
EDM
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
2021
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
MTL
2022
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
CHI
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$72,845,961$0$10,207,500$8,654,039
Left WingCenterRight Wing
CHI
Kubalik, Dominik
$925,000
LW
RFA - 1
CHI
Toews, Jonathan
$10,500,000
C
NMC
UFA - 4
CHI
Saad, Brandon
$6,000,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
CHI
Nylander, Alexander
$863,333
RW, LW
RFA - 2
CHI
Dach, Kirby
$925,000
C
RFA - 3
NYR
Kakko, Kaapo
$925,000
RW
RFA - 3
CHI
DeBrincat, Alex
$778,333
LW, RW
RFA - 1
CHI
Strome, Dylan
$863,333
C
RFA - 1
TOR
Kapanen, Kasperi
$2,700,000
RW
RFA - 3
CHI
Caggiula, Drake
$1,500,000
LW, C, RW
RFA - 1
CHI
Kämpf, David
$1,000,000
C, RW
RFA - 2
CHI
Shaw, Andrew
$3,900,000
C, RW
UFA - 3
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
CHI
Keith, Duncan
$5,538,462
LD
NMC
UFA - 4
CHI
Murphy, Connor
$3,850,000
RD
UFA - 3
CHI
Crawford, Corey
$6,000,000
G
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
CHI
De Haan, Calvin
$4,550,000
LD
UFA - 3
CHI
Boqvist, Adam
$894,167
RD
RFA - 3
CHI
Lehner, Robin
$5,000,000
G
UFA - 1
CHI
Määttä, Olli
$4,083,333
LD
UFA - 3
CHI
Seabrook, Brent
$6,875,000
RD
NMC
UFA - 5
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
CHI
Smith, Zack
$3,250,000
LW, C
NTC
UFA - 2
CHI
Carpenter, Ryan
$1,000,000
RW, C
UFA - 3
CHI
Koekkoek, Slater
$925,000
LD
RFA - 1

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Oct 18 at 12:31
#26
exo2769
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,009
Likes: 1,235
Quoting: Caniac2000
pOiNtS... there's more to hockey than just points. Sid was alround the best player in the league last year by some margin, his RAPM literally shames anyone else in the league, and McDavid was number 2 by almost the same margin. Kuch I'm only counting as number 3 because it might get you to shut up, but realistically last year Couturier was better, MacKinnon, Point all were. 110 points is nice production, but there's a lot more than that to this game. Defensively he was horrific (when I say horrific, I mean for his standards at an elite level, don't get that wrong) He's imo, not a top 10 player in the league anymore. He's slowing down way too much. Oh and 110 points is a lot easier with a 40 goal scorer on the other wing


I enjoy conversing with you and this you bring up good points on most posts, but I think you dug yourself into a hole on this one. It's ok to take a Lose and move on. I've had losses before too.

I actually VERY much agree with you that points aren't everything and I'd be a COMPLETE hypocritic if I didn't agree because that's the exactly the argument I make when talking about Toews. Most Hawks fans do, to be honest. BUT that's where it ends because you say "slowing down" a bunch of times. When was speed in the top 5 of the attributes that got him to where he is today? It's not and never was part of his game. That's why he can and will continue. Kane's always been an above average skater, but it's not hard to be an above average skater. What get's him top 5 in the league today is his Hockey IQ, Vision, Ability to Pass, Ability to Shoot, and Stick Handling. The best out of all of those is Hockey IQ. (NOT Personal IQ. He's made plenty of poor decisions.) Those don't drop off at 30. you could make an argument that injuries might start popping up, but only a crystal ball will help predict that stuff. Young guys get hurt too. Getting older makes you smarter...well gaining wisdom...even more Hockey IQ. Getting Older helps someone understand what situation they're in because they've already been in that situation 1,000 times before. This is why he was and will continue to be among the best forwards in the league until he decides to retire. Not his speed.
Oct 18 at 12:55
#27
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,604
Likes: 746
Quoting: Caniac2000
Kane is slowing down, he had a resurgent year in a year where everyone was scoring more. Kane wasn't a top 3 player last year, be real man. Top 5 maybe, but Sid McDavid and Kuch were all better. Kakko has the upside to get there, there is literally 0 reason or sense to move him. NYR aren't gunning for the cup now. They're aiming down the road.

Kap is a speedy middle 6er with 20-40 upside, for a defenceman who struggles in his own end, is on a 1 year deal and adds to Muzzin Barrie Dermott Ceci Harpur Schmaltz and a load of others who would need to be resigned? That makes very little sense for Toronto.

Kreider with an extension is worth a 1st and a B prospect...


Eh nyr better be winning fairly soon. That panarin contract won't always look good
ChiHawk liked this.
Oct 18 at 12:59
#28
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,604
Likes: 746
Quoting: Caniac2000
Kakko is not gonna bust, coming out of the draft he was the most NHL ready guy in it


You can't say that. Sometimes busts are surprises. Until he produces for an extended period in the NHL it's potential. A **** ton of potential but just potential.
ChiHawk liked this.
Oct 18 at 1:11
#29
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,604
Likes: 746
Quoting: ChiHawk
Wrong...you're ignorant not to realize Kane is a top 3 forward. #3 in points, #5 in goals, #6 in assists. No other player in the league ranked collectively that high in all categories. For comparison, Kuch was #11 in goals, McDavid #10 in goals, Crosby #24 in goals and Crosby #7...but you think Crosby was better? LMAO

Sure KK has a lot of upside, but to think he's going to be as good as Kane is a fool's errand. KK or Hughes weren't nearly as hyped as Kane in his draft year. Very few players are, McDavid being another one.

Toronto's right side is hurting and offers very little offensive upside. Gus would definitely add to the type of game Toronto plays. Perlini has upside for sure, he's just not a fit for the Hawks after getting Nylander as another project.

No extension was included in the Kreider trade hence why I conservatively traded him for a 2nd rounder.


I think you're overstating Kane a tad to say he is a definite top 3 forward. I don't think anyone would argue McDavid was ahead of him las year, nor Kucherov. I gotta think most would put McKinnon ahead.

Personally I'd still put Crosby (I know less offense but more impact on the rest of the game) and Bergeron (the impact he has defensively for a forward is unparalleled in this generation). He may be next though. So 6th?
exo2769 liked this.
Oct 18 at 1:26
#30
exo2769
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,009
Likes: 1,235
Edited Oct 18 at 2:11
Quoting: BCAPP
I think you're overstating Kane a tad to say he is a definite top 3 forward. I don't think anyone would argue McDavid was ahead of him las year, nor Kucherov. I gotta think most would put McKinnon ahead.

Personally I'd still put Crosby (I know less offense but more impact on the rest of the game) and Bergeron (the impact he has defensively for a forward is unparalleled in this generation). He may be next though. So 6th?


This is truly where things get interesting though. I personally don't think Kuch and Kane are far apart at all. Kuch got to play with Stamkos and Point. Kane got to play with Toews and Drake Cagguila. I personally think Toews is an amazing player, but Hawk haters think he sucks. So who did Kane get to play with exactly? Then Berg is also a great question. How do you compare Defense to Offense. NHL.com has Berg as the 7th best ...center...but I also think they're too points driven.

***EDIT*** everyone knows who I'm talking about when I say Kuch or Berg in a split second. We need to spell out Drake Cagguila first and last names in full WITH spell check because even I a Hawks fan wrote Caggulia when 1st typing this.
ChiHawk liked this.
Oct 18 at 2:24
#31
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 6,210
Likes: 1,297
Quoting: BCAPP
I think you're overstating Kane a tad to say he is a definite top 3 forward. I don't think anyone would argue McDavid was ahead of him las year, nor Kucherov. I gotta think most would put McKinnon ahead.

Personally I'd still put Crosby (I know less offense but more impact on the rest of the game) and Bergeron (the impact he has defensively for a forward is unparalleled in this generation). He may be next though. So 6th?


I don't know about Kuch being definitely ahead of Kane. Kuch had much better line around him then Kane. Can Kuch play on a line with Toews and a rotating cast member on the LW, mostly Caggs, and put up those numbers? I think that's a big question mark. Put another way, Kane created much of Toews's resurgence last year (1st time they played together in years) much moreso then Toews helped Kane. McDavid is hands down the #1, but after that, one can make a case for Kane. Needless to say, he's easily in the top 5 forwards and top 3 wingers in the game, anyone that would argue that doesn't understand the roles of a winger versus center. He's also easily one of the most dynamic players in the game. The analysts agreed why anyone could easily have awarded the Hart trophy to Kane...simply because he didn't play with Point or Stamkos.

Regarding Crosby, I don't disagree that his game can not be valued purely on points nor should it. Bergeon also. However for wingers, its much easier to value their play on goals and points. Therein lies the debate. I then look at who changes the game single handidly the most for their respective teams which is why McDavid is #1 without question. Kane single handidly won a lot of games for the Hawks especially last year...very few players can alone change the outcome of a game for a team. There are really no stats other then an eye test to see that and anyone who watched Kane last year wouldn't argue for a minute they did that.

For that reason, Kane has more value then Kapo which is why the inclusion of Krieder as a rental is a balanced trade. Now whether that is a fit for the NYR is open for debate IMO but also IMO anyone who would think Kaapo has more value 1:1 for then Kane is a silly argument given Kane's performance last year and Kaapo being an unknown entity.
Oct 18 at 2:25
#32
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 6,210
Likes: 1,297
Quoting: BCAPP
For the record perlini has minimal value despite the former 12th oa part. Gus is the main part of the return


Perlini being worth a 3rd rounder or at worst 4th rounder. I look at it as Gus being worth a 1st and Perlini a 3rd. Does a 1st and 3rd get Kap? Every day of the week IMO.
Oct 18 at 3:43
#33
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,604
Likes: 746
Quoting: ChiHawk
I don't know about Kuch being definitely ahead of Kane. Kuch had much better line around him then Kane. Can Kuch play on a line with Toews and a rotating cast member on the LW, mostly Caggs, and put up those numbers? I think that's a big question mark. Put another way, Kane created much of Toews's resurgence last year (1st time they played together in years) much moreso then Toews helped Kane. McDavid is hands down the #1, but after that, one can make a case for Kane. Needless to say, he's easily in the top 5 forwards and top 3 wingers in the game, anyone that would argue that doesn't understand the roles of a winger versus center. He's also easily one of the most dynamic players in the game. The analysts agreed why anyone could easily have awarded the Hart trophy to Kane...simply because he didn't play with Point or Stamkos.

Regarding Crosby, I don't disagree that his game can not be valued purely on points nor should it. Bergeon also. However for wingers, its much easier to value their play on goals and points. Therein lies the debate. I then look at who changes the game single handidly the most for their respective teams which is why McDavid is #1 without question. Kane single handidly won a lot of games for the Hawks especially last year...very few players can alone change the outcome of a game for a team. There are really no stats other then an eye test to see that and anyone who watched Kane last year wouldn't argue for a minute they did that.

For that reason, Kane has more value then Kapo which is why the inclusion of Krieder as a rental is a balanced trade. Now whether that is a fit for the NYR is open for debate IMO but also IMO anyone who would think Kaapo has more value 1:1 for then Kane is a silly argument given Kane's performance last year and Kaapo being an unknown entity.


A lot (okay a dozen or two, but still a fair number) of players can win a game. I suspect you mostly watch Hawks games. When Kessel was on the Leafs there would be a good 5-10 games per year he won for the team. He was never ahead of maybe top 15.

Kane is just a tad one dimensional IMHO to be quite at the top. While wingers aren't expected to be as defensively responsible it doesn't change the fact that someone being defensively reaponsible adds value.

In the end he is probably top 4 in offensive potential in the league with Kuch and McDavid and McKinnon and I suspect Crosby if he focussed more on offense (but he may be past that point in his career). But the fact that he isn't near the top 30 for defensive or play without the puck just pulls him down a little.

Either way he's a franchise player.

I do wonder how much longer he'll be in that top 5, and when Matthews, Laine (I believe last year was a blip), maybe Eichel, Hughes, Peterson (and who knows, maybe Kappo) knock him off.

It'll happen eventually, impossible to know when in advance
Oct 18 at 4:28
#34
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,604
Likes: 746
Quoting: ChiHawk
Perlini being worth a 3rd rounder or at worst 4th rounder. I look at it as Gus being worth a 1st and Perlini a 3rd. Does a 1st and 3rd get Kap? Every day of the week IMO.


Eh. So in regards to pure value Kapanen is worth a mid first and a 3rd. I'd accept that. I wouldn't take a late first and third for him.

But three things

1) When talking about a first, adding a third or fourth has a pretty small impact which is what I was saying above

2) just because something is the right value in isolation, it doesn't necessarily make sense for the team in their scenario. I probably wouldn't actually trade Kap for the picks, as we're trying to win now. If be more likely to trade for Gus with an extension, but I really don't know much about him

3) the Leafs really really really shouldn't be retaining on anyone. They just can't afford to do so. Whatever benefit it offers they're trading partners the cost is probably WAY higher to the Leafs. We need every Cap dollar we can get
 
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