I enjoy conversing with you and this you bring up good points on most posts, but I think you dug yourself into a hole on this one. It's ok to take a Lose and move on. I've had losses before too.

I actually VERY much agree with you that points aren't everything and I'd be a COMPLETE hypocritic if I didn't agree because that's the exactly the argument I make when talking about Toews. Most Hawks fans do, to be honest. BUT that's where it ends because you say "slowing down" a bunch of times. When was speed in the top 5 of the attributes that got him to where he is today? It's not and never was part of his game. That's why he can and will continue. Kane's always been an above average skater, but it's not hard to be an above average skater. What get's him top 5 in the league today is his Hockey IQ, Vision, Ability to Pass, Ability to Shoot, and Stick Handling. The best out of all of those is Hockey IQ. (NOT Personal IQ. He's made plenty of poor decisions.) Those don't drop off at 30. you could make an argument that injuries might start popping up, but only a crystal ball will help predict that stuff. Young guys get hurt too. Getting older makes you smarter...well gaining wisdom...even more Hockey IQ. Getting Older helps someone understand what situation they're in because they've already been in that situation 1,000 times before. This is why he was and will continue to be among the best forwards in the league until he decides to retire. Not his speed.

Eh nyr better be winning fairly soon. That panarin contract won't always look good

You can't say that. Sometimes busts are surprises. Until he produces for an extended period in the NHL it's potential. A **** ton of potential but just potential.

I think you're overstating Kane a tad to say he is a definite top 3 forward. I don't think anyone would argue McDavid was ahead of him las year, nor Kucherov. I gotta think most would put McKinnon ahead.

Personally I'd still put Crosby (I know less offense but more impact on the rest of the game) and Bergeron (the impact he has defensively for a forward is unparalleled in this generation). He may be next though. So 6th?

This is truly where things get interesting though. I personally don't think Kuch and Kane are far apart at all. Kuch got to play with Stamkos and Point. Kane got to play with Toews and Drake Cagguila. I personally think Toews is an amazing player, but Hawk haters think he sucks. So who did Kane get to play with exactly? Then Berg is also a great question. How do you compare Defense to Offense. NHL.com has Berg as the 7th best ...center...but I also think they're too points driven.

***EDIT*** everyone knows who I'm talking about when I say Kuch or Berg in a split second. We need to spell out Drake Cagguila first and last names in full WITH spell check because even I a Hawks fan wrote Caggulia when 1st typing this.

I don't know about Kuch being definitely ahead of Kane. Kuch had much better line around him then Kane. Can Kuch play on a line with Toews and a rotating cast member on the LW, mostly Caggs, and put up those numbers? I think that's a big question mark. Put another way, Kane created much of Toews's resurgence last year (1st time they played together in years) much moreso then Toews helped Kane. McDavid is hands down the #1, but after that, one can make a case for Kane. Needless to say, he's easily in the top 5 forwards and top 3 wingers in the game, anyone that would argue that doesn't understand the roles of a winger versus center. He's also easily one of the most dynamic players in the game. The analysts agreed why anyone could easily have awarded the Hart trophy to Kane...simply because he didn't play with Point or Stamkos.

Regarding Crosby, I don't disagree that his game can not be valued purely on points nor should it. Bergeon also. However for wingers, its much easier to value their play on goals and points. Therein lies the debate. I then look at who changes the game single handidly the most for their respective teams which is why McDavid is #1 without question. Kane single handidly won a lot of games for the Hawks especially last year...very few players can alone change the outcome of a game for a team. There are really no stats other then an eye test to see that and anyone who watched Kane last year wouldn't argue for a minute they did that.

For that reason, Kane has more value then Kapo which is why the inclusion of Krieder as a rental is a balanced trade. Now whether that is a fit for the NYR is open for debate IMO but also IMO anyone who would think Kaapo has more value 1:1 for then Kane is a silly argument given Kane's performance last year and Kaapo being an unknown entity.

Perlini being worth a 3rd rounder or at worst 4th rounder. I look at it as Gus being worth a 1st and Perlini a 3rd. Does a 1st and 3rd get Kap? Every day of the week IMO.

A lot (okay a dozen or two, but still a fair number) of players can win a game. I suspect you mostly watch Hawks games. When Kessel was on the Leafs there would be a good 5-10 games per year he won for the team. He was never ahead of maybe top 15.

Kane is just a tad one dimensional IMHO to be quite at the top. While wingers aren't expected to be as defensively responsible it doesn't change the fact that someone being defensively reaponsible adds value.

In the end he is probably top 4 in offensive potential in the league with Kuch and McDavid and McKinnon and I suspect Crosby if he focussed more on offense (but he may be past that point in his career). But the fact that he isn't near the top 30 for defensive or play without the puck just pulls him down a little.

Either way he's a franchise player.

I do wonder how much longer he'll be in that top 5, and when Matthews, Laine (I believe last year was a blip), maybe Eichel, Hughes, Peterson (and who knows, maybe Kappo) knock him off.

It'll happen eventually, impossible to know when in advance

Eh. So in regards to pure value Kapanen is worth a mid first and a 3rd. I'd accept that. I wouldn't take a late first and third for him.

But three things

1) When talking about a first, adding a third or fourth has a pretty small impact which is what I was saying above

2) just because something is the right value in isolation, it doesn't necessarily make sense for the team in their scenario. I probably wouldn't actually trade Kap for the picks, as we're trying to win now. If be more likely to trade for Gus with an extension, but I really don't know much about him

3) the Leafs really really really shouldn't be retaining on anyone. They just can't afford to do so. Whatever benefit it offers they're trading partners the cost is probably WAY higher to the Leafs. We need every Cap dollar we can get