SalarySwishSalarySwish
Forums/NHL

Drew Doughty

Oct. 22, 2019 at 10:00 a.m.
#1
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2017
Posts: 173
Likes: 16
I heard them talking about the Drew Doughty-Matthew Tkachuk beef on Tim and Sid, where they really started talking up Drew Doughty. They started listing off the accomplishments, the Olympic Gold Medals (would have been hard not to win with those team Canada's), Stanley Cups (there were 22 other players on each of those teams) and the Norris Trophy (which is generally accepted as the classic "legacy" award, in that people thought "hey, Drew Doughty doesn't have one yet", and which he won while being tied for 9th in points, tied for 11th in goals, but did finish 3rd in point shares, all according to hockey-reference.com). They continued on to call Doughty a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer. They call him one of if not the best defenseman of his generation, even though he's never been the best in any one calendar year (his Norris Trophy year included).

I'm wondering what other people think about him. Is he a generational talent defenseman that is a first ballot HOF-er, or is he a really good defenseman that played on some really good teams?
Oct. 22, 2019 at 11:01 a.m.
#2
Below Market Value
Avatar of the user
Joined: Nov. 2015
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 1,324
Definitely not generational. The closest thing to a generational defenseman we've had in recent years is Erik Karlsson, and even that is debatable. He was a legit #1 defenseman on some excellent Kings teams. You could also argue that he was propped up by Darryl Sutter's system, which I do think is true to some degree since he hasn't looked as good the last couple seasons, but I'm sure there's an age-related decline in there too. Little bit of both for sure.

As far as HOF goes, he is the classic good ol' Ontario, Canada boy so if he doesn't completely fall off a cliff over the rest of his career he'll likely get in quickly due to his Cups, Norris, and Olympic medals.
Kotkaniemi15 and OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 22, 2019 at 11:59 a.m.
#3
Former Hockey Fan
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2017
Posts: 13,144
Likes: 10,516
I’d say he used to be a decent #1 defenseman on a good team and is now a fringe #1 defenseman. He didn’t deserve the Norris, and IMO, should never be a hall of famer. But he will end up in the HHoF because of his team success.
BuFfaLOFaN liked this.
Oct. 22, 2019 at 2:34 p.m.
#4
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2016
Posts: 2,079
Likes: 433
Quoting: Caletti12
I heard them talking about the Drew Doughty-Matthew Tkachuk beef on Tim and Sid, where they really started talking up Drew Doughty. They started listing off the accomplishments, the Olympic Gold Medals (would have been hard not to win with those team Canada's), Stanley Cups (there were 22 other players on each of those teams) and the Norris Trophy (which is generally accepted as the classic "legacy" award, in that people thought "hey, Drew Doughty doesn't have one yet", and which he won while being tied for 9th in points, tied for 11th in goals, but did finish 3rd in point shares, all according to hockey-reference.com). They continued on to call Doughty a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer. They call him one of if not the best defenseman of his generation, even though he's never been the best in any one calendar year (his Norris Trophy year included).

I'm wondering what other people think about him. Is he a generational talent defenseman that is a first ballot HOF-er, or is he a really good defenseman that played on some really good teams?


Really good defenseman (biggest positive is ability to play an absolutely crazy number of minutes per game), maybe 1st ballot HOFer (due to politics, not performance), but not a generational talent.
Brian2016 and OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 22, 2019 at 2:41 p.m.
#5
Avatar of the user
Joined: Dec. 2017
Posts: 5,012
Likes: 3,523
Doughty was never nearly as good as EK when both were at their peak. But, I'd argue that Doughty is better now b/c of Karlsson's injury trouble (His defense is literally disgusting). It's not Doughty's fault alone that the Kings are terrible offensively, but he could def. do more to help out.

He will be a HOF'er when the time comes (as will Quick), despite both players declining games. Both players won big in the playoffs despite never being anywhere close to a dominant regular season team. Legacies are built in April-June.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 22, 2019 at 2:44 p.m.
#6
Avatar of the user
Joined: Dec. 2017
Posts: 5,012
Likes: 3,523
Quoting: Bflo_Soldier
Really good defenseman (biggest positive is ability to play an absolutely crazy number of minutes per game), maybe 1st ballot HOFer (due to politics, not performance), but not a generational talent.


Most people would say Duncan Keith has had a much better career, and he has, in my opinion. But, Doughty never had Kane, Toews, or even Seabrook in their primes as teammates. Doughty's offensive numbers were never gonna be as prolific as Keith's. Or even Hedman, for that matter.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 22, 2019 at 3:00 p.m.
#7
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2016
Posts: 2,079
Likes: 433
Edited Oct. 22, 2019 at 4:13 p.m.
Quoting: Brian2016
Most people would say Duncan Keith has had a much better career, and he has, in my opinion. But, Doughty never had Kane, Toews, or even Seabrook in their primes as teammates. Doughty's offensive numbers were never gonna be as prolific as Keith's. Or even Hedman, for that matter.


Pretty good comparison...
Keith (2008-2017): 25:46 TOI and .64 pts/gm.
Doughty (2009-2018): 26:33 TOI and .57 pts/gm.
Hedman (2011-2020): 23:28 TOI and .69 pts/gm.
Brian2016 liked this.
Oct. 22, 2019 at 3:44 p.m.
#8
Emotionally in 2018
Avatar of the user
Joined: Nov. 2016
Posts: 9,290
Likes: 3,387
He's definitely got the resume to get into the Hall of Fame, but I just don't think his individual play warrants it. He's a guy who belongs in the Hall of Very Good, not the Hall of Fame.
hanson493 liked this.
Oct. 22, 2019 at 10:03 p.m.
#9
Avatar of the user
Joined: Dec. 2017
Posts: 5,012
Likes: 3,523
Quoting: Bflo_Soldier
Pretty good comparison...
Keith (2008-2017): 25:46 TOI and .64 pts/gm.
Doughty (2009-2018): 26:33 TOI and .57 pts/gm.
Hedman (2011-2020): 23:28 TOI and .69 pts/gm.


And I would argue on Doughty's behalf that Keith and Hedman have been the beneficiaries of 5-10 extra secondary assists on the PP each season that Doughty didn't get just b/c of the talent, or lack thereof, around him compared to the other two. Also, I think most people would say that Hedman is on track to be a HOF'er despite not yet winning a Cup.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 22, 2019 at 10:04 p.m.
#10
Avatar of the user
Joined: Dec. 2017
Posts: 5,012
Likes: 3,523
Quoting: Caletti12
I heard them talking about the Drew Doughty-Matthew Tkachuk beef on Tim and Sid, where they really started talking up Drew Doughty. They started listing off the accomplishments, the Olympic Gold Medals (would have been hard not to win with those team Canada's), Stanley Cups (there were 22 other players on each of those teams) and the Norris Trophy (which is generally accepted as the classic "legacy" award, in that people thought "hey, Drew Doughty doesn't have one yet", and which he won while being tied for 9th in points, tied for 11th in goals, but did finish 3rd in point shares, all according to hockey-reference.com). They continued on to call Doughty a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer. They call him one of if not the best defenseman of his generation, even though he's never been the best in any one calendar year (his Norris Trophy year included).

I'm wondering what other people think about him. Is he a generational talent defenseman that is a first ballot HOF-er, or is he a really good defenseman that played on some really good teams?


Was Doughty listed among the 100 Greatest NHL Players a few years ago? I can't remember. I think Keith was.
Oct. 23, 2019 at 10:47 a.m.
#11
Below Market Value
Avatar of the user
Joined: Nov. 2015
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 1,324
Quoting: Brian2016
Was Doughty listed among the 100 Greatest NHL Players a few years ago? I can't remember. I think Keith was.


Keith was Doughty wasn't. Ovechkin, Crosby, Toews, and Kane were the only other active players that made the list I believe.
Oct. 23, 2019 at 11:17 a.m.
#12
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 5,617
Likes: 2,763
Saw it earlier on this post and i agree with the notion of Doughty is in the Hall of Very Good. Not exactly hall of fame. When you think great dmen on the last 10-15 years. i dont think doughtys name really comes up a whole lot at the top hes pretty far down the list. Ide say chara, keith, karlsson, hedman, and a few other rank over him.
Oct. 29, 2019 at 1:12 p.m.
#13
torontos finest
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jul. 2019
Posts: 9,546
Likes: 11,169
Quoting: hanson493
Saw it earlier on this post and i agree with the notion of Doughty is in the Hall of Very Good. Not exactly hall of fame. When you think great dmen on the last 10-15 years. i dont think doughtys name really comes up a whole lot at the top hes pretty far down the list. Ide say chara, keith, karlsson, hedman, and a few other rank over him.


Doughty has all the achievements that those other players have.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 29, 2019 at 1:29 p.m.
#14
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 5,617
Likes: 2,763
Quoting: mondo
Doughty has all the achievements that those other players have.


right but when you think of shutdown defensemen of the last 10 years or guys that made the biggest contributions to their team from defense i just dont put doughty up there at the top.
Nov. 6, 2019 at 8:05 p.m.
#15
Avatar of the user
Joined: Mar. 2017
Posts: 353
Likes: 148
Drew Doughty called me 'some idiot'. #TeamLikeThat
Nov. 22, 2019 at 7:24 p.m.
#16
Once a Kings Fan Too
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 39,676
Likes: 24,591
It is true that Doughty never led the League in any category when he was in contention for the Norris Trophy (including the year he won), but in every year he was at or near the top in all meaningful categories, while the Norris has lately tended to go to the defenseman who scores the most points regardless of defensive ability. Doughty is underappreciated because that side of the game is underappreciated (including hits, goals against, giveaways v takeaways, percentage of ice time on the pp and/or pk, etc.). I'd be interested to know if "advanced metrics" now includes being able to quantify how much time a defenseman plays against other teams' first line. On that note, I'd be surprised if Erik Karlsson had ever met Alex Ovechkin while wearing a Sharks jersey except by accident.
Dec. 3, 2019 at 3:47 p.m.
#17
Below Market Value
Avatar of the user
Joined: Nov. 2015
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 1,324
Quoting: OldNYIfan
On that note, I'd be surprised if Erik Karlsson had ever met Alex Ovechkin while wearing a Sharks jersey except by accident.


He hasn't because he has yet to play against Washington at all while in a Sharks jersey. Regardless, Karlsson consistently plays against opponent's top players. His top opponents since joining the Sharks have been (by 5v5 TOI):

Drew Doughty
Anze Kopitar
Darnell Nurse
Dustin Brown
Connor McDavid
Zack Kassian
Mattias Ekholm
Jonathan Marchessault
Derek Forbort
Shea Theodore
Dec. 3, 2019 at 5:13 p.m.
#18
Once a Kings Fan Too
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 39,676
Likes: 24,591
Quoting: DoctorBreakfast
He hasn't because he has yet to play against Washington at all while in a Sharks jersey. Regardless, Karlsson consistently plays against opponent's top players. His top opponents since joining the Sharks have been (by 5v5 TOI):

Drew Doughty
Anze Kopitar
Darnell Nurse
Dustin Brown
Connor McDavid
Zack Kassian
Mattias Ekholm
Jonathan Marchessault
Derek Forbort
Shea Theodore


The fact that McDavid and Kopitar are on that list at least partially defuses the strength of my snipe. Nice research and nicer riposte!
 
Reply
To create a post please Login or Register
Question:
Options:
Add Option
Submit Poll