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Team: 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Nov. 8, 2019
Published: Nov. 8, 2019
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I wonder what the global opinion of Nylander would be if he didn't play for the Leafs? Would he still be hated by the majority of fans? Or would he be respected as much as he deserves to be? Its puzzling to me how many people seem to just hate the kid. Talk to 10 fans from 10 different teams and 8 of them will say he's probably the most overrated player in the league and the other 2 will say he's pretty good.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 11:56 a.m.
#1
RangerWall92
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I think it mostly has to do with his contract holdout last year, and fans are still holding a grudge on him for that. I think he's a fantastic, underrated player who has loads of potential and has earned his paycheck.
Nov. 8, 2019 at 11:56 a.m.
#2
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This Toronto, and things being equal (especially salary-wise) every Toronto regular gets their fair of scrutiny when things aren't perfect, and quite specifically, when the Leafs aren't winning. I think that beyond his actual salary, I honestly believe that a lot of Leafs' fans hold a grudge to what happened last season with the contract hold out. Perhaps grudge is not the right word to describe it, but it certainly being on the minds of some fans doesn't help things. Nylander is what he is and though he obviously has room to grow, potentially, there are facets to his game that make him an easier target than other Leafs players. If Nylander was playing for a smaller-market team like Carolina or Columbus, no way he would get this sort of regular criticism and no way he would be considered overrated.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 11:57 a.m.
#3
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Answer. Respected as much as he deserves to be. The real question is what's "deserve" mean?
Nov. 8, 2019 at 11:57 a.m.
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Every leaf player is worthless to every team, apparently on this site you have to include a 1st + an A prospect and take back a crap contract in order to move any leaf player. It's hilarious I just got roasted for a Minny trade and Minny has been awful and will continue to be awful. If Zucker and Spurgeon are worth what the fans claim they'd be moved
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 11:58 a.m.
#5
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Quoting: RangerWall92
I think it mostly has to do with his contract holdout last year, and fans are still holding a grudge on him for that. I think he's a fantastic, underrated player who has loads of potential and has earned his paycheck.


Why does Marner get a pass though? I don't get why fans (many of other teams) just poor the hate towards Nylander and then give Marner a pass. Is Marner worth 4 million more than Nylander? I certainly don't think so. I think Nylander has a fair contract and Marner is very much overpaid. And yet, Marner is fine and Nylander is a greedy selfish jerk who only plays for himself. I don't get it.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 11:59 a.m.
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hes a zone entry machine. hes great with the puck in the offensive zone. without the puck, hes horrible. he reminds of me ehlers a few years back, but ehlers has really worked on 2-way game (still not perfect, but better than nylanders). the way contracts are going, he's okay for his cap hit, but still an overpayment considering the leafs cap situation. he's a 2nd line player on most teams. he's not a center. maybe im biased, but id say that right now, Drouin is the better player, offensively and defensively. he wouldnt be as much scrutinized if he wasn't in toronto, or even canada. idk if he would be that respected, as there are better players out there, near the same age, and better contract.
Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:00 p.m.
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Hating him and feeling he’s a bit overrated are two completely different things. Not sure why anyone would hate him as he’s a good young player. That being said the narrative pushed by some Leafs fans that he’s an elite player when he hasn’t shown he is makes some people think he’s overrated yes. Nylander is good...very good at times but by no means elite.
Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:01 p.m.
#8
Formerly Jamiepo
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It is this stigma with him that he is soft and a one way player. This mostly comes from people who don’t watch him play. They assume he is worthless if he isn’t putting up points every night. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:02 p.m.
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Quoting: MG1986
This Toronto, and things being equal (especially salary-wise) every Toronto regular gets their fair of scrutiny when things aren't perfect, and quite specifically, when the Leafs aren't winning. I think that beyond his actual salary, I honestly believe that a lot of Leafs' fans hold a grudge to what happened last season with the contract hold out. Perhaps grudge is not the right word to describe it, but it certainly being on the minds of some fans doesn't help things. Nylander is what he is and though he obviously has room to grow, potentially, there are facets to his game that make him an easier target than other Leafs players. If Nylander was playing for a smaller-market team like Carolina or Columbus, no way he would get this sort of regular criticism and no way he would be considered overrated.


Nylander's hold out didn't really affect the team all that much though, and in the end, (looking at Matthews and Marner's contracts) Nylander was taken to town by Dubas. Does anyone actually think Marner is worth 4 million more a season than Nylander is? I certainly don't. I also think he's been better than Marner has been so far this season but he doesn't get to play on the #1 unit. Marner gives the puck away, no one really says much, Nylander gives it away and twitter blows up with Nylander Hate. Its weird.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:02 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Why does Marner get a pass though? I don't get why fans (many of other teams) just poor the hate towards Nylander and then give Marner a pass. Is Marner worth 4 million more than Nylander? I certainly don't think so. I think Nylander has a fair contract and Marner is very much overpaid. And yet, Marner is fine and Nylander is a greedy selfish jerk who only plays for himself. I don't get it.


I think it's because Nylander sat out half the season and Marner signed before camp. Marner also expressed multiple times that he wanted to remain a leaf, while Nylander wanted to be but never fully expressed it that way.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:02 p.m.
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Why does Marner get a pass though? I don't get why fans (many of other teams) just poor the hate towards Nylander and then give Marner a pass. Is Marner worth 4 million more than Nylander? I certainly don't think so. I think Nylander has a fair contract and Marner is very much overpaid. And yet, Marner is fine and Nylander is a greedy selfish jerk who only plays for himself. I don't get it.

That was only when leafs needed to re sign him. Now that he is signed he is trash again... just like nylander.
Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:06 p.m.
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Edited Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:14 p.m.
Quoting: Boomer125
Every leaf player is worthless to every team, apparently on this site you have to include a 1st + an A prospect and take back a crap contract in order to move any leaf player. It's hilarious I just got roasted for a Minny trade and Minny has been awful and will continue to be awful. If Zucker and Spurgeon are worth what the fans claim they'd be moved


No offense but look at what you offered.


Zucker, Jason
Spurgeon, Jared ($1,187,500 retained)
2020 4th round pick (MIN)



Ceci, Cody
Johnsson, Andreas
2022 1st round pick (TOR)


And then after the Minny fans respond to your offer you act like a petulant child. Why? Is it that important to win a trade on a hockey forum? Cmon now.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:07 p.m.
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Quoting: Price_is_the_goat
hes a zone entry machine. hes great with the puck in the offensive zone. without the puck, hes horrible. he reminds of me ehlers a few years back, but ehlers has really worked on 2-way game (still not perfect, but better than nylanders). the way contracts are going, he's okay for his cap hit, but still an overpayment considering the leafs cap situation. he's a 2nd line player on most teams. he's not a center. maybe im biased, but id say that right now, Drouin is the better player, offensively and defensively. he wouldnt be as much scrutinized if he wasn't in toronto, or even canada. idk if he would be that respected, as there are better players out there, near the same age, and better contract.


So is that the world we live in? If you aren't the best player at your position and age, then you are overrated. The thing that bothers me the most is that there is statistically zero evidence that he is terrible defensively. He's not great in his own zone but he isn't terrible and this year has been much improved. He's only a couple of times late in a shift made a really bad play, but I have seen a lot of great players make mistakes when they are gassed. The Sanheim goal the other night was a huge talking point in the "Nylander sucks" campaign but taken for what it was, it was just one mistake made when he was gassed. Nothing to really make a big deal about because it happens to the best of them. He is one of the best at controlled zone entries, is the best player in TO in regards to generating take aways and his transitional play in the neutral zone is elite. He also creates more offense be minute at 5v5 than almost anyone else league wide. He isn't the best player in the league but he is also far better than just an average 2nd line winger. Give him the same opportunities that Marner is given and I think Nylander could be right there near the top of the league for points.
Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:08 p.m.
#14
exo2769
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Edited Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:21 p.m.
Quoting: LoganOllivier
Nylander's hold out didn't really affect the team all that much though, and in the end, (looking at Matthews and Marner's contracts) Nylander was taken to town by Dubas. Does anyone actually think Marner is worth 4 million more a season than Nylander is? I certainly don't. I also think he's been better than Marner has been so far this season but he doesn't get to play on the #1 unit. Marner gives the puck away, no one really says much, Nylander gives it away and twitter blows up with Nylander Hate. Its weird.


Nylander's holdout affected him though...no? Not being with the team. Not building chemistry. And Marner gets a pass because he produces and plays a 2-way game, steals the puck away form the opponent far more and actually plays the PK. Those are all big differentiators. I hate to say it again, but this is the EXACT debate Hawks fans have with Saad. Obviously different styles of play, but both are possession beasts. Nylander's great at zone entry and better passing. Saad is great at driving the net and a good defensive forward. Both between $6-$7M. Both have a hard time putting up points. Somehow Saad is a cap dump and Nylander's somehow seriously getting compared to a guy that put up 94 freakin points last year AND some Selke love too. Somehow it's not just joking.

This is why I posed the early question...what's "deserve" supposed to mean.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:13 p.m.
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
So is that the world we live in? If you aren't the best player at your position and age, then you are overrated. The thing that bothers me the most is that there is statistically zero evidence that he is terrible defensively. He's not great in his own zone but he isn't terrible and this year has been much improved. He's only a couple of times late in a shift made a really bad play, but I have seen a lot of great players make mistakes when they are gassed. The Sanheim goal the other night was a huge talking point in the "Nylander sucks" campaign but taken for what it was, it was just one mistake made when he was gassed. Nothing to really make a big deal about because it happens to the best of them. He is one of the best at controlled zone entries, is the best player in TO in regards to generating take aways and his transitional play in the neutral zone is elite. He also creates more offense be minute at 5v5 than almost anyone else league wide. He isn't the best player in the league but he is also far better than just an average 2nd line winger. Give him the same opportunities that Marner is given and I think Nylander could be right there near the top of the league for points.


i saw him play last night bud. like i said, he is great offensively, but he isn't that good defensively. throw all the stats u want, but the eye test matters as well, and he doesn't pass it. he is at best a 2nd line offensive winger in this league. i never said he's overrated, but he isn't underrated either. he's hyped up because its toronto and thats it. there are better players at his age with better contracts, better skillset and better defensive games. hes not worthy of some special respect.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:18 p.m.
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Quoting: Brigid1011
No offense but look at what you offered.


Zucker, Jason
Spurgeon, Jared ($1,187,500 retained)
2020 4th round pick (MIN)



Ceci, Cody
Johnsson, Andreas
2022 1st round pick (TOR)


And then after the Minny fans respond to your offer you act like a petulant child. Why? Is it that important to win a trade on a hockey forum? Cmon now.


oh god that a bad trade.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:19 p.m.
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Quoting: Boomer125
Every leaf player is worthless to every team, apparently on this site you have to include a 1st + an A prospect and take back a crap contract in order to move any leaf player. It's hilarious I just got roasted for a Minny trade and Minny has been awful and will continue to be awful. If Zucker and Spurgeon are worth what the fans claim they'd be moved


you deserved to get roasted for that trade, it was terrible
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:21 p.m.
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Quoting: Brigid1011
Hating him and feeling he’s a bit overrated are two completely different things. Not sure why anyone would hate him as he’s a good young player. That being said the narrative pushed by some Leafs fans that he’s an elite player when he hasn’t shown he is makes some people think he’s overrated yes. Nylander is good...very good at times but by no means elite.


Why is that? Because he doesn't score 90+ points a season? He's by far the best possession player in TO, the best at controlled zone entries and the best at tilting the ice in his teams favour. And this team has Tavares, Marner and Matthews. So who is overrated? It just seems to me that unless Nylander scores 100 points he's going to be called overrated.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:26 p.m.
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Quoting: RangerWall92
I think it's because Nylander sat out half the season and Marner signed before camp. Marner also expressed multiple times that he wanted to remain a leaf, while Nylander wanted to be but never fully expressed it that way.


4 million dollars difference between their contracts. Don't give me that crap that Marner is this team player who wants whats best for the team more than Nylander is. Nylander wanted to remain a Leaf and was clear about it, he never mentioned looking for an OS, Marner's camp did and they received some and contemplated that. And yet Marner gets the pass while Nylander is the polarizing and overrated because of his contract holdout. That makes zero sense.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:26 p.m.
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Quoting: Brigid1011
No offense but look at what you offered.


Zucker, Jason
Spurgeon, Jared ($1,187,500 retained)
2020 4th round pick (MIN)



Ceci, Cody
Johnsson, Andreas
2022 1st round pick (TOR)


And then after the Minny fans respond to your offer you act like a petulant child. Why? Is it that important to win a trade on a hockey forum? Cmon now.


Look at that stats of all 4 players involved, they are actually incredibly similar, Johansson is younger,cheaper, faster and Minny needs offensive forwards, he fits well in Minny, Zucker is a defensive beast which Minny has plethora of and fits well with the high skill forwards T.O has, Ceci numbers are terrible for 2 seasons in Ottawa after Karlsson was traded and he was forced to play out of his league, in Minny he's a second pair guy and will do just fine, I also made that trade not realizing Spurgeon was extended but he is now to expensive for what he would bring. It's not about winning the trade,it's the poor evaluation, over evaluation of the Minny players and under evaluation of the leaf players.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:27 p.m.
#21
exo2769
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Why is that? Because he doesn't score 90+ points a season? He's by far the best possession player in TO, the best at controlled zone entries and the best at tilting the ice in his teams favour. And this team has Tavares, Marner and Matthews. So who is overrated? It just seems to me that unless Nylander scores 100 points he's going to be called overrated.


It's not that he needs to get above 100 points...it's that he can't get above 61...and doesn't appear to be doing it this year either despite getting PP time AND playing next to a #1OA pick constantly. I understand it may FEEL like people need him to get 100 points to see his talent, but if he could get into the mid 70's...OR...be able to play without Matthews/Tavares/Marner...it would be an entirely different story.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:34 p.m.
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Quoting: Boomer125
Look at that stats of all 4 players involved, they are actually incredibly similar, Johansson is younger,cheaper, faster and Minny needs offensive forwards, he fits well in Minny, Zucker is a defensive beast which Minny has plethora of and fits well with the high skill forwards T.O has, Ceci numbers are terrible for 2 seasons in Ottawa after Karlsson was traded and he was forced to play out of his league, in Minny he's a second pair guy and will do just fine, I also made that trade not realizing Spurgeon was extended but he is now to expensive for what he would bring. It's not about winning the trade,it's the poor evaluation, over evaluation of the Minny players and under evaluation of the leaf players.


What a load of crap. Your proposal was bad. Admit it and move on. Also sounds like you haven’t watched Spurgeon very much. Reilly would thrive with Spurgeon on his pairing.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:35 p.m.
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Quoting: exo2769
Nylander's holdout affected him though...no? Not being with the team. Not building chemistry. And Marner gets a pass because he produces and plays a 2-way game, steals the puck away form the opponent far more and actually plays the PK. Those are all big differentiators. I hate to say it again, but this is the EXACT debate Hawks fans have with Saad. Obviously different styles of play, but both are possession beasts. Nylander's great at zone entry and better passing. Saad is great at driving the net and a good defensive forward. Both between $6-$7M. Both have a hard time putting up points. Somehow Saad is a cap dump and Nylander's somehow seriously getting compared to a guy that put up 94 freakin points last year AND some Selke love too. Somehow it's not just joking.

This is why I posed the early question...what's "deserve" supposed to mean.


Okay lets go over this point by point.

His hold out affected him last season.

Yes it did, for the first 13 or 15 games or whatever he only had 1 point as he was trying to get back up to speed. After that he scored at a little bit better than a 60 point pace. So sure it did affect him holding out but it didn't hurt him, just slowed him for a little bit.

Marner gets a pass because he produces.

Not at 5v5 so far this season, and over their careers, Nylander has been the better 5v5 scorer while playing less minutes.

Marner is a 2 way player.

There actually isn't a lot of supporting evidence for this, he's really not great defensively and doesn't create as many turnovers as Nylander does who has been one of the better take away wingers over his career.

Marner kills penalties.

Sure but the Leafs PK isn't good so what are you really praising him for?

Marner did not get any Selke consideration, that is an entirely made up sentiment.

Bringing Saad into this has no baring so I won't comment on that.

Your response is a good piece of ammo though for me. Why? Because you are saying a bunch of stuff that is commonly held as correct without any real supporting evidence. Nylander is bad defensively and Marner is a two way player. This is a fact in the minds of most people but statistically speaking holds no merit. If you were to say Marner is more engaged in the defensive zone than Nylander, that would be correct to say. What is also correct to say, is that in the offensive zone and neutral zone, Nylander is the better defensive player.

So what does Nylander deserve? Not to be called overrated all the time by people who 1) don't ever watch him play and 2) haven't looked into any of the things they are using to call him overrated.
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Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:38 p.m.
#24
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Quoting: LoganOllivier
Why does Marner get a pass though? I don't get why fans (many of other teams) just poor the hate towards Nylander and then give Marner a pass. Is Marner worth 4 million more than Nylander? I certainly don't think so. I think Nylander has a fair contract and Marner is very much overpaid. And yet, Marner is fine and Nylander is a greedy selfish jerk who only plays for himself. I don't get it.


Matthews and Tavares are both making 11 mil a year so I totally understand you. I think it may just be Dubas being inexperienced and quick to give them the biggest offer before other teams
Nov. 8, 2019 at 12:38 p.m.
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Quoting: Price_is_the_goat
i saw him play last night bud. like i said, he is great offensively, but he isn't that good defensively. throw all the stats u want, but the eye test matters as well, and he doesn't pass it. he is at best a 2nd line offensive winger in this league. i never said he's overrated, but he isn't underrated either. he's hyped up because its toronto and thats it. there are better players at his age with better contracts, better skillset and better defensive games. hes not worthy of some special respect.


So because he isn't as good as Pastrnak he's overrated. That is what I am getting from you. Last night made 1 play I didn't like but it didn't result in a goal against and it was at the end of a long shift. Keep in mind Vegas is a terrific team and will win the Pacific when all is said and done. TO beat them, and while again the media is spinning last night as a steal of a win, it really wasn't. It was a good game, both teams traded chances and both goalies played great. In the end TO one and was outshot by 1. I think its safe to say that Nylander needs to be scoring above a point a game for you to think he's anything other than an overprice depth guy.
 
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