Quoting: CFMan
Bust is not the right word, but you certainly dont see him as a good player. The case can be made that the hawks are bad bad too, we arent and never really were top of the standings, it was big news when our team was a game over .500. Dach has played like 2/3 games with Kane and Debrincat when Strome was out, thats not that big of a sample size and when everybody decided to stop playing. Hughes has hall and palm and kakko has panarin, kreider on a nightly basis, Dach has Smith and Carp and he produces at a similiar rate, thats good. The point of the comparison wasnt about age, its about the varying levels of leagues, I.E. Juniors/college vs NHL. You can only compare between equal leagues. Dach has to play against harder opponents, doesnt have all of the physical tools yet, limited ice time, etc. Turcotte/Byram get to play against developing kids, some 2 or 3 years younger, less physically developed, not as fast, not as skilled. So of course you can say they look better because theyre playing easier competition. If Dach can score 35ish points on the fourth line as a rookie I'd say thats a success, given all the things holding him back (Mostly Colliton). All Im saying is the Dach doom and gloom is unwarranted at this time.
Quoting: CFMan
Bust is not the right word, but you certainly dont see him as a good player. The case can be made that the hawks are bad bad too, we arent and never really were top of the standings, it was big news when our team was a game over .500. Dach has played like 2/3 games with Kane and Debrincat when Strome was out, thats not that big of a sample size and when everybody decided to stop playing. Hughes has hall and palm and kakko has panarin, kreider on a nightly basis, Dach has Smith and Carp and he produces at a similiar rate, thats good. The point of the comparison wasnt about age, its about the varying levels of leagues, I.E. Juniors/college vs NHL. You can only compare between equal leagues. Dach has to play against harder opponents, doesnt have all of the physical tools yet, limited ice time, etc. Turcotte/Byram get to play against developing kids, some 2 or 3 years younger, less physically developed, not as fast, not as skilled. So of course you can say they look better because theyre playing easier competition. If Dach can score 35ish points on the fourth line as a rookie I'd say thats a success, given all the things holding him back (Mostly Colliton). All Im saying is the Dach doom and gloom is unwarranted at this time.
Couple of opinions. First off, really really enjoying the debate. Honestly, no bull****, you definitely are an informed fan, and thank you for not calling me a jerk or insulting me outright. I love to discuss hockey with people even though I’m stubborn with my opinions. I do like it when people prove me wrong though.
That said, my problem with comparing development between straight into the nhl and staying in juniors/college is that there’s so many instances where the latter makes players infinitely better. To your point, Dach has to play against harder opponents. Fair enough, but I’ll be honest, he had plenty of hard ones in juniors. Remember, while he played on a garbage Saskatoon team, he extremely inconsistent last year. If fact, he had went one period of like 12 games without a point, not goal, a point. Everything we heard around his hype centered around his “elevated” game in the playoffs. However, Dach never, at any point, dominated that league. In all honesty, he really needed to learn how to dominate his age group before he could be comfortable in the nhl. I would argue that plays into Colliton putting him on the fourth line.
As for players like turcotte or byram, don’t forget recent history. Great example is 2017 draft. Hirscher and Patrick were taken 1-2. 3-4-5??? That would be heiskanen, makar, and Pettersson. Hirscher is good, solid even, I wouldn’t say elite. Patrick is just a bust, I’m sorry but he’s a bust. The next three? All either played juniors or in pro leagues that (with due respect) don’t compare to the nhl. However, each one of them are wayyyyyy better than hirscher and Patrick.
One more: how about dahlin and Quinn Hughes? Same position, one was #1, the other #7. Now, this is not to suggest that dahlin is bad, he is elite, and believe he was a Calder nominee(???). Straight to the nhl as expected. Then you have Hughes who was great for a year with a bad Michigan team. Now he is pure elite, and a shoe in for a Calder nomination (and will lose to college trained (too) makar).
Point is, my only saving grace on this kid when they drafted him was the expectation that they wouldn’t rush him. Now that they have, it just concerns me after seeing how players of his build and stature have turned out lately under the same circumstances (kotkaniemi and Patrick).
Meanwhile, turcotte is playing against guys who are all his age or older, so in his case, he gets very tough competition. Byram, for a fact I know is working on his defense this year on a garbage Vancouver giants team. In both cases, though, they’ll definitely be better developed for a chance to succeed.