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Chicago tear down

Created by: pharrow
Team: 2019-20 Pittsburgh Penguins
Initial Creation Date: Dec. 14, 2019
Published: Dec. 14, 2019
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
This is never going to happen but if CHI wants a tear down. Kane could come win another ring on Sids wing.
I don't know how you value a guy about to be 32. But I know it's not like a guy who is 22 or 27.
I am going to estimate a 1st and a 2nd per year and that you get 2 years out of the guy at a decent rate. Then get stuck with a high cap hit on the declining last year.
So I went with a 1st prospect, a 1st, Bjugstad and Chucky both who could be traded and Jarry. Ithink the 3 of them are probably worth 2 2nds.
It also clears a ton of cap space as the only player here you have to worry about keeping is POJ, and Jarry unlessy ou flip him.

The value on Kane is kind of like trading Kessel. It's hard because he can control where he goes. Which limits choices and those other teams have to have cap space. Which is very limiting. So you have to be able to clear space without dishing dead weight back or make it worth taking the dead weight and then you are looking at an overly expensive return for a guy who is about to be 32.
So given that, I think much like Kessel it lowers the value on what you can get.
Trades
PIT
  1. Kane, Patrick
Additional Details:
Pens get Kane and his huge cap hit. He's 31. He's not in his prime anymore but he's still a good player. They get Bjugstad which they can flip for a pick. A former 1st in POJ, Chucky who can be flipped, Jarry who is looking like a great younger goalie, and a 1st. Kane gets to go to one of maybe a handful of teams he's waive that NMC for.
He's not going to get traded to a dead end team. No contender will give up their current build for him. If he was younger you'd be looking at more or a return. But he's gonna be 32 this season. And that contract has a huge cap hit running till he's 35 which drags it down.
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2020
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2021
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2022
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$71,649,125$132,500$3,832,500$9,850,875
Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$4,500,000$4,500,000
LW, RW
UFA - 5
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$9,500,000$9,500,000
C
NMC
UFA - 3
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$3,500,000$3,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 3
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$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$2,850,000$3M)
LW, RW, C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$8,700,000$8,700,000
C
NMC
UFA - 6
Logo of the Chicago Blackhawks
$2,625,000$2,625,000
RW
NMC
UFA - 4
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,000,000$1,000,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,250,000$1,250,000
C, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,500,000$3,500,000
LW, RW
M-NTC
UFA - 6
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$767,500$767,500 (Performance Bonus$132,500$132K)
RW, C, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$750,000$750,000
C, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$750,000$750,000
RW, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$5,300,000$5,300,000
RW
NTC
UFA - 4
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
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$4,100,000$4,100,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 4
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$7,250,000$7,250,000
RD
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,750,000$3,750,000
G
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$874,125$874,125
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
RD
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,250,000$3,250,000
LD
UFA - 4
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$5,500,000$5,500,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,250,000$1,250,000
G
UFA - 3
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$850,000$850,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$700,000$700,000
RD
UFA - 2

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Dec. 14, 2019 at 11:59 a.m.
#1
Kyle from Chicago
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Patrick Kane will be a lifelong Blackhawk. There is no way in hell that we ever trade him away.
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Dec. 14, 2019 at 12:02 p.m.
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LMAO If CHI was to ever trade Kane, which they won't, it would cost a loooot more. Dude just scored 110 points last season on a crap team. If PIT could afford him it would be Gentzuel+Poulin+Hallander+1st maybe even more.
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Dec. 14, 2019 at 12:16 p.m.
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Quoting: ClockReads2113
LMAO If CHI was to ever trade Kane, which they won't, it would cost a loooot more. Dude just scored 110 points last season on a crap team. If PIT could afford him it would be Gentzuel+Poulin+Hallander+1st maybe even more.


no it wouldn't and that's absolute nonsense. No team is giving up a young 40 goal scoring Gentzuel for 32 year old Kane.
Please, come back down to reality.
Be honest in your assessment. A. you have the problem of working around the NMC which limits your options. B. you have the huge cap hit and making it fit without dumping dead weight on you. C. he's 32 this year. How many more years you think you will get out of a 32 year old guy playing at a high level. Honestly there aren't many guys 34+ in this league keeping up. Most of them aren't nearly as good as they were in their prime.
So you won't get nearly that crack head return.
Like I said. It seems like you'd get a 1st and a 2nd for each of those 2 years. Because Kane at 35 probably isn't worth the 10 million cap hit he holds. Hell he might not be worth it at 34.
Dec. 14, 2019 at 12:19 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
no it wouldn't and that's absolute nonsense. No team is giving up a young 40 goal scoring Gentzuel for 32 year old Kane.
Please, come back down to reality.
Be honest in your assessment. A. you have the problem of working around the NMC which limits your options. B. you have the huge cap hit and making it fit without dumping dead weight on you. C. he's 32 this year. How many more years you think you will get out of a 32 year old guy playing at a high level. Honestly there aren't many guys 34+ in this league keeping up. Most of them aren't nearly as good as they were in their prime.
So you won't get nearly that crack head return.
Like I said. It seems like you'd get a 1st and a 2nd for each of those 2 years. Because Kane at 35 probably isn't worth the 10 million cap hit he holds. Hell he might not be worth it at 34.


Ahhh the classic "he isn't even that good" argument every one has when they are trying to trade for that player! You aren't getting Kane for the garbage you proposed. Maybe my offer was too much (didn't take into account the MNC) but it would definitely start with Guentzel+1st.
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Dec. 14, 2019 at 12:26 p.m.
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Quoting: ClockReads2113
Ahhh the classic "he isn't even that good" argument every one has when they are trying to trade for that player! You aren't getting Kane for the garbage you proposed. Maybe my offer was too much (didn't take into account the MNC) but it would definitely start with Guentzel+1st.


no it wouldn't because no team is giving that up. None. at all. Its absolute nonsense.
Not even worth arguing that with you. good luck with that.
Dec. 14, 2019 at 12:33 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
no it wouldn't because no team is giving that up. None. at all. Its absolute nonsense.
Not even worth arguing that with you. good luck with that.


I guarantee if someone was trading for crosby, you would demand a teams 5 best players and 5 1st round picks, and say anything less is stupid for pittsburgh. Thats how kane is to chicago. For once, stop being biased
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Dec. 14, 2019 at 12:36 p.m.
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Quoting: hockeyfanatic05
I guarantee if someone was trading for crosby, you would demand a teams 5 best players and 5 1st round picks, and say anything less is stupid for pittsburgh. Thats how kane is to chicago. For once, stop being biased


Thank you.
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Dec. 14, 2019 at 12:49 p.m.
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This is so off it's not funny. If Chicago is rebuilding and in some crazy world Kane and Chicago agree to a trade, it STARTS with (2) 1st round picks and a A prospect. 110 point guys, on a crap team, don't grow on trees. You're asking for a top 10 player in the league and top 5 forward in the league who's going to continue to perform at a very high level for the duration of his contract. What you proposed here would be for a UFA rental of Kane.
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Dec. 14, 2019 at 1:20 p.m.
#9
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The first 6 words of your team explanation are correct!
Dec. 14, 2019 at 3:22 p.m.
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Quoting: hockeyfanatic05
I guarantee if someone was trading for crosby, you would demand a teams 5 best players and 5 1st round picks, and say anything less is stupid for pittsburgh. Thats how kane is to chicago. For once, stop being biased


I have never said the Penguins would demand less, but that's because they HAVE a window and it exists BECAUSE of Crosby.
The deal here is chicago doesn't and you have to ask yourself whats left, and what is a realistic return.
Can chicago turn it around in 2 years, and the answer in this mythical ACGM is that they decide to do a tear down, like the chicago fan posted earlier.
We both know we could not trade Crosby for Pasta.
That's basically what he's saying. And I said that's total BS. And you would be an idiot to argue otherwise because Boston would not make that deal.
That's really a good comparable for his nonsense.
So please stuff it. No one is being a homer. Reality is no one is giving that up for a 32 year old guy. No matter what some delusional fan wants.
Dec. 14, 2019 at 3:28 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
I have never said the Penguins would demand less, but that's because they HAVE a window and it exists BECAUSE of Crosby.
The deal here is chicago doesn't and you have to ask yourself whats left, and what is a realistic return.
Can chicago turn it around in 2 years, and the answer in this mythical ACGM is that they decide to do a tear down, like the chicago fan posted earlier.
We both know we could not trade Crosby for Pasta.
That's basically what he's saying. And I said that's total BS. And you would be an idiot to argue otherwise because Boston would not make that deal.
That's really a good comparable for his nonsense.
So please stuff it. No one is being a homer. Reality is no one is giving that up for a 32 year old guy. No matter what some delusional fan wants.


Reality is CHI isn't trading their best player and one of the faces of their franchise. So please stuff it and stop being delusional
Dec. 14, 2019 at 3:35 p.m.
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Quoting: ChiHawk
This is so off it's not funny. If Chicago is rebuilding and in some crazy world Kane and Chicago agree to a trade, it STARTS with (2) 1st round picks and a A prospect. 110 point guys, on a crap team, don't grow on trees. You're asking for a top 10 player in the league and top 5 forward in the league who's going to continue to perform at a very high level for the duration of his contract. What you proposed here would be for a UFA rental of Kane.


no what we are talking about is a guy who is going to be 32 in under 2 months. And to say he will perform good when he's 35 is nonsense. No one knows that and the odds of that being true are 50/50 at best.
Yes he's a good player, I stated that above. But I also listed a slew of other reasons that make it harder to get the return you are asking for.
As far as the 2 1st parts I agree, and I have included that in there. I don't know if you would get a truly A prospect for him on top of that. Simply because of the cap hit and the fact that he's going to playoff teams IF he were to go. Not many of the playoff teams really have the kind of prospect you are looking for. Those are usually on teams that are picking high not in the playoffs.
But limited pool of partners, with the cap hit, combined with the age does not make it the same as trading say a McDavid. It's just isn't.
Some people just don't want to admit that. It would be one thing is Chicago was in a cup window. Then the Reward to trade would never be worth it and an unrealistic expectation would be expected.
But there is no cup window here. If there is no cup window you have to ask yourself, at what point is it best for both the player and the franchise to move on it. Which is why they would do a rebuild.
Not that I'm saying they will choose that. I'm sure they feel like they can turn it around. But if you were to do that, and you're options were limited. I don't think you would find the return you think you are going to get. As I'm sure he'd want on a real contender and they probably aren't giving up what got them there. Most likely they don't have the prospect who is a top 5 pick or whatever.
Dec. 14, 2019 at 3:35 p.m.
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Quoting: hockeyfanatic05
Reality is CHI isn't trading their best player and one of the faces of their franchise. So please stuff it and stop being delusional


no one said they were. It's an ACGM asshat.
Dec. 14, 2019 at 3:52 p.m.
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Edited Dec. 14, 2019 at 4:02 p.m.
Quoting: pharrow
no one said they were. It's an ACGM asshat.


Its still reality. Dont like people calling you out for being biased and stupid, dont post clearly biased trades. Not 1 person has agreed with you, but multiple people have said your values are off. That says something..... Youre trading an overpaid 3c, a struggling UFA, a hot goalie, a late 1st, and a meh prospect for a superstar forward, Come on now
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Dec. 14, 2019 at 4:57 p.m.
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@ Pharrow

Kane just put up the best numbers of his career last season. To suggest there is going to be this great falloff because he turns 32 is assanine. Certain players can play at an elite level into their mid 30s. Kane is one of those if you understand how he plays the game and why this is possible and he just demonstrated that last season. As such, his contract is very much fair value and should remain that way for the next few seasons.

If the Hawks were in cup contention, there is no way in hell they trade Kane. If they aren't, there's still no way in hell because he's a leader and legacy in Chicago. That said, if Chicago is tearing is it all down, then there is no way they accept anything less then (2) 1st round picks and prospects. We don't want a bunch of players that bottom 6 or depth guys, that's not how you build for the future. Chucky is a perfect example of this in your trade and Bjustad you've got to be kidding right? While the hawks can eat a contract for the remainder of the season very short term and to be expected to trade cap space to fit Kane in a new team, a team that trades away their best franchise player to rebuild is not interested in taking on cap beyond the remainder of the season and taking on mid age players who are bottom 6 or bottom pairing, they will want picks and prospects.
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Dec. 14, 2019 at 7:01 p.m.
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Quoting: ChiHawk


no one is suggesting the wheels come off at 32. That was never the point if you read it you understood that.
But the reality is the number of players 34+ playing at a PPG level 2.
There is typically a fall off, it's normal. Above .6 PPG there are 6.
That's not saying there aren't guys paying well at 34. But the drop off is there.
My point was never that he isn't playing well at 32. My point was when he's 35 on the last year of that deal. You aren't getting a 10 million dollar player. I don't know how you would even want to argue that.
As for the return. There are 2 1st there. POJ was a mid 1st round pick and is only a 20 year old prospect. And the other 1st.
I don't know why you don't see that. And everything else there other than Jarry is trade bait for picks.
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the return can't change. But you won't ever get a 40 goal young winger for him like some people have suggested. That's absurd.
Dec. 14, 2019 at 11:03 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
no one is suggesting the wheels come off at 32. That was never the point if you read it you understood that.
But the reality is the number of players 34+ playing at a PPG level 2.
There is typically a fall off, it's normal. Above .6 PPG there are 6.
That's not saying there aren't guys paying well at 34. But the drop off is there.
My point was never that he isn't playing well at 32. My point was when he's 35 on the last year of that deal. You aren't getting a 10 million dollar player. I don't know how you would even want to argue that.
As for the return. There are 2 1st there. POJ was a mid 1st round pick and is only a 20 year old prospect. And the other 1st.
I don't know why you don't see that. And everything else there other than Jarry is trade bait for picks.
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the return can't change. But you won't ever get a 40 goal young winger for him like some people have suggested. That's absurd.


The reality is we are talking about Kane, not the average 34 year old player. Kane is exceptional not average. Kane is in the top 10 player in the league, you can bet he's going be a ppg 3 years from now. He's on pace for 38 goals and 92 points playing on a bad team. He's not digressing.

POJ is no longer a 1st round pick, he's 20 years old and playing his first AHL season after a so so stint in the QMHL. He has all of 3 points in the AHL....nothing exceptional. He's 6'2" and only 161lbs, it's hard to see if this guy is going to play at the NHL let alone stick in the AHL.

In addition you threw in a bunch of useless junk. Everyone here is saying you are way off and you are arguing with everyone. At some point you'd hope you realize everyone is not wrong and perhaps you are.
Dec. 15, 2019 at 10:12 a.m.
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Quoting: ChiHawk
The reality is we are talking about Kane, not the average 34 year old player. Kane is exceptional not average. Kane is in the top 10 player in the league, you can bet he's going be a ppg 3 years from now. He's on pace for 38 goals and 92 points playing on a bad team. He's not digressing.

POJ is no longer a 1st round pick, he's 20 years old and playing his first AHL season after a so so stint in the QMHL. He has all of 3 points in the AHL....nothing exceptional. He's 6'2" and only 161lbs, it's hard to see if this guy is going to play at the NHL let alone stick in the AHL.

In addition you threw in a bunch of useless junk. Everyone here is saying you are way off and you are arguing with everyone. At some point you'd hope you realize everyone is not wrong and perhaps you are.


You don't know any of that about Kane, you are hoping and projecting.
You can look back at the list of 34+ players who are 5'10, generously I might add.. It's like finding where's waldo. One of the the biggest correlations of a players durability has been their size. Their able to physically still compete.

34 years old and 5'10
https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active&limits=age-34-46,height-63-70

So please don't come tell me about what you know.
You don't know anything. You hope. But wheels come off fast and guys get sick of being hit.
I'm not saying there aren't any guys 34 + under 6 feet, but how many of them are the player they use to be. None.
You want to assume he'll be a 90 point player then. Like he is today. But you don't know that and all stats show that's probably not the case. A lot of really great players fall off. Yes they might still be able to ice a role, but it's not the role they use to have and dominate. Even Bergeron in Boston plays a different role than what he use to. His Ozone starts are up to 62%, they were never that high, his whole career they were 40 something percent. Why? Because they are trying to get the best of what they can out of him, without wearing him down. Because even they know he's not the same guy. Still a great player playing above his age though, but between him and OV who's a 6'3 240lb bull, You don't really have anyone playing at that PPG pace.
You look at Kane, He's had 60-70% Ozone starts his whole career. There is no hiding him when the decline happens. And it will, time is undefeated.
You got a 50/50 chance at best he plays at a ppg level at 35. I would say it's less.
So don't tell me he's a 10 mil player at 34-35. He's most likely not. That's just you unwilling to recognize reality.
Dec. 15, 2019 at 12:23 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
You don't know any of that about Kane, you are hoping and projecting.
You can look back at the list of 34+ players who are 5'10, generously I might add.. It's like finding where's waldo. One of the the biggest correlations of a players durability has been their size. Their able to physically still compete.

34 years old and 5'10
https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active&limits=age-34-46,height-63-70

So please don't come tell me about what you know.
You don't know anything. You hope. But wheels come off fast and guys get sick of being hit.
I'm not saying there aren't any guys 34 + under 6 feet, but how many of them are the player they use to be. None.
You want to assume he'll be a 90 point player then. Like he is today. But you don't know that and all stats show that's probably not the case. A lot of really great players fall off. Yes they might still be able to ice a role, but it's not the role they use to have and dominate. Even Bergeron in Boston plays a different role than what he use to. His Ozone starts are up to 62%, they were never that high, his whole career they were 40 something percent. Why? Because they are trying to get the best of what they can out of him, without wearing him down. Because even they know he's not the same guy. Still a great player playing above his age though, but between him and OV who's a 6'3 240lb bull, You don't really have anyone playing at that PPG pace.
You look at Kane, He's had 60-70% Ozone starts his whole career. There is no hiding him when the decline happens. And it will, time is undefeated.
You got a 50/50 chance at best he plays at a ppg level at 35. I would say it's less.
So don't tell me he's a 10 mil player at 34-35. He's most likely not. That's just you unwilling to recognize reality.


No, I'm going off of Kane's play and stats. You are going off of averages which is pure stupidity when you are talking one of the best players to ever play in the league. Furthermore, Kane doesn't play a physical game and rarely takes a hit...that's a HUGE difference in the mileage on his skates versus the average player. Those types of players last longer and that is a fact. So an elite player that just put up the best numbers of his career at 31 last season that isn't physical and doesn't take hits is what you should be looking at, not his height! LMAO

There is a reason that every other poster here has said you are way off, start there and instead of arguing your stupidity.
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Dec. 15, 2019 at 12:32 p.m.
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Quoting: ChiHawk
No, I'm going off of Kane's play and stats. You are going off of averages which is pure stupidity when you are talking one of the best players to ever play in teh league.

There is a reason that every other poster here has said you are way off, start there.


You act like there weren't any "one of the best players" before him to be there now at 34-35+
I hate to break it to you, Player don't get to play forever. They age out. You speculate he can still play there at 34-35.
But most people are reasonable and realize the window closes. Go ask penguins fans about their closing window with Crosby being 32 and Malkin 33. That window is what maybe 2 years and they are done.
And notice what the team does for them. Surrounds them with younger and faster players to help make up for their aging.
Don't think for one second most penguins fans are sitting there thinking, oh yeah they will still be in the cup hunt with 35 year old Crosby and 36 year old Malkin. That's nonsense and every one knows it.
Will they still be able to fill a role, probably on a 3rd line due to their not having the speed they use to, maybe. Really depends. But the future is reduced roles and younger talent coming in.
It's not, Crosby will carry the team on his back at 35. No one expects that.
But ok, Kane will be a 500000 point player at 35. keep with that.
I don't have time with your nonsense. good luck to you.
Dec. 15, 2019 at 12:32 p.m.
#21
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Quoting: pharrow
You act like there weren't any "one of the best players" before him to be there now at 34-35+
I hate to break it to you, Player don't get to play forever. They age out. You speculate he can still play there at 34-35.
But most people are reasonable and realize the window closes. Go ask penguins fans about their closing window with Crosby being 32 and Malkin 33. That window is what maybe 2 years and they are done.
And notice what the team does for them. Surrounds them with younger and faster players to help make up for their aging.
Don't think for one second most penguins fans are sitting there thinking, oh yeah they will still be in the cup hunt with 35 year old Crosby and 36 year old Malkin. That's nonsense and every one knows it.
Will they still be able to fill a role, probably on a 3rd line due to their not having the speed they use to, maybe. Really depends. But the future is reduced roles and younger talent coming in.
It's not, Crosby will carry the team on his back at 35. No one expects that.
But ok, Kane will be a 500000 point player at 35. keep with that.
I don't have time with your nonsense. good luck to you.


Not even reading this, you're done here.
Dec. 15, 2019 at 12:34 p.m.
#22
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Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 19,215
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Quoting: ChiHawk
Not even reading this, you're done here.


nah you did, you just can't argue your own nonsense anymore to think kane is a 90 point player at 35. what horse****. and everyone with a brain knows that.
 
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