No.

Leafs don't need Ritchie by the way. For Manson alone, I think a deal would need to include Kapanen (or Johnsson), Timashov, a good prospect like Bracco, and at least a 2nd, if not a 1st rounder. If they want to take Ceci as well, not going to stop them :P

Muzzin didn't cost anything close to Kapanen.

Talks for Manson don't start without Lilja... No other reason for the ducks to move Manson... Much less the rest of the passage the ducks are sending, imo Ritchie is one of the more important players in the forward core (and still young cheap etc) and Miller who is also our only capable NHL goalie aside from obv Gibby

Nope

Let's compare, shall we. What brought Muzzin to Toronto was, arguably (talk to Scott Wheeler if you have an issue with prospect grading here) an A prospect in Grundstrom and B right-handed D prospect in Durzi in addition to a 1st round draft pick. Muzzin came with 1.5 years of of control and was 29 years old at the time. Keep in mind that you seem to pay more for handedness, as in right-handed, when it comes to defenders, because there are less of them, and certainly less decent ones around. By most accounts, Bracco is a B prospect, so there are holes to fill on the deal. Kapanen is young and has control. Trying to be as objective as possible, I would consider him a borderline top-6 right now. What you are getting in Manson is 2.5 years of control, and the kid is right-handed, 28 years old. He skates exceptionally well considering his frame (not to say he is fast) and is not just a pure hitter. He can defend well, positionally, and can kill penalties effectively. I would call him a solid top-4. So does Kapanen = Manson? I would say no. Does Kapanen = a 1st rounder and A prospect? I would say no, so even with Bracco added, and accounting for the extra control, handedness and age, I would say at minimum, such a deal would require Kapanen, Bracco and a reasonably high draft pick (like a 2nd rounder or better) for Manson alone. And that would be the minimum. Now consider the fact that other teams might be more desperate than Toronto for defense and might be willing to offer more, it would be in the Leafs interest to get something done quickly, even if they have to overpay a little. Overpayment in the form of Timashov, to me, is a throw away. So Kapanen, Timashov, Bracco and a 2nd would be a very reasonable (not necessarily fair) considering the market.

I think you're overvaluing Manson. He's not worth that much. I mean, Kaps + Timashov + Bracco + 1st is far too much. For ANA to move Manson, we'd probably need a young prospect who can replace him in the future + pick. So we'd need either Liljegren or Sandin coming back with a mid-round pick attached. Kapanen is no better than what we already have and he's more expensive. Same goes for Timashov and Bracco. We have stacks of young winger prospects. We need good young D prospects with top 4 upside, or a franchise forward prospect if you've got one hiding in the cupboards :P.

Edit: that would just be for Manson alone. It gets more expensive if we're taking back Ceci and adding Ritchie, etc.

You cannot say in the same sentence, overvalue (on my proposed deal) then throw in names like Liljegren or Sandin. Either of these prospects have more (trade) value than Kapanen, so what you are saying is totally incorrect, as far as "overvaluing" is concerned. The Leafs have an overabundance of forwards, so whatever deal Toronto makes for a defender, will likely be forwards going the other way. Considering the mess Anaheim is in, I would think Anaheim would jump on my deal. As far as Manson's value is concerned, not a chance the Leafs part with either prospect blueliner.

There are a lot of things wrong with that statement. Grundstrom was never an A Prospect and Druzi was a long shot from day 1. The late 1st had the most value in that trade. The rest of the stuff about Manson is all just a sales pitch, he's a fine player and thats all. The notion that RHD are more expensive than LHD is also a myth that is only real on this sity. I don't want Manson, he's not worth what it would cost to get him and is too expensive for the future of this franchise. Keep him.

Manson isn't the saviour of TO. He is a very much better version of Ceci, but that's it. I don't think in the TO puck possession system that Manson has the puck moving and skating ability to be overly successful. Yeah TO may move a forward for defensive help but there are better moves to be made. Let someone else overpay for Manson and then realize that he's really just a defensive defenceman who isn't overly good at moving the puck.

As I clearly mentioned, talk to Scott Wheeler if you have an issue with the ranking. That's where I am getting it from. After talking to Scott, I would strongly consider making a call to the Leafs' front office and tell them to stop talking to Anaheim then. Because conversations with the Ducks are ongoing and though it may not be Manson, something between the Leafs and Ducks could surely happen sometime soon.

*rolls eyes* Here we go again with TOR fans overvaluing prospects. Lijlegren and Sandin have top 4 upside at best. Could they surpass that? Sure. But there is nothing in their current play that would suggest they'll be anything more than top 4 D-man... and that's if they even make the jump from AHL to NHL (surprise surprise - prospects have risk attached to them!). Liljegren in particular is lagging behind the other D-man in his draft class, even D man drafted below him.

So what you're telling me is that a prospect who has top 4 POTENTIAL, just POTENTIAL, is worth more than an top 6 winger currently in the NHL playing + 2 x B prospects + 1st round pick? They worth more than that entire package?

Grundstrom is now 22 years old with 25 NHL games under his belt and can't make the LA Kings, seems Scott Wheeler was overly optimistic. Also not sure if you are aware, but this site isn't the Leafs front office, and as for all the Manson talk, I want it to end as well. Its just ridiculous.

Do you have a source on that? Not calling you out or anything. I am just interested.



It could just be a straight up deal to take on Ceci. We'd probably do it for your CLB 3rd rounder at the TDL. In terms of players, Manson is the only one from ANA that makes sense to me. Having said that, Manson's dad is very well liked by the club and so is Manson. I doubt he's moved, especially considering we have no one who can step in and replace him. I guess you could argue Rakell makes sense from a TOR perspective. He's an upgrade on anyone on your left side and very cheap for another 2 seasons beyond this one, but I don't think you have the assets to acquire him personally.

It had been discussed by Elliotte Friedman, I believe it was Saturday, during the HNIC broadcast, but Bob Mackenzie yesterday verified that point.

If you are trying to compare a Muzzin deal in comparison to something the Leafs do at present, you have to weigh them at the value of the assets at time the deal was made. Whether you believe it, or not, and whatever he's become now, does not matter. At the time of the Muzzin deal, the Leafs traded an A prospect. That's the value added to the Muzzin deal. So, if you want to make a comparison, do it the right way.

We cannot have this conversation if you do not understand how prospects are valued, both league-wide amongst all 31 teams, and internally. But to answer your specific question, when you look at the Leafs depth, do you honestly believe Kapanen, a fringe top-6 on a good contract with control and lightning quick speed, has more value to the Leafs then a B+ right handed defensive prospect that basically will cost them the league minimum for the next 3 seasons, filling out a potential as part of their top-4, and someone who has improved his defensive game tremendously since joining the Marlies. The answer every time is yes, Liljegren is worth more to the Leafs than Kapanen and has higher trade value on the trade market because of his potential.

Grundstrom was never an A prospect. His scouting report was Leo Komarov with slightly better hands. This just sounds like one of those, "He's our best prospect that means he's an A prospect regardless of the fact that he's only best because right now all our actual best prospects are on our team." scenario. Grundstrom was a 2nd round pick who never was projected to be anything other than a physical depth forward. Never was he an A prospect.

Don't be swayed by the draft slot, and yes he was. You can do the research if you want.

Jesus Christ man, you saying whatever you want to make your words reasonable, doesn't make them reasonable. Grundstrom was a disposable piece, a prospect that may or may not have ever done anything. I honeslty can't believe this conversation. You talk Manson up way beyond his ability and results so you can justify your insane ask, that doesn't work because reality speaks louder than fans desire. And now you are talking up a B prospect who has amounted to nothing and was deemed expendable by the Leaf because he was in fact never an A prospect to make your argument better. Sandin is an A prospect, Liljegren is an A prospect, Robertson is an A prospect. You can use whatever obscure quotes from whoever you want, but the reality is just reality. Blowing things out of proportion to make your arguement. I am very certain that you 100% know that Grundstrom and Sandin, or Liljegren are not even remotely close to being the same level of prospects, ever.

I mean, you can say anything you want. Doesn't make it right. The best part of all of this is when we are talking prospects, you very clearly add "who has amounted to nothing". Lots of solid prospects don't make it, ever. That, again, was never my point. When you become an expert on prospects, let me know. I'll be waiting

So you cherry pick one sentence and ignore the rest, this conversation is now stupid. The facts are Grundstrom was a mid 2nd round pick, there are almost zero A prospects picked in the 2nd round. He was traded in his 3rd season after his draft during which he never separated himself beyond being considered Leo Komarov with hands. Look friend, I am not giving you opinions, I am giving you facts. Sandin was just named the top defenceman at the world juniors, that makes him an A prospect, what on earth did Grundstrom do to be considered anywhere close to that level of a prospect? Doesn't this conversation just seem utterly stupid that you are arguing about the value of a prospect that was traded to a different team, so you can prove that your perceived value of a different player should warrant a bigger return? Especially when you say something insane like Grundstrom was an A prospect so Manson is worth Sandin? This is just silly now.

Kk. If its just Elliote Friedman there is a 90% chance its pure speculation then.



Yeah, anyone can have high "perceived value" to a club based on various reasons i.e. age, cap considerations, they like him and view him as a potential leader, etc., but I am talking strictly about objective value. In a vacuum, that Kapanen + package is worth more than Liljegren and probably Sandin. I understand why TOR may not wish to move those players, but that doesn't increase their objective value, only their perceived value to TOR.

In any event, Manson doesn't leave ANA without a young, promising prospect with top 4D upside coming the other way, likely with a + attached. We moved Montour for Guhle (young prospect with top 4 upside) + 1st and Manson is better than Montour. Manson is also well liked and we have no one coming through to replace him, so he also has very high perceived value to ANA (see how it can work both ways).