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Why Cant Leafs Fans Accept This

Created by: OldNYIfan
Team: 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Jan. 26, 2020
Published: Jan. 26, 2020
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
This is fair value for Josh Manson.

Manson is our number one RhD. On most teams, and almost all good ones, he isn't a number one, but that's all we've got, so he has value to us. Therefore, we won't move him unless we get a replacement back. Hence the inclusion of Timothy Liljegren in the deal.

Manson is valuable to you now and may even help you get back into the playoffs this year. Liljegren is of no value to us this year and probably won't help get us back into the playoffs next year, either. Therefore, we need compensating value for the difference in impact. Hence the inclusion of the second-round pick in the deal.

Manson is signed for two more years. Therefore, he is not a rental and has particular value in light of the fact that right now, you have only one defenseman signed for next year. Hence the inclusion of a prospect in the deal.

Please stop creating team constructions suggesting that we would trade Manson for bit players and mid-level draft picks. It just wastes everybody's time.

Note that this trade requires an additional move (Ceci) before Muzzin and Rielly can come off the LTIR list.
Trades
ANA
  1. Bracco, Jeremy
  2. Liljegren, Timothy
  3. 2020 2nd round pick (TOR)
  4. 2020 6th round pick (TOR)
Additional Details:
The 6th round pick is transferred only if Toronto wins at least one round in the 2020 Stanley Cup playoffs.
Retained Salary Transactions
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2020
Logo of the CBJ
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the VGK
Logo of the CAR
Logo of the COL
Logo of the SJS
Logo of the STL
Logo of the WPG
2021
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
2022
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
Logo of the TOR
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
22$81,500,000$76,641,310$0$70,000$4,858,690
Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$3,400,000$3,400,000
LW, RW
UFA - 4
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$11,634,000$11,634,000
C
UFA - 5
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$10,893,000$10,893,000
RW
UFA - 6
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,250,000$2,250,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$11,000,000$11,000,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 6
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$6,962,366$6,962,366
RW
UFA - 5
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$3,500,000$3,500,000
LW, C, RW
UFA - 4
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$3,200,000$3,200,000
RW
UFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$925,000$925,000
RW, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$675,000$675,000
C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$700,000$700,000
C, RW
NTC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$694,444$694,444 (Performance Bonus$70,000$70K)
LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$700,000$700,000
C
UFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$863,333$863,333
LD/RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,750,000$2,750,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$700,000$700,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Anaheim Ducks
$2,050,000$2,050,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$700,000$700,000
G
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$894,167$894,167
LD
UFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,500,000$4,500,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$675,000$675,000
RD
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$775,000$775,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
LD
UFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$4,000,000$4,000,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$925,000$925,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,300,000$5,300,000
RW
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,250,000$5,250,000
RW
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 1

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Jan. 26, 2020 at 6:32 p.m.
#1
Xx_Zegras46_xX
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Yes! Finally someone gets it!!!
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 6:35 p.m.
#2
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Once a Kings Fan Too
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Quoting: MDA_47
Yes! Finally someone gets it!!!


Yeah, but I'm on YOUR side. How does this help us?
Jan. 26, 2020 at 6:41 p.m.
#3
Xx_Zegras46_xX
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Quoting: OldNYIfan
Yeah, but I'm on YOUR side. How does this help us?


Honestly idc. I just want leafs fans to shut up once and a while
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 6:43 p.m.
#4
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I don't understand why Leaf fans are still so high on Liljegren he isn't helping their team anytime soon
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 6:44 p.m.
#5
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I'd be willing to take Ceci as well, you could even replace the 6th or Bracco with him bc in see them but as basically 0 value to the ducks
Jan. 26, 2020 at 6:45 p.m.
#6
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Quoting: Jesus
I don't understand why Leaf fans are still so high on Liljegren he isn't helping their team anytime soon


THIS!!!! There's so many people that still think he's gonna be a number 1 d man or smth insane like that, it's crazy lol, like he's good, but he's not THAT good, he'll probably end up about where Manson is rn, a good #3, serviceable #2
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 6:48 p.m.
#7
C,mon Leafs...Please
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I guess I will have to scratch my Manson for Petan, Ceci and Gravel...rats!
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 6:49 p.m.
#8
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Quoting: AFOX10900
I'd be willing to take Ceci as well, you could even replace the 6th or Bracco with him bc in see them but as basically 0 value to the ducks


I'd be happy to solve that problem for the Maple Leafs, too, but it would cost them their 2020 fourth-rounder, too.
Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:10 p.m.
#9
Shibbal18
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Edited Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:37 p.m.
Both sides are actually right. Mansons having a bad year. If its injury related he should shut it down. But when he's out there his team mates are better off than without him (which probably says more about Anaheim's D than Manson). Problem is, the way he's currently playing, he wouldnt be much of an upgrade over Ceci. TML is probably hoping he improves with better teammates
Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:14 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: Jesus
I don't understand why Leaf fans are still so high on Liljegren he isn't helping their team anytime soon


Then why do you want him so bad?
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:14 p.m.
#11
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This is a good trade. Value is a little high on Aneheim but still a good trade.
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:16 p.m.
#12
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As a Leafs fan I have no issue with what's been proposed here, now we are really high on Lilly and strictly cause he all we really have to get excited about on the right side, now if he was going to be that top 4 pair guy for Rielly we'd of seen more of him by now, Mansi really is a perfect partner for Rielly. If Rielly is tracking to be ready to return early (doubt we see him before mid march) than Ceci is movable and not overly expensive to move, if not and Leafs are in the Playoffs they have pretty solid depth to cover injury
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:23 p.m.
#13
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You don't trade Liljegren for Manson, you'd package him for somebody much better. Manson is a d-man with very little offensive upside whose defensive numbers have been declining. Not to say that I wouldn't like him on my team, I love the way he plays and think he would help the Leafs, but if that's the ask, it's gonna be a hard no. This package is equal to if not better than what the Leafs gave for Muzzin who is far and away the better player. Manson's value to the Ducks doesn't make him more valuable to every other team in the league.
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:25 p.m.
#14
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Quoting: Jesus
I don't understand why Leaf fans are still so high on Liljegren he isn't helping their team anytime soon


If he isn't traded he'll probably be on the team by the end of the year.
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:34 p.m.
#15
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Quoting: Shibbal18
Both sides are actually right. Mansons having a bad year. If its injury related he should shut it down. But when he's out their his team mates are better off than without him (which probably says more about Anaheim's D than Manson). Problem is, the way he's currently playing, he wouldnt be much of an upgrade over Ceci. TML is probably hoping he improves with better teammates


The thing is, Manson this year is much much better than Manson last year, he's still playing well above average defensively, and about average offensively, and (according to his SKATR chart) he has played some of the toughest minutes int the NHL, and he's also had a much much better impact than most of his teammates have...
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:37 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
You don't trade Liljegren for Manson, you'd package him for somebody much better. Manson is a d-man with very little offensive upside whose defensive numbers have been declining. Not to say that I wouldn't like him on my team, I love the way he plays and think he would help the Leafs, but if that's the ask, it's gonna be a hard no. This package is equal to if not better than what the Leafs gave for Muzzin who is far and away the better player. Manson's value to the Ducks doesn't make him more valuable to every other team in the league.


Yes, his defensive numbers have been declining sort of, they have improved from last year, they still are well above average, and his value to the ducks does make it so that other teams are going to have to overpay to get him, they's be perfectly happy keeping him
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:47 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: AFOX10900
Yes, his defensive numbers have been declining sort of, they have improved from last year, they still are well above average, and his value to the ducks does make it so that other teams are going to have to overpay to get him, they's be perfectly happy keeping him


If a team is going to overpay for a guy because of the value that he has to his current team rather than pay for what he will bring to their team then they are being stupid. Of course they can still do it, I just hope it isn't my team that will. As for the Ducks, if they want to keep him unless they get an overpay, they can go right ahead. His value decreases the older he gets and the less time he has on his deal. If they would rather keep him when they are nowhere near contention and won't be for the rest of his deal rather than trading him when they will get the most back... Well then I feel for Ducks fans
Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:54 p.m.
#18
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
If a team is going to overpay for a guy because of the value that he has to his current team rather than pay for what he will bring to their team then they are being stupid. Of course they can still do it, I just hope it isn't my team that will. As for the Ducks, if they want to keep him unless they get an overpay, they can go right ahead. His value decreases the older he gets and the less time he has on his deal. If they would rather keep him when they are nowhere near contention and won't be for the rest of his deal rather than trading him when they will get the most back... Well then I feel for Ducks fans


If they trade him and don't get an RHD back, it will also ruin who knows how many years of competing before they can draft and develop multiple capable RHD men, i mean they already have a young core, a few elite pieces (Zegras, Gibby, likely top 5 pick in 2020) coming up, just not an RHD
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:56 p.m.
#19
Jah1722
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Quoting: AFOX10900
Yes, his defensive numbers have been declining sort of, they have improved from last year, they still are well above average, and his value to the ducks does make it so that other teams are going to have to overpay to get him, they's be perfectly happy keeping him


How do Manson and Carlo’s numbers compare? I used to use evolving hockey but they went to a patreon subscription site and the other numbers I’ve found say they’re basically the same player outside of age.
Jan. 26, 2020 at 7:59 p.m.
#20
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Quoting: Jah1722
How do Manson and Carlo’s numbers compare? I used to use evolving hockey but they went to a patreon subscription site and the other numbers I’ve found say they’re basically the same player outside of age.


I don't have it, I had to ask someone else for Manson's charts a few days ago, but yeah, they're pretty similar last I checked, I would assume that Carlo doesn't have the same QOC (and he probably has better QOT) that Manson does though
Jan. 26, 2020 at 8:01 p.m.
#21
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Quoting: AFOX10900
If they trade him and don't get an RHD back, it will also ruin who knows how many years of competing before they can draft and develop multiple capable RHD men, i mean they already have a young core, a few elite pieces (Zegras, Gibby, likely top 5 pick in 2020) coming up, just not an RHD


That's a fair point. If that's what they need then that's what they need. But that doesn't mean it has to come from this deal, right? Just because you don't get one back from the Leafs doesn't mean you can't find another, even possibly using some of the assets that you get in this deal.
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 8:05 p.m.
#22
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Am I the only person that thinks Bracco isn't worth much.
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 8:06 p.m.
#23
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Quoting: Jah1722
How do Manson and Carlo’s numbers compare? I used to use evolving hockey but they went to a patreon subscription site and the other numbers I’ve found say they’re basically the same player outside of age.


Quoting: AFOX10900
I don't have it, I had to ask someone else for Manson's charts a few days ago, but yeah, they're pretty similar last I checked, I would assume that Carlo doesn't have the same QOC (and he probably has better QOT) that Manson does though


https://mapleleafshotstove.com/toronto-maple-leafs-advanced-statistics/

There's a link to a site with a few decent charts/numbers for players. Obviously none are the be all end all for players, but helpful for finding out what the eye doesn't always see
Jan. 26, 2020 at 8:06 p.m.
#24
Jah1722
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Quoting: AFOX10900
I don't have it, I had to ask someone else for Manson's charts a few days ago, but yeah, they're pretty similar last I checked, I would assume that Carlo doesn't have the same QOC (and he probably has better QOT) that Manson does though


I just feel that leaf fans wouldn’t have any problem trading Liljegren for Carlo even tho Manson is basically the same player.
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Jan. 26, 2020 at 8:09 p.m.
#25
Jah1722
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Quoting: aedoran
Am I the only person that thinks Bracco isn't worth much.


No. He’s not worth much. He’s 22 without a single NHL game. You’d have thought with some of the injuries he’d have at least gotten into a couple games based on how he’s thought of on here.
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