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Why is everyone stuck on Manson

Created by: swinny
Team: 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Feb. 16, 2020
Published: Feb. 16, 2020
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Can we not think outside the Manson - Pesce - Dumba box?
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
2$2,500,000
2$1,000,000
2$2,000,000
UFAYEARSCAP HIT
1$750,000
2$1,500,000
4$5,250,000
Trades
TOR
  1. Hinostroza, Vinnie [RFA Rights]
  2. Hjalmarsson, Niklas ($2,000,000 retained)
Additional Details:
Leafs: Get a great vet defenseman to bridge a gap and see how Liligren develops over the course of the year. A proven stay at home presence.

Get a aolid enough 3rd liner, who can play wing or centre, giving the Leafs options.

Key to the deal: two fold. Getting a legot top 4 defenseman who can fit under cap. Getting a reliable 3rd liner maintaining forward depth.
ARI
  1. Dermott, Travis [RFA Rights]
  2. Johnsson, Andreas
Additional Details:
Yotes: Get a solid 2nd-3rd line LW that improves their offensive depth, which as been an issue all year - with term

Get a very good bottom 6 defenseman with contractual control. Can play both sides giving Arizona options with their blueline.

Key to the deal: young contractual control on useful pieces.
Retained Salary Transactions
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2020
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Logo of the STL
Logo of the WPG
2021
Logo of the TOR
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2022
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
21$83,500,000$83,313,116$0$400,000$186,884
Left WingCentreRight Wing
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$2,250,000$2,250,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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$11,640,250$11,640,250
C
UFA - 4
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$10,903,000$10,903,000
RW
UFA - 5
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,500,000$2,500,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$11,000,000$11,000,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 5
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$6,962,366$6,962,366
RW
UFA - 4
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$3,500,000$3,500,000
LW, C, RW
UFA - 3
$2,000,000$2,000,000
RW, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$3,200,000$3,200,000
RW
UFA - 2
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$1,500,000$1,500,000
LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$1,250,000$1,250,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
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$1,000,000$1,000,000
C
UFA - 1
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$750,000$750,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
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$5,000,000$5,000,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Arizona Coyotes
$3,000,000$3,000,000
LD/RD
NMC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,000,000$5,000,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,250,000$5,250,000
LD
UFA - 4
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,000,000$2,000,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$1,650,000$1,650,000
G
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$894,167$894,167
LD
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$863,333$863,333 (Performance Bonus$400,000$400K)
RD
RFA - 2

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Feb. 16, 2020 at 1:12 p.m.
#1
I hate this team
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Idk I tell ppl that Dumba is not what the leafs need, offensive defenseman that can’t play defense.
Feb. 16, 2020 at 1:14 p.m.
#2
GM Hockeysaurus Rex
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We leave that to our GM.
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Feb. 16, 2020 at 1:36 p.m.
#3
Formerly Jamiepo
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As you hop into the hjalrmarsson box.... this one’s been done too. You’re just a year behind. I like the deal and I agree that Dubas will most likely wait till the offseason to make any big moves.
Feb. 16, 2020 at 1:41 p.m.
#4
tomato
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I will bang the drum for going after an unproven RHD prospect over established veteran with 1 or 2 years left before ufa at 30+ years old. I want a Lundkvist, Soderstrom, Bouchard, Boqvist etc. I would overpay to get a player like this. I absolutely do not want to give up on Dermott or trade his youth for a year or so of an overrated veteran RHD.
Feb. 16, 2020 at 1:58 p.m.
#5
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Quoting: Nohate
Idk I tell ppl that Dumba is not what the leafs need, offensive defenseman that can’t play defense.


It's an awfully hard sell it seems. But Reilly, Sandin amd Holl all move the puck well. Adding another offensive defensman isn't the answer. I while heartedly agree.
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Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:03 p.m.
#6
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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"Why is everyone stuck on Manson?" To answer you question Swinny: It's plague that has infected CapFriendly. For some reason it's the Leafs that have to need/then overpay, for virtually any Dman that can play on the right side.
So the the belief that the Leafs way to deep Cup run is to revamp it's defence. But if Hjamlarsson is the answer to the Leafs....why don't Coyotes keep him for their playoff run? Hammers NTC probably kills the deal anyway.
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Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:07 p.m.
#7
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Quoting: tomato43
I will bang the drum for going after an unproven RHD prospect over established veteran with 1 or 2 years left before ufa at 30+ years old. I want a Lundkvist, Soderstrom, Bouchard, Boqvist etc. I would overpay to get a player like this. I absolutely do not want to give up on Dermott or trade his youth for a year or so of an overrated veteran RHD.


I wouldn't call Hjalmarsson overrated lol. His being traded to Arizona was the beginning of the end of Coach Q in Chicago. The rift began that draft day.

Now ideally, dealing for someone with more term is desirable. Don't get me wrong. I am simply showing that there maybe other options outside Pesce, Dumba and Manson that have the potential to fit the bill.

Truth be told, it's Conor Murphy I would be targeting, and I have posted that as well.

Showing options is all.
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Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:12 p.m.
#8
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Quoting: palhal
"Why is everyone stuck on Manson?" To answer you question Swinny: It's plague that has infected CapFriendly. For some reason it's the Leafs that have to need/then overpay, for virtually any Dman that can play on the right side.
So the the belief that the Leafs way to deep Cup run is to revamp it's defence. But if Hjamlarsson is the answer to the Leafs....why don't Coyotes keep him for their playoff run? Hammers NTC probably kills the deal anyway.


See this as an off season deal. Yotes after getting Hall need to run it out.

Yeah, his NMC may kill the deal, but I would then circle the wagons around Demers. It's a slight downgrade imo, but I think the thought process remains the same

I think we both see Holl as a great #5-6 option. And Liligren has top 2-4 potential. For asset purposes, I think it makes more sense to grab someone to bridge or long term fits in the big picture. I am sure you read my Murphy ACGM. That one makes soooooo much sense for the Leafs.

Very done with the Dumba, Pesce, Manson threads. All are the same deal. All take too much away from.the organizational depth imo.
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:15 p.m.
#9
hey look a squirrel
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I like this but do not want move Dermott.
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Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:16 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: Trickster
I like this but do not want move Dermott.


Rather not either. Not sure if the deal works otherwise.... unless you have something in mind?
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:17 p.m.
#11
hey look a squirrel
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Quoting: swinny
Rather not either. Not sure if the deal works otherwise.... unless you have something in mind?


Doesnt the mileage on Hammer concern you?
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Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:24 p.m.
#12
tomato
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Quoting: swinny
I wouldn't call Hjalmarsson overrated lol. His being traded to Arizona was the beginning of the end of Coach Q in Chicago. The rift began that draft day.

Now ideally, dealing for someone with more term is desirable. Don't get me wrong. I am simply showing that there maybe other options outside Pesce, Dumba and Manson that have the potential to fit the bill.

Truth be told, it's Conor Murphy I would be targeting, and I have posted that as well.

Showing options is all.



Possession metrics and Analytics aren't everything but he has had pretty bad analytics for the last couple years and hes only going to regress from here on out. He isn't worth going out and overpaying for.

https://imgur.com/a/zTHSYGU
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:26 p.m.
#13
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Quoting: tomato43
I will bang the drum for going after an unproven RHD prospect over established veteran with 1 or 2 years left before ufa at 30+ years old. I want a Lundkvist, Soderstrom, Bouchard, Boqvist etc. I would overpay to get a player like this. I absolutely do not want to give up on Dermott or trade his youth for a year or so of an overrated veteran RHD.


Well you're likely not gonna get any of those guys for any combination of Lilja Kap Dermott Barrie 2021 first, Bracco, Johnsson, or Kerfoot
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:28 p.m.
#14
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Quoting: tomato43
Possession metrics and Analytics aren't everything but he has had pretty bad analytics for the last couple years and hes only going to regress from here on out. He isn't worth going out and overpaying for.

https://imgur.com/a/zTHSYGU


He was the best DFD in the league literally last year analytically lmao
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:29 p.m.
#15
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Quoting: swinny
See this as an off season deal. Yotes after getting Hall need to run it out.

Yeah, his NMC may kill the deal, but I would then circle the wagons around Demers. It's a slight downgrade imo, but I think the thought process remains the same

I think we both see Holl as a great #5-6 option. And Liligren has top 2-4 potential. For asset purposes, I think it makes more sense to grab someone to bridge or long term fits in the big picture. I am sure you read my Murphy ACGM. That one makes soooooo much sense for the Leafs.

Very done with the Dumba, Pesce, Manson threads. All are the same deal. All take too much away from.the organizational depth imo.


There is a MASSIVE jump between Demers and Hammer, one was the best DFD in the league as recently as last year (idk about this year, he missed a significant portion of time) and the other is an ok number 4 defense first guy
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:31 p.m.
#16
tomato
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Quoting: AFOX10900
Well you're likely not gonna get any of those guys for any combination of Lilja Kap Dermott Barrie 2021 first, Bracco, Johnsson, or Kerfoot


Well i don't know how accurate that statement is. You dont think Edmonton would trade Bouchard for Kap, Bracco, Dermott, and a 1st? I would try and center the trade around Robertson and one of our useful wingers. i would want to keep Lilljegren at all cost for the same reason i want to get another young RHD. I would do this in the offseason, this would not be a trade deadline deal.
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:33 p.m.
#17
tomato
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Quoting: AFOX10900
He was the best DFD in the league literally last year analytically lmao


i dont knwo bout dat.
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:36 p.m.
#18
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Quoting: tomato43
Well i don't know how accurate that statement is. You dont think Edmonton would trade Bouchard for Kap, Bracco, Dermott, and a 1st? I would try and center the trade around Robertson and one of our useful wingers. i would want to keep Lilljegren at all cost for the same reason i want to get another young RHD. I would do this in the offseason, this would not be a trade deadline deal.


No they don't. Not sure Dubas wants to move that kind of capital either.
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Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:37 p.m.
#19
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Quoting: tomato43
i dont knwo bout dat.


Purely defensively yes, 91st percentile in TOI vs elite comp, 97th percentile in xGA, and 99th percentile in shots against, the two defensive stats and largest piece of context on those, he had the best rate adjusted CA (shots against) by a large margin, and was top 10 in xGA, just don't expect anything offensively, he's well below average at everything offensively (as your chart says)
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:38 p.m.
#20
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Quoting: Trickster
Doesnt the mileage on Hammer concern you?


For a single year? Not really. He is only 32, which is older yes, but not Chara old. Think he could teach Holl, Liligren and Sandin tonnes the same way Hainsey was an influence in Reilly.
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:40 p.m.
#21
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Quoting: AFOX10900
There is a MASSIVE jump between Demers and Hammer, one was the best DFD in the league as recently as last year (idk about this year, he missed a significant portion of time) and the other is an ok number 4 defense first guy


Doesn't this statement support the deal?
Feb. 16, 2020 at 2:41 p.m.
#22
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Quoting: AFOX10900
Purely defensively yes, 91st percentile in TOI vs elite comp, 97th percentile in xGA, and 99th percentile in shots against, the two defensive stats and largest piece of context on those, he had the best rate adjusted CA (shots against) by a large margin, and was top 10 in xGA, just don't expect anything offensively, he's well below average at everything offensively (as your chart says)


Leafs have offense. Not why I make this deal. Shot supression, reducing high danger scoring chances...... these are the reasons it makes sense.

Muzzin and Hjarlmarsson one the ice in the last minute of a one goal game...... that's why.

Happy to see a group that sees the logic👍
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Feb. 16, 2020 at 3:04 p.m.
#23
tomato
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Quoting: AFOX10900
Purely defensively yes, 91st percentile in TOI vs elite comp, 97th percentile in xGA, and 99th percentile in shots against, the two defensive stats and largest piece of context on those, he had the best rate adjusted CA (shots against) by a large margin, and was top 10 in xGA, just don't expect anything offensively, he's well below average at everything offensively (as your chart says)


Okay i concede you were right about last year him being good purely defensively, but that has not carried over to this year. He has atrocious defensive numbers this year even though he benefits from the system that the coyotes play. If Hjalmarsson is even in his late 20's i might consider this trade, but he will be 33 next year. That does not seem like a recipe for success. Some people are mad about resigning Muzzin until he is 34 while he is still producing well all around at 30 1/2, but you want to trade for a 33 year old HJalmarsson whos decline has already set in?
Feb. 16, 2020 at 3:07 p.m.
#24
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Quoting: tomato43
Okay i concede you were right about last year him being good purely defensively, but that has not carried over to this year. He has atrocious defensive numbers this year even though he benefits from the system that the coyotes play. If Hjalmarsson is even in his late 20's i might consider this trade, but he will be 33 next year. That does not seem like a recipe for success. Some people are mad about resigning Muzzin until he is 34 while he is still producing well all around at 30 1/2, but you want to trade for a 33 year old HJalmarsson whos decline has already set in?


A. I don't have his numbers for this year, I find it hard to believe that they're that bad, but idk, B. He has missed most of the year with an injury, he played like 40 mins, then missed 3 months, he's only played probably like 15-20 games
Feb. 16, 2020 at 4:16 p.m.
#25
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Quoting: Trickster
I like this but do not want move Dermott.


Agree with you. Leafs might move forward and that cap space to get a RHD next year...even if it's only a short term player. But trading a young and really needed LHD sorta defeats the purpose of building a long term good defence.
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