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(NJD/TBL) - Coleman for Foote and 2020 1st round pick

Who won the trade?
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Feb. 17, 2020 at 10:20 a.m.
#76
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Quoting: ON3M4N
There's a lot here and none of it had to do with my post. IDK where you're getting a 5 game winning streak from because Boston lost to MTL before facing Detroit in their first match-up of the year. Its great that you're excited about your team, but a 3rd liner isn't the make or break guy in a playoff run.



Detroit vs Boston: i see it in a video last week: Detroit 5 games won - Boston 0 games won - It's a 5 game streak in a speicific matchup. Capisci?Huh?

Here i verified for you, even though it's not important:
09.02.20 NHL Detroit Red Wings Boston Bruins 3 : 1
09.11.19 NHL Detroit Red Wings Boston Bruins 4 : 2
01.04.19 NHL Detroit Red Wings Boston Bruins 6 : 3
02.12.18 NHL Boston Bruins Detroit Red Wings 2 : 4
22.11.18 NHL Detroit Red Wings Boston Bruins 3 : 2(2 : 2)
Feb. 17, 2020 at 10:21 a.m.
#77
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
My argument is that of the players that have a similar contract as him, you're not going to get a player that scrapes the surface of what he brings. The only one I could see is Sean Kuraly, but Boston is a contender and there is no incentive to ship him out. Jordan Weal, Michael Raffl, Luke Glendening, Marcus Sorensen are all replacement level players, which doesn't make them attractive pieces in a market.

It's 100% worth it for them to move a draft pick that is highly plausible conveys this year, as Vancouver is most likely making the playoffs, conveying the draft selection. Highly doubt that Vancouver misses the playoffs and don't make it again next year, let alone win the lottery. They obviously have calculated for this happening, but the probabilities are in Tampa's favor by a wide margin. Nolan Foote is nowhere near a polished prospect; he still has tons of development left. Maybe he becomes a solid second-line winger down the line. My mindset is that you can sacrifice prospects, especially if they are unpolished like Foote, you can move them for known players now. They still own their own 1st round pick, so they can draft another forward prospect with 2nd line potential with their pick.

As for the regret, I would think that teams would regret getting sent home in April because they had to "overpay" on players using draft picks and prospects less than if they got sent home in April because *they didn't make a move*

I disagree with their needs. They don't need more replacement level players; they need someone who brings what Colemans brings. Trading a 3rd round pick for Michael Raffl or Marcus Sorensen, for example, doesn't really advance your chances of going further into the playoffs. Coleman is not a first line player, but you're getting someone who can produce and play a very strong two-way game.

*edit


You are looking at this too narrowly. Teams can retain salary if necessary but besides that, was 1.8M the exact amount TB was looking for? What an arbitrary number? I think the cap was bonus but by no means a prerequisite number.

I'm not advocating they should have went after Jordan Weal, Michael Raffl, Luke Glendening, Marcus Sorensen. These aren't comparables other than in actual cap space. I'm talking about, guys like Joel Armia 2.6M, Calle Jarnkrok 2.0M, Scott laughton 2.3M, etc (Just pulling out names here). I'm pretty sure any one of those players could have done a modest 80% of what Coleman can all while costing their team, at best, that 1st rounder. Heck probably even TB's and not even Van's.

Pretty sure retaining a little on any of those contracts to match that of Colemans if that was such a prerequisite, wouldn't have been that hard knowing a 1st rounder was coming back the other way. Especially in this draft. Your a Philly fan, you wouldn't trade Laughton for a 1st this year? I'm pretty sure that wasn't even a realistic option that could have expected to get for him before today, right?

I am all but certain that if TB offered Vancouver's 1st for Armia, the Habs would have drove him to the airport and packed his bags too. And Armia is no slouch either. Armia is easily a comparable to Coleman, even if Colemans ability was slightly more, the price would be significantly less with Armia than it would be with Coleman.

For what TB wanted and needs, they could have gotten very close to it without paying a premium. They actively paid a premium when there was no need to. That's why this trade is a bad one regardless of if the Lightning win the cup or not. it'll take Coleman, himself, earning that premium by playing worthy of that cost during the playoffs. Then and only then can TB say "He was worth every penny".

Tampa is already one of, if not the best team in the league. Paying this premium had more to do with making people and the team forget about last year than it did making the team better this year IMO.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 11:06 a.m.
#78
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Quoting: F50marco

I am all but certain that if TB offered Vancouver's 1st for Armia, the Habs would have drove him to the airport and packed his bags too. And Armia is no slouch either. Armia is easily a comparable to Coleman, even if Colemans ability was slightly more, the price would be significantly less with Armia than it would be with Coleman.

For what TB wanted and needs, they could have gotten very close to it without paying a premium. They actively paid a premium when there was no need to. That's why this trade is a bad one regardless of if the Lightning win the cup or not. it'll take Coleman, himself, earning that premium by playing worthy of that cost during the playoffs. Then and only then can TB say "He was worth every penny".



Can Armia kill PK super good?

But ye, i wanted Armia too, good recommendation except...
Last time i heard he was a new fan favorite in Canadiens land and Bergevin doesn't like to sell any players. We are also in same division. I thought Montreal wanted to make the playoffs. Same with Philly. So if they say no to this offer, what can you do? ( for a worse player - no way he should pay even more right?)
You have to understand? Rivals don't like to make trades... Montreal doesn't want Tampa to win the cup... Montreal should be still in the race... even though it's a low % after the losing streak...

So BriseBois should have waited 1 more week, when noone is available(in the top category of middle 6 defensive forwards)who we really want, let's say by then Kreider,Toffoli etc... gone), when Bergevin says: "Okay now i'm selling Armia... what's your offer?"
Maybe the offer is only a first by then... then you won't be that happy about selling Armia then... Or if noone bids for Armia... Bergevin just keeps him, if there is no right offer...

Nolan Foote was almost a 2nd round pick... like projected to be 35th... if i remember correctly... So late first + 2nd for Coleman... not that horrible, when it's not rental + super cheap contract. Yes for us 2 mill = much better than 5 mill. For other teams, it's not worth a Nolan Foote those cap savings... We payed assets basically like Toronto unloaded Marleau last year... caphell = not good
Let's just examine Couturier, why do you think he is untouchable? Because of his caphit is not 10 million$ = huge value for philly. So it's impossible to offer anything, which is realistic. GM will say no to every offer. Every team needs steal contracts... We have one in Coleman for 1.5 years... not the worst thing in the world, if he is gonna be useful... New jersey fans loved him... so i'm hopeful he is as good as they say smile

Btw there was a rumour last year Brisebois offered Serg for Risto(50% retained salary). It's easy to see, he already prepared for the caphell back then. That deal didn't work out. We probably wanted a pick or 2 because Serg is better... but we don't know the details... BriseBois philosophy = caphit $/value for assets, rather then selling the core(+sidecore) of the team... i mean if we keep contending it's alright...
We'll see in couple of years, if this was worst trade of deadline or not... it's based on winning the cup, nothing else... however good our roster are, if no cup = no success...

And why can't tampa once in 3 years can lose a trade? We won a lot already over the last years. Only other teams can lose trades? We have a rookie GM anyways, looks like he is not as careful(see Vasi from nowhere contract + this deal). I just hope if we go allin this year.... next year we back to normal... this year i think based on our improvements, we have to go for the cup, if coleman doesn't help... well that's life...frown There can be only 1 winner/year... If this whole core doesn't win a cup... it will go down in history... best team who never won a cup in NHL... look at last 5-6 years results... it's crazy...

Since 2014/2015 season overall results:
1st - Washington Capitals - 468 games-290 wins-131 losses - 627 points - won cup
2nd - Tampa Bay Lightning - 469 games-293 wins-139 losses - 623 points - 1 finals
3rd - Pittsburgh Penguins - 467 games-268 wins-144 losses - 591 points - won cup
4th - Boston Bruins - 470 games-263 wins-144 losses - 589 points - 1 finals
5th - St. Louis Blues - 469 games-267 wins-154 losses - 582 points - won cup

By the end of the year, I'm fairly certain we will be ahead of Capitals... cup winners = good teams over long periods of time...
If we can't do it, need a new coach/retool... Boston just made the finals last year, i wonder why...
Feb. 17, 2020 at 11:42 a.m.
#79
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Quoting: F3ruS
Can Armia kill PK super good?

But ye, i wanted Armia too, good recommendation except...
Last time i heard he was a new fan favorite in Canadiens land and Bergevin doesn't like to sell any players. We are also in same division. I thought Montreal wanted to make the playoffs. Same with Philly. So if they say no to this offer, what can you do? ( for a worse player - no way he should pay even more right?)
You have to understand? Rivals don't like to make trades... Montreal doesn't want Tampa to win the cup... Montreal should be still in the race... even though it's a low % after the losing streak...

So BriseBois should have waited 1 more week, when noone is available(in the top category of middle 6 defensive forwards)who we really want, let's say by then Kreider,Toffoli etc... gone), when Bergevin says: "Okay now i'm selling Armia... what's your offer?"
Maybe the offer is only a first by then... then you won't be that happy about selling Armia then... Or if noone bids for Armia... Bergevin just keeps him, if there is no right offer...

Nolan Foote was almost a 2nd round pick... like projected to be 35th... if i remember correctly... So late first + 2nd for Coleman... not that horrible, when it's not rental + super cheap contract. Yes for us 2 mill = much better than 5 mill. For other teams, it's not worth a Nolan Foote those cap savings... We payed assets basically like Toronto unloaded Marleau last year... caphell = not good
Let's just examine Couturier, why do you think he is untouchable? Because of his caphit is not 10 million$ = huge value for philly. So it's impossible to offer anything, which is realistic. GM will say no to every offer. Every team needs steal contracts... We have one in Coleman for 1.5 years... not the worst thing in the world, if he is gonna be useful... New jersey fans loved him... so i'm hopeful he is as good as they say smile

Btw there was a rumour last year Brisebois offered Serg for Risto(50% retained salary). It's easy to see, he already prepared for the caphell back then. That deal didn't work out. We probably wanted a pick or 2 because Serg is better... but we don't know the details... BriseBois philosophy = caphit $/value for assets, rather then selling the core(+sidecore) of the team... i mean if we keep contending it's alright...
We'll see in couple of years, if this was worst trade of deadline or not... it's based on winning the cup, nothing else... however good our roster are, if no cup = no success...

And why can't tampa once in 3 years can lose a trade? We won a lot already over the last years. Only other teams can lose trades? We have a rookie GM anyways, looks like he is not as careful(see Vasi from nowhere contract + this deal). I just hope if we go allin this year.... next year we back to normal... this year i think based on our improvements, we have to go for the cup, if coleman doesn't help... well that's life...frown There can be only 1 winner/year... If this whole core doesn't win a cup... it will go down in history... best team who never won a cup in NHL... look at last 5-6 years results... it's crazy...

Since 2014/2015 season overall results:
1st - Washington Capitals - 468 games-290 wins-131 losses - 627 points - won cup
2nd - Tampa Bay Lightning - 469 games-293 wins-139 losses - 623 points - 1 finals
3rd - Pittsburgh Penguins - 467 games-268 wins-144 losses - 591 points - won cup
4th - Boston Bruins - 470 games-263 wins-144 losses - 589 points - 1 finals
5th - St. Louis Blues - 469 games-267 wins-154 losses - 582 points - won cup

By the end of the year, I'm fairly certain we will be ahead of Capitals... cup winners = good teams over long periods of time...
If we can't do it, need a new coach/retool... Boston just made the finals last year, i wonder why...


A lot to digest here so i'll keep it short form.

- Armia is a fantastic pk'er. Quite possibly MTL's best along with Danault and Lehkonen.
- Habs fans overrate their players just like every other fan base does so naturally it seems like he's untradeable. I think if you poll'd them now, after what Coleman got, they'd be more than willing.
- Habs will not be in the playoffs nor realistically can catch up. Still hanging on to hope at this point in the season is embarrassing from a managerial POV. Its sell time and they should know this.
- Habs have dealt with Tampa and rivals plenty of times before. (Drouin TB, Plekanec Tor, Gorges BUF, etc) This idea of not trading within division only applies to two teams with similar motives. Habs won't win the cup this year and a low chance next year. Why would they care if Tampa wins it? If the Habs were a contender just like Boston, then yeah why would you trade to another good team your fighting against? That makes sense but if you are out of it and haven't been a good team for a while, why would you care?
- I hate when people play the "He was drafted in the late 1st round so he really was a 2nd rounder" - yeah that also applies to guys like Sebastien Aho who were taken in the second round who should have been 1st rounders. The fact remains that players in the 25-35 range are all similar and are all equally potentially good players. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Tampa, an NHL team with NHL scouts chose him at 27th because they were confident he'd be a good player one day. Whether they take him 27th or 35th makes no difference. (Also saying " 2nd rounder" is too ambiguous. The 32nd pick overall is a 2nd rounder. The 62nd pick overall is a 2nd rounder - Not all "2nd rounders" are created equal)
- As for the rest, its pretty much subjective and conjecture so its not really worth rebutting.

I think people on here are coming to the conclusion that overpaying is the same as losing a trade. Its not.

Its okay to overpay if it gets you what you want and helps you. That doesn't excuse the fact that based on, at least what we know and have to go on as fans, this was more than what should have been necessary to have to pay for what that player provides.

Overpaying does equal losing a trade. Losing a trade does not HAVE to be because you overpaid. They are not contingent on each other. You could have paid less than market value and still lost the trade in the long run.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 11:49 a.m.
#80
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Quoting: F50marco
You are looking at this too narrowly. Teams can retain salary if necessary but besides that, was 1.8M the exact amount TB was looking for? What an arbitrary number? I think the cap was bonus but by no means a prerequisite number.

I'm not advocating they should have went after Jordan Weal, Michael Raffl, Luke Glendening, Marcus Sorensen. These aren't comparables other than in actual cap space. I'm talking about, guys like Joel Armia 2.6M, Calle Jarnkrok 2.0M, Scott laughton 2.3M, etc (Just pulling out names here). I'm pretty sure any one of those players could have done a modest 80% of what Coleman can all while costing their team, at best, that 1st rounder. Heck probably even TB's and not even Van's.

Pretty sure retaining a little on any of those contracts to match that of Colemans if that was such a prerequisite, wouldn't have been that hard knowing a 1st rounder was coming back the other way. Especially in this draft. Your a Philly fan, you wouldn't trade Laughton for a 1st this year? I'm pretty sure that wasn't even a realistic option that could have expected to get for him before today, right?

I am all but certain that if TB offered Vancouver's 1st for Armia, the Habs would have drove him to the airport and packed his bags too. And Armia is no slouch either. Armia is easily a comparable to Coleman, even if Colemans ability was slightly more, the price would be significantly less with Armia than it would be with Coleman.

For what TB wanted and needs, they could have gotten very close to it without paying a premium. They actively paid a premium when there was no need to. That's why this trade is a bad one regardless of if the Lightning win the cup or not. it'll take Coleman, himself, earning that premium by playing worthy of that cost during the playoffs. Then and only then can TB say "He was worth every penny".

Tampa is already one of, if not the best team in the league. Paying this premium had more to do with making people and the team forget about last year than it did making the team better this year IMO.


No, I wouldn't accept this package for Scott Laughton. He's one of Philadelphia's best players, whether he pours it on in the statsheet, he's a player needed for this team to make a push in the playoffs. Beloved in the locker room, hard forechecker and backchecker, plays the PK, good stick, etc. Coleman is basically Laughton but with more offensive skillsets.

I would contend that you would have to pay a "premium" for retained salaries on players the same way you have to pay a "premium" on Coleman because of his contract. I would assume the costs of both of those things negate one another.

Our main disagreement is on player's value outside of Coleman. If you're giving up 80% of a 1st rounder and a slightly above-average prospect, you're not going to get anywhere close to what Tampa needs, which is why I bring up guys like Weal, Raffl, Sorensen, etc. Those guys will probably cost 80% of the return for Coleman, and they aren't going to push the needle come playoff time. Tampa paid for a player who can push the needle. Any player that can do that, given the contract of Coleman has, would have cost the same, in my opinion.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 11:54 a.m.
#81
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Quoting: F3ruS
I don't think we need assets to move any contract. Which player are you thinking is that bad? Even if it's low return, i'm confident we can get back assets for anybody. We don't have 40 year old players with 6 mill $ caphits...


The ones with NTC and NMC deals.
Start with 10 trades rejected by the players.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 12:04 p.m.
#82
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
No, I wouldn't accept this package for Scott Laughton. He's one of Philadelphia's best players, whether he pours it on in the statsheet, he's a player needed for this team to make a push in the playoffs. Beloved in the locker room, hard forechecker and backchecker, plays the PK, good stick, etc. Coleman is basically Laughton but with more offensive skillsets.

I would contend that you would have to pay a "premium" for retained salaries on players the same way you have to pay a "premium" on Coleman because of his contract. I would assume the costs of both of those things negate one another.

Our main disagreement is on player's value outside of Coleman. If you're giving up 80% of a 1st rounder and a slightly above-average prospect, you're not going to get anywhere close to what Tampa needs, which is why I bring up guys like Weal, Raffl, Sorensen, etc. Those guys will probably cost 80% of the return for Coleman, and they aren't going to push the needle come playoff time. Tampa paid for a player who can push the needle. Any player that can do that, given the contract of Coleman has, would have cost the same, in my opinion.


I used Laughton but I guess using a player from a fans team is probably not going to do me any favors as it contradicts your point. Fine use Armia then, works just as good.

Retaining salary is an option, the other option is, you know adding a cap dump to offset.. A la Zucker trade, ROR trade, etc. It doesn't have to be retained salary if that is too much. Aside from that, we're talking about a difference in cap from 1.8m to 2.3m in Laughton's case...... If TB is willing to pay a premium just to get that extra 500k in cap saving, then maybe the structure of the team is the problem, not the trade valuation.

I understand Tampa needs that cap saving and values it but this trade did nothing to help them next year. Only adds more cap needed to be shed come Oct 1st next year.....

I disagree wholeheartedly with your player valuations. The deepest draft in years and 3rd line players are all of a sudden too valuable to lose? In my honest opinion, good teams know when its time to cash in every now and then. Philly is nowhere guaranteed to make the playoffs this year and they have a chance to add a 1st rounder without touching the core of the team? That is a no brainer IMO.

Edit: This is a philosophical difference of opinion. There is no right or wrong answers here. Only opinions.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 12:12 p.m.
#83
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Quoting: F50marco
A lot to digest here so i'll keep it short form.

- Armia is a fantastic pk'er. Quite possibly MTL's best along with Danault and Lehkonen.
- Habs fans overrate their players just like every other fan base does so naturally it seems like he's untradeable. I think if you poll'd them now, after what Coleman got, they'd be more than willing.
- Habs will not be in the playoffs nor realistically can catch up. Still hanging on to hope at this point in the season is embarrassing from a managerial POV. Its sell time and they should know this.
- Habs have dealt with Tampa and rivals plenty of times before. (Drouin TB, Plekanec Tor, Gorges BUF, etc) This idea of not trading within division only applies to two teams with similar motives. Habs won't win the cup this year and a low chance next year. Why would they care if Tampa wins it? If the Habs were a contender just like Boston, then yeah why would you trade to another good team your fighting against? That makes sense but if you are out of it and haven't been a good team for a while, why would you care?
- I hate when people play the "He was drafted in the late 1st round so he really was a 2nd rounder" - yeah that also applies to guys like Sebastien Aho who were taken in the second round who should have been 1st rounders. The fact remains that players in the 25-35 range are all similar and are all equally potentially good players. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Tampa, an NHL team with NHL scouts chose him at 27th because they were confident he'd be a good player one day. Whether they take him 27th or 35th makes no difference. (Also saying " 2nd rounder" is too ambiguous. The 32nd pick overall is a 2nd rounder. The 62nd pick overall is a 2nd rounder - Not all "2nd rounders" are created equal)
- As for the rest, its pretty much subjective and conjecture so its not really worth rebutting.

I think people on here are coming to the conclusion that overpaying is the same as losing a trade. Its not.

Its okay to overpay if it gets you what you want and helps you. That doesn't excuse the fact that based on, at least what we know and have to go on as fans, this was more than what should have been necessary to have to pay for what that player provides.

Overpaying does equal losing a trade. Losing a trade does not HAVE to be because you overpaid. They are not contingent on each other. You could have paid less than market value and still lost the trade in the long run.


Nice info, so Armia is really worthwhile, time to sell him?
Maybe Colorado pays for him 1st rounder... Give a call to Bergevin, if you can haha... someone must know his numbers smile

What if just a random thought:Zucker set the market for good prospect + first?
So even though you think it's like an huge overpayment, you can't do anything after that point for a 1.5 years cheap contract = you either overpay or you don't get him.
Oh ye...I know about fans overrating/ underrating players in general. Everybody wanted Palat to be traded for a bag of pucks. Now noone has any problems with him interesting. Times are changing hahahaa... I told them back then... Palat is not bad for 5 mill $ caphit. Except he had an injury plagued - down year... it happens...

Anyways, we will know more about this trade, if other players get traded. This + Zucker = overpayment... but what if almost every other trade will be same category?
Maybe lot of teams think: "it's our year!"
So last year they didn't think this, cause St. Louis just won from nowhere... now everybody thinks based on that success: "if they won last year, we can win too."
I feel like we are not going to see too many team friendly trades in next 8 days... rentals 0.5 years = cheaper, u can spare the prospect... but i feel like they are gonna be 1st round draft picks for Kreider,Toffoli,Vatanen,Hamonic,TJ Brodie,Manson,Brodin,Martinez,Pageau,Duclair... Buff/Montreal/SJ/Detroit can sell billions of players... i read somewhere online tampa should target Thornton for a cup run... maybe he would come here.. that would be fun... he is still good smile
It's so much fun to have trades though... it was really boring.. i thought the worst trade deadline ever... now maybe it's gonna be good smile someone will overpay for some guys for sure, it's not just us smile
Maybe Colorado's offer was 1st + Timmins for Coleman... or Kaut... there are lots of good prospects there... BriseBois last year skipped buying anyone, so he needed to overcompensate... it's gonna be fun playoffs for sure... cool
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Feb. 17, 2020 at 1:16 p.m.
#84
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Quoting: F50marco
I used Laughton but I guess using a player from a fans team is probably not going to do me any favors as it contradicts your point. Fine use Armia then, works just as good.

Retaining salary is an option, the other option is, you know adding a cap dump to offset.. A la Zucker trade, ROR trade, etc. It doesn't have to be retained salary if that is too much. Aside from that, we're talking about a difference in cap from 1.8m to 2.3m in Laughton's case...... If TB is willing to pay a premium just to get that extra 500k in cap saving, then maybe the structure of the team is the problem, not the trade valuation.

I understand Tampa needs that cap saving and values it but this trade did nothing to help them next year. Only adds more cap needed to be shed come Oct 1st next year.....

I disagree wholeheartedly with your player valuations. The deepest draft in years and 3rd line players are all of a sudden too valuable to lose? In my honest opinion, good teams know when its time to cash in every now and then. Philly is nowhere guaranteed to make the playoffs this year and they have a chance to add a 1st rounder without touching the core of the team? That is a no brainer IMO.

Edit: This is a philosophical difference of opinion. There is no right or wrong answers here. Only opinions.


It really depends on the ownerships mindset with Montreal, but I see your point with Armia, however, he’s not a center.

They don’t really have a cap dump to move out. Maybe Killorn, but that is a contract that usually gets traded during the draft/offseason.

I view Coleman more than a third line center. He’s versatile and can play up and down the lineup. He only costs 1.8M AAV for this season and next, making him more valuable.

Philadelphia is on pace for 98-99 points. Hard to see them moving out an important player for a dice roll on an 18 year old prospect.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 1:16 p.m.
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Quoting: F3ruS
I don't think we need assets to move any contract. Which player are you thinking is that bad? Even if it's low return, i'm confident we can get back assets for anybody. We don't have 40 year old players with 6 mill $ caphits...


Gourde. Maybe Johnson.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 1:18 p.m.
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Quoting: F3ruS
Nice info, so Armia is really worthwhile, time to sell him?
Maybe Colorado pays for him 1st rounder... Give a call to Bergevin, if you can haha... someone must know his numbers smile

What if just a random thought:Zucker set the market for good prospect + first?
So even though you think it's like an huge overpayment, you can't do anything after that point for a 1.5 years cheap contract = you either overpay or you don't get him.
Oh ye...I know about fans overrating/ underrating players in general. Everybody wanted Palat to be traded for a bag of pucks. Now noone has any problems with him interesting. Times are changing hahahaa... I told them back then... Palat is not bad for 5 mill $ caphit. Except he had an injury plagued - down year... it happens...

Anyways, we will know more about this trade, if other players get traded. This + Zucker = overpayment... but what if almost every other trade will be same category?
Maybe lot of teams think: "it's our year!"
So last year they didn't think this, cause St. Louis just won from nowhere... now everybody thinks based on that success: "if they won last year, we can win too."
I feel like we are not going to see too many team friendly trades in next 8 days... rentals 0.5 years = cheaper, u can spare the prospect... but i feel like they are gonna be 1st round draft picks for Kreider,Toffoli,Vatanen,Hamonic,TJ Brodie,Manson,Brodin,Martinez,Pageau,Duclair... Buff/Montreal/SJ/Detroit can sell billions of players... i read somewhere online tampa should target Thornton for a cup run... maybe he would come here.. that would be fun... he is still good smile
It's so much fun to have trades though... it was really boring.. i thought the worst trade deadline ever... now maybe it's gonna be good smile someone will overpay for some guys for sure, it's not just us smile
Maybe Colorado's offer was 1st + Timmins for Coleman... or Kaut... there are lots of good prospects there... BriseBois last year skipped buying anyone, so he needed to overcompensate... it's gonna be fun playoffs for sure... cool


If i'm Montreal, I'm definitely listening on Armia at those prices. They'd be asinine not too.

As for "its our year" so its time to overpay, IMHO that has been proven to be a bad mindset time after time after time. There have been a few that definitely worked out but for the most part, these overpaying rentals, this time with the bonus of 1 extra year aren't that much different from the pending UFA rentals. Players values get so inflated around the TDL and the teams that fall for it for the most part regret a year afterwards.

If you want to have a good laugh, go look at the past months of Devils AGM's who traded Coleman away..... Each and every single one of them was give or take half the value the Devils got. Now I know fans are by no means to be taken seriously about things like this but clearly even the overzealous Devils fan didn't expect this much.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 1:40 p.m.
#87
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
It really depends on the ownerships mindset with Montreal, but I see your point with Armia, however, he’s not a center.

They don’t really have a cap dump to move out. Maybe Killorn, but that is a contract that usually gets traded during the draft/offseason.

I view Coleman more than a third line center. He’s versatile and can play up and down the lineup. He only costs 1.8M AAV for this season and next, making him more valuable.

Philadelphia is on pace for 98-99 points. Hard to see them moving out an important player for a dice roll on an 18 year old prospect.


Just for the record, if Coleman is considered a center, he both sucks at it and doesn't take a lot of faceoffs for a #2-3 centerman anyway for good reason. He's taken as many face offs as Raffl has this year and Weal last year in his past two seasons....... Except his Faceoff % was way lower than both those guys. Anyways that is besides the point. For all intensive purposes Coleman is a winger who can take faceoffs but should be deployed as a winger because he is not nearly good enough to be a reliable centerman in the NHL.

I don't know if you've done the exercise or not but Tampa is in major cap hell next year. Regardless of Coleman or not. A ton of salary needs to be sent out and too many players with NMC and NTC for it to be easy. I get they need low cap players. Its a benefit to have them but this team needs major reconstruction next year regardless and it may mean using assets to purge those players. Something like they just gave away quite handsomely. If I'm a GM of anyone of the 30 other NHL teams, what incentive do I have for helping the TB lightning get under the cap by taking on their players for fair returns? None what so ever. Those players like Johnson and Gourde and Killorn will not only have to waive for the right teams, they'll be had for pennies on the dollar. A slight exaggeration I know but it certainly won't be fair value.

The Laughton example was simply to find a comparable whose close enough to doing what Coleman could bring you. I agree Philly is right in the thick of things so moving out players might send a negative message. Assuming all things were equal and they were where Montreal is now, would you still not trade Laughton for a 2020 1st round pick? you know my position. Yeah 18 year old prospects are rolling the dice sure but many times they are also team defining. Its not like Laughton is guaranteeing Philly playoff success either...

Just as side notion that tickles my fancy for risk taking and betting, Vancouver is currently in the playoffs yes but that hold on a playoff spot is FARRRRR from guaranteed. Its not unthinkable that they miss. If they miss, the pick is transferred to 2021 where it becomes NOT lottery protected. If that were the case, would you not trade a 3rd line center for a non protected 1st rounder in 2021? i would in a second. If a team like Vancouver misses the playoffs this year, whats to say they don't miss again next year. its a tough division and its not unthinkable.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 2:00 p.m.
#88
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Quoting: F3ruS
Okay, if you say they are a threat next year... we'll see the odds in the preseason...
My prediction for 2020/2021 : Columbus = around average % = like 16th in the preseason rankings... idk like 91 points

Just for you i checked this year's predictions: Columbus were:23th, so they just overachieved so far... they were predicted to be 89.2 points...
I still think they won't make the playoffs... But it's a 50-50, we'll see, in that case they wil finish like 18th - close to 23th... still overachieved...


it's not about "odds" hell no one gave them odds to make the playoffs this year.
But people who know the team knew what they had in elvis would rise to the top. Than players like Bennstrom and Tex would play well. Just like they know Foudy will play well.
This is a much better team than you give them credit for. Hell if they were playing in the western conference people would be giving them a harder look.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 2:08 p.m.
#89
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Quoting: F3ruS
But we can add Coleman to the 2nd line, u forgot, than all 3 lines are pretty phyisical.
Let's see: You say we are not phyisical, so can you gave me a rank of physical teams.1 to 31.
In my rough estimation Tampa is right now in top10. On the other Hand Toronto is like Bottom 5. Boston is middle ground like 15th, but i have to think more about that. If you make a list, i'll probably make it as well, if you want.
1-2 is really easy:
1st: St. Louis Blues(our worst matchup this year)
2nd: Washington Capitals(ironacally our 2nd worst)

Hahaha this proves your point... we are matched badly vs physical teams... but u forgot the fact that we are changing... we at least doubled compared to last year the instense+physical games, we are not full attack anymore... you live in the past.... you just don't watch our games...

Maybe you should look up Kassian+one other Edm player vs Cernak incident... who were down both by Cernak on the ice for 5 seconds... Cernak take out 2 guys himself... u probably missed that... yeah if we can add a guy like Ristolainen, it would be good for us... maybe BriseBois will trade for him... The more grit, the better come playoff time, but we definitely trending in the right direction... if we need 1 more year that's ok... we'll see...


you can say that all day. Come playoffs the game gets mean. People want it. The league allows it for "ratings" etc..
You go look at your forward group. It's undersized.
It's not just WSH either. NYI Lee is 6'3 230lbs Nelson is 6'3 215lbs or so, we aren't even talking about their 3rd and 4th liners like Ross who's 6'5, Dal Colle is 6'3
There are teams in the playoffs that are going to lay a pounding on a team that really can't deal with it.
It's not that smaller teams can't win. Clearly you can win playing through it. But when the hell has TB ever proven the ability to do that with it's leadership? It hasn't.
It's why people view them as pretenders. Their best bet on making the SCF is to hope none of the more physical teams out the Metro make it to the ECF and that's if they can get past Boston. But I don't see that happening. Boston can win with 1 line and then just beat them up the rest of the game. That's what they do.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 2:36 p.m.
#90
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That's a lot to give up but if Tampa wins a cup then it's worth it
Feb. 17, 2020 at 3:22 p.m.
#91
get ur corsi up
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1.8 million for the next 2 years for a guy capable of 20 goals a season is pretty good. Sure Tampa is giving up a pretty penny, but this trade isn't as one sided as a lot of people are saying it is.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 4:18 p.m.
#92
Black Lives Matter
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Quoting: Daryl
1.8 million for the next 2 years for a guy capable of 20 goals a season is pretty good. Sure Tampa is giving up a pretty penny, but this trade isn't as one sided as a lot of people are saying it is.


1.8M isn't much, but the Lightning aren't sending any cap back.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 4:47 p.m.
#93
get ur corsi up
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
1.8M isn't much, but the Lightning aren't sending any cap back.


still a bargain to pay a guy less than 2 million and still have him go score 20 goals a season.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 6:14 p.m.
#94
Habs
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The Lightning are cup favourites in my books, so obviously if they win it all, the trade was worth it.

But.

That's a lot to give up for a guy who's probably playing on the 3rd line.
zk97 liked this.
Feb. 17, 2020 at 6:36 p.m.
#95
v5 CBJ GM
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nyaa
Feb. 17, 2020 at 6:37 p.m.
#96
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Quoting: Caufzi
The Lightning are cup favourites in my books, so obviously if they win it all, the trade was worth it.

But.

That's a lot to give up for a guy who's probably playing on the 3rd line.


waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much
Feb. 17, 2020 at 8:01 p.m.
#97
Jimmy Stu
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
Not only is Coleman a fit for a checking line, he can score offensively and is defensively sound. How many players are under contract for under 2M for next season and are available in a trade?


Yes, he's good. I'm not disputing that, I like him. But he's a 3rd line guy on a good team, like Tampa. I'm not comparing who they can get for the contract length. They clearly overpaid for those things and I think it's a mistake.
Maybe it works out and the win the cup, but anything less than a cup is a failed trade for Tampa. So I wouldn't have paid that high of a price Coleman. There would be options this week for a similar player, not saying as good but similar role where they could've kept at least one of those assets.
Feb. 18, 2020 at 1:18 a.m.
#98
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Quoting: drew1871
Coleman has one more year after this one. Then he’s UFA Tampa gets next year too.


Oh whoops, well then I guess that’s a lot better for TBL then haha. Thanks for reminding me!
Feb. 18, 2020 at 9:09 a.m.
#99
Western Champs
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Interim GM is 2 for 2, maybe it's time for an extension
Feb. 18, 2020 at 10:11 a.m.
#100
torontos finest
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Tampa definitely overpaid but they're in a tight spot when it comes to actual money. Coleman is someone who doesn't have a high cap hit and can slot into a top six role if necessary.

Still, New Jersey comes out of this like bandits.
 
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