Forums/Armchair-GM

Canes fans

Created by: NR1203
Initial Creation Date: Feb 26, 2020
Published: Feb 27 at 12:02 am
Team: 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs
Team Explanation
Saw that other Pesce thread and wanted to try and see if this is closer, because he's not worth Nylander or Marner.

This is just to see how highly Canes fans value Pesce
Trades
TOR
  1. Pesce, Brett
CAR
  1. Kapanen, Kasperi
  2. Liljegren, Timothy
  3. 2021 1st round pick (TOR)
Buyouts
  • Mikhail Grabovski: $0
Retained Salary Transactions
  • Phil Kessel: $1,200,000 (15%)
  • Robin Lehner: $1,100,000 (22%)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2020
TOR
TOR
VGK
VGK
TOR
CAR
COL
SJS
STL
WPG
2021
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2022
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
27$81,500,000$97,096,866$0$0-$15,596,866
Left WingCenterRight Wing
TOR
Johnsson, Andreas
$3,400,000
LW
UFA - 4
TOR
Matthews, Auston
$11,634,000
C
UFA - 5
TOR
Marner, Mitchell
$10,893,000
RW
UFA - 6
TOR
Hyman, Zach
$2,250,000
LW
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Tavares, John
$11,000,000
C
NMC
UFA - 6
TOR
Nylander, William
$6,962,366
RW, LW
UFA - 5
TOR
Clifford, Kyle
$800,000
LW
UFA - 1
TOR
Kerfoot, Alexander
$3,500,000
C, LW
UFA - 4
TOR
Horton, Nathan
$5,300,000
RW
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Mikheyev, Ilya
$925,000
LW, RW
RFA - 1
TOR
Spezza, Jason
$700,000
C, RW
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Clarkson, David
$5,250,000
RW
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Engvall, Pierre
$925,000
LW, RW
RFA - 1
TOR
Gauthier, Frédérik
$675,000
C
RFA - 1
TOR
Malgin, Denis
$750,000
RW, C
RFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
TOR
Rielly, Morgan
$5,000,000
LD
UFA - 3
TOR
Ceci, Cody
$4,500,000
RD
UFA - 1
TOR
Andersen, Frederik
$5,000,000
G
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Muzzin, Jake
$4,000,000
LD
UFA - 1
TOR
Barrie, Tyson
$2,750,000
RD
UFA - 1
TOR
Campbell, Jack
$675,000
G
UFA - 1
TOR
Sandin, Rasmus
$894,167
LD
RFA - 3
TOR
Holl, Justin
$675,000
RD
UFA - 1
TOR
Dermott, Travis
$863,333
LD
RFA - 1
TOR
Rosén, Calle
$750,000
LD
UFA - 2
TOR
Marincin, Martin
$700,000
LD
UFA - 1
CAR
Pesce, Brett
$4,025,000
RD
UFA - 5

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Feb 27 at 11:16
#26
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 512
Likes: 158
Quoting: Caniac2000
TROUBA BETTER THAN PESCE? LLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL


where do you have PESce in your d rankings!? id love to know be cause like is said before nylander is a 1/2 rw, pesce is a 3/4 d man right now. nylander also has 2 years on him. and like is aid before i think pesce is a good dman. top 10? no way top 15? still no. not even top 20 so id love to know where hes ranked in your books to get a 23 year old winger whos breaking out
Feb 27 at 11:20
#27
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 512
Likes: 158
Quoting: jmac490
Nylander has had a beyond stellar season. In years prior he could barely drive a line (his shortened season). I could see the argument from your side if you equate the Pec injury of Pesce to that of Dumba (since Dumba hasn't been playing to the same standard as the year prior).

I know Nylander just scored a between the legs goal, but please think less of the guy. He held out for 3 months over 500K a season (I'm still a little bitter about it)


its his 4th year, hes 23 years old, in his age 20 and 21 seasons he put up 60 points. the drive his line comment his nit picking to find something negative about him which is the narrative of nylander always, people hate him just to hate him nylander hate is bogus and ignorant, and i dont care about the goal. the fact that youre still bitter about a guy who held put for his own money over a year ago is the problem more than anything else. hes sure made up for it this year wouldnt you say?
Feb 27 at 11:21
#28
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,075
Likes: 1,399
Quoting: vr1995
where do you have PESce in your d rankings!? id love to know be cause like is said before nylander is a 1/2 rw, pesce is a 3/4 d man right now. nylander also has 2 years on him. and like is aid before i think pesce is a good dman. top 10? no way top 15? still no. not even top 20 so id love to know where hes ranked in your books to get a 23 year old winger whos breaking out


I'd probably put Pesce Top 10 in all honesty. He's that solid as a DMan + his contract is a steal.
I think the Canes have the best D core in the league (Slaavin, Skjei, Pesce, Hamilton, Edmundson, TVR)

Granted the D Landscape has changed as Karlsson/Burns/Suter/Chara aren't as good as they once were.

From a Leafs perspective, I'd maybe put Rielly in the Top 25
Caniac2000 liked this.
Feb 27 at 11:21
#29
Miss the Thrashers
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,717
Likes: 928
Quoting: vr1995
where do you have PESce in your d rankings!? id love to know be cause like is said before nylander is a 1/2 rw, pesce is a 3/4 d man right now. nylander also has 2 years on him. and like is aid before i think pesce is a good dman. top 10? no way top 15? still no. not even top 20 so id love to know where hes ranked in your books to get a 23 year old winger whos breaking out


Pesce is a 1st pairing right hand D man. Nylander is a good 2nd line winger. He's a top 15 - 20 D man in the NHL from an analyical perspective. Probably higher. So yes. Nylander would be the starting price. Then when you add in Pesce's MUCH lower cap hit and term. Again, don't wanna give up Nylander? I understand, you don't get Pesce.
Feb 27 at 11:23
#30
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 512
Likes: 158
Quoting: Caniac2000
Pesce is a 1st pairing right hand D man. Nylander is a good 2nd line winger. He's a top 15 - 20 D man in the NHL from an analyical perspective. Probably higher. So yes. Nylander would be the starting price. Then when you add in Pesce's MUCH lower cap hit and term. Again, don't wanna give up Nylander? I understand, you don't get Pesce.


nylander is a number 1/2 rw, he would be the number 1 rw on more teams than you think the fact you just said hes a good number 2 prvoes you know nothing and your opinion is irrelevant can you name 15 rws better than him?
Feb 27 at 11:25
#31
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 512
Likes: 158
Quoting: Caniac2000
Pesce is a 1st pairing right hand D man. Nylander is a good 2nd line winger. He's a top 15 - 20 D man in the NHL from an analyical perspective. Probably higher. So yes. Nylander would be the starting price. Then when you add in Pesce's MUCH lower cap hit and term. Again, don't wanna give up Nylander? I understand, you don't get Pesce.


name me 15 rws better than nylander
Feb 27 at 11:25
#32
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,075
Likes: 1,399
Quoting: vr1995
its his 4th year, hes 23 years old, in his age 20 and 21 seasons he put up 60 points. the drive his line comment his nit picking to find something negative about him which is the narrative of nylander always, people hate him just to hate him nylander hate is bogus and ignorant, and i dont care about the goal. the fact that youre still bitter about a guy who held put for his own money over a year ago is the problem more than anything else. hes sure made up for it this year wouldnt you say?


Sure. Multiple Leafs are having career years (Nylander, Matthews) but the fact of the matter is that the Leafs don't need more offense. They need players who play defense, who actually want the team to win, who back check.

I get that the team is young. But it's frustrating to see them constantly make mistakes. My favourite Leafs this season are Muzzin and Spezza because they provide that veteran experience and try to show the kids where their faults are. The kids are (in my opinion) pretty selfish.
Feb 27 at 11:29
#33
Miss the Thrashers
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,717
Likes: 928
Quoting: vr1995
name me 15 rws better than nylander


Ovi, Tarasenko, Kuch, Kane, Guentzel, Benn, Marner, Teravainen, Laine, Stone, Panarin, Wilson, Landeskog, Marchessault, Tkachuk, Draisaitl, Hall, just off the top of my head. If you gave me some more time I could come up with more. I know some play both sides, so I named a couple more than 15
jmac490 liked this.
Feb 27 at 11:36
#34
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,075
Likes: 1,399
Quoting: Caniac2000
Ovi, Tarasenko, Kuch, Kane, Guentzel, Benn, Marner, Teravainen, Laine, Stone, Panarin, Wilson, Landeskog, Marchessault, Tkachuk, Draisaitl, Hall, just off the top of my head. If you gave me some more time I could come up with more. I know some play both sides, so I named a couple more than 15


Maybe not Benn anymore, arguable on Teravainen (he's killing it on my fantasy team though), and Marchessault.

But there are a TON of wingers better than Nylander at this given point in time (you also forgot Pasta off of Boston)
Caniac2000 liked this.
Feb 27 at 11:39
#35
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 512
Likes: 158
Quoting: Caniac2000
Ovi, Tarasenko, Kuch, Kane, Guentzel, Benn, Marner, Teravainen, Laine, Stone, Panarin, Wilson, Landeskog, Marchessault, Tkachuk, Draisaitl, Hall, just off the top of my head. If you gave me some more time I could come up with more. I know some play both sides, so I named a couple more than 15


LMAO you have all the time in the world, im not rushing you try to find me primary rws you cant which is why you resorted to adding lws as well. ovi benn guuentzel hall landeskog draisatl are all lw pretty sure panarin plays the majority on left as well. TOM WILSON!?!?!?! ahahahahahahaha the only people i truly agree with from ur list are tarasenko, kuch, kane, marner stone , laine is an argument its no forgeone conclusion some of the lws you mentinoend i also agree are better but were talking about rws, my point is there probbaly arent 15 rws that are better than him thich makes him more than a good 2nd line winger he could play 1st line on many teams.
Feb 27 at 11:40
#36
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 512
Likes: 158
im talking rws, i would also add rantanen and wheeler
Quoting: jmac490
Maybe not Benn anymore, arguable on Teravainen (he's killing it on my fantasy team though), and Marchessault.

But there are a TON of wingers better than Nylander at this given point in time (you also forgot Pasta off of Boston)
Feb 27 at 12:09
#37
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 336
Quoting: Caniac2000
Pesce is a 1st pairing right hand D man. Nylander is a good 2nd line winger. He's a top 15 - 20 D man in the NHL from an analyical perspective. Probably higher. So yes. Nylander would be the starting price. Then when you add in Pesce's MUCH lower cap hit and term. Again, don't wanna give up Nylander? I understand, you don't get Pesce.


If it was Nylander it would be straight up, nothing more from the Leafs... the thing about the Leafs is that they have 2 1st lines and no real 2nd line. If Marner wasn't a Leaf, Nylander would be the #1RW and would have even higher numbers and vice versa. Saying Nylander is a 2nd line RW is like saying Pesce is a 3/4Dman, it's just not true.

Quoting: Caniac2000
Ovi, Tarasenko, Kuch, Kane, Guentzel, Benn, Marner, Teravainen, Laine, Stone, Panarin, Wilson, Landeskog, Marchessault, Tkachuk, Draisaitl, Hall, just off the top of my head. If you gave me some more time I could come up with more. I know some play both sides, so I named a couple more than 15


I think you take Benn, Wilson and Marchessault off this list. You're not going to like this but Teravainen too, Nylander is a better scorer than he is and they're putting up similar point numbers. Maybe even guentzel, his career high is 76 points and Nylander is on track for something quite close to that this year.

Nylander for Pesce is fair, but I think Kapanen, the pick and Liljegren are pretty damn close in value. Kapanen has 25-30 goal ability and given the opportunity I don't see why he can't be as good as Nylander. Great speed and is a good PK'er. Liljegren is a top-4 D prospect, could possibly be playing that role as soon as next season. Picks are magic beans. Just my thought
Feb 27 at 12:12
#38
Miss the Thrashers
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,717
Likes: 928
Quoting: NR1203
If it was Nylander it would be straight up, nothing more from the Leafs... the thing about the Leafs is that they have 2 1st lines and no real 2nd line. If Marner wasn't a Leaf, Nylander would be the #1RW and would have even higher numbers and vice versa.



I think you take Benn, Wilson and Marchessault off this list. You're not going to like this but Teravainen too, Nylander is a better scorer than he is and they're putting up similar point numbers. Maybe even guentzel, his career high is 76 points and Nylander is on track for something quite close to that this year.

Nylander for Pesce is fair, but I think Kapanen, the pick and Liljegren are pretty damn close in value. Kapanen has 25-30 goal ability and given the opportunity I don't see why he can't be as good as Nylander. Great speed and is a good PK'er. Liljegren is a top-4 D prospect, could possibly be playing that role as soon as next season. Picks are magic beans. Just my thought


Picks are magic beans, Lilly was predicted to be in the NHL by now, but still isn't. Kapanen is a nice player, but he's not worth Pesce. A move for him would need to be more than that. Carolina aren't willingly gonna part with their 1RD, so they'd need more. It'd have to start with Nylander, there may need to be an exchange of picks possibly too, but it would be Nylander as the main piece
Feb 27 at 12:19
#39
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 336
Quoting: Caniac2000
Picks are magic beans, Lilly was predicted to be in the NHL by now, but still isn't. Kapanen is a nice player, but he's not worth Pesce. A move for him would need to be more than that. Carolina aren't willingly gonna part with their 1RD, so they'd need more. It'd have to start with Nylander, there may need to be an exchange of picks possibly too, but it would be Nylander as the main piece


As the only piece*, you won't get anything more than Nylander
Feb 27 at 12:20
#40
Miss the Thrashers
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,717
Likes: 928
Quoting: NR1203
As the only piece*, you won't get anything more than Nylander


I don't think Nylander would be the only piece because Pesce wouldn't be the only piece
Feb 27 at 12:24
#41
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 336
Quoting: Caniac2000
I don't think Nylander would be the only piece because Pesce wouldn't be the only piece


Aside from value to the team, how much the earn, etc. Who do you think is the better player?
Feb 27 at 12:28
#42
Miss the Thrashers
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,717
Likes: 928
Quoting: NR1203
Aside from value to the team, how much the earn, etc. Who do you think is the better player?


It's difficult to compare forwards and D men but I'd say Pesce. Looking at the isolated analytics..... it's Pesce ..... Nylander is a hell of a player, but Pesce's game is just more complete.
Feb 27 at 12:43
#43
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,765
Likes: 921
@vr1995 @Caniac2000 im impartial. im not a fan of either team. If the wild (which they did) said dumba starts with nylander, pesce certainly does as well. the order of value in the league is and has always been G > D > C > W. Its incredibly difficult to find EFFECTIVE right shot dmen nevermind GOOD CONTRACT EFFECTIVE right shot dmen. Looking at analytics Trouba vs pesce since you brought up trouba... Trouba CF% 42.84 FF% 42.90 SF% 43.63 GF% 42.95 xgf% 42.44 SCF% 43.03 HDCF% 45.87 etc etc. vs PESCE CF% 47.16 FF% 46.08 SF% 45.80 GF% 45.74 xgf% 43.27 SCF% 47.52 HDCF% 46.96 etc etc. Trouba gets more minutes but pesce is more effective in every single percentage category except for LDGF% and on ice shot %. This is spread across all strengths. Even Strength pesce blows trouba out of the water.
Caniac2000 liked this.
Feb 27 at 12:52
#44
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,765
Likes: 921
lets also remember nylander is only a pp/es forward. pesce is a pk/es dman. one guy is going to score alot per the nature of the team and his position. the other isnt. Nylanders defensive game is subpar. hes not great at backchecking, hes good with the puck on his stick but hes not great in his own zone. where as pesce is the literal opposite on defense. GREAT in his own zone, pretty average on offense.
Feb 27 at 12:54
#45
Miss the Thrashers
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,717
Likes: 928
Quoting: hanson493
@vr1995 @Caniac2000 im impartial. im not a fan of either team. If the wild (which they did) said dumba starts with nylander, pesce certainly does as well. the order of value in the league is and has always been G > D > C > W. Its incredibly difficult to find EFFECTIVE right shot dmen nevermind GOOD CONTRACT EFFECTIVE right shot dmen. Looking at analytics Trouba vs pesce since you brought up trouba... Trouba CF% 42.84 FF% 42.90 SF% 43.63 GF% 42.95 xgf% 42.44 SCF% 43.03 HDCF% 45.87 etc etc. vs PESCE CF% 47.16 FF% 46.08 SF% 45.80 GF% 45.74 xgf% 43.27 SCF% 47.52 HDCF% 46.96 etc etc. Trouba gets more minutes but pesce is more effective in every single percentage category except for LDGF% and on ice shot %. This is spread across all strengths. Even Strength pesce blows trouba out of the water.


Pesce blows most people right out of the water analytically though.....
Feb 27 at 1:28
#46
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,686
Likes: 1,364
@Caniac2000 @vr1995 lets dial this back a bit and straighten things out.
Nylander, on a lot of teams is a #1 caliber RW. Hes a right handed skilled puck moving offensive forward. His drawbacks are is very subpar defensive play and lack of grit. He is however without question the 2nd best RW on Toronto and 4th best forward. Toronto also has a very good amount of forward depth on the right and center side.

Pesce is a #2 caliber defense on most teams (likely #1 RD since the position is so rare). He is a defensive machine. He wont put up a lot of points but he will likely be top 5 line the league for preventing goals as a defense (I say that because Bergeron, Couturier, and Stone would likely be ahead if I include forwards). Hes a right handed shot and PK specialist, essentially prime Vlassic. However, due to Carolinas ridiculous depth on defense (which has been mentioned thousands of times this year) he is the 3rd best defenseman on the team behind Dougie and Slavin.
Feb 27 at 1:34
#47
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 512
Likes: 158
Quoting: jmac490
I'd probably put Pesce Top 10 in all honesty. He's that solid as a DMan + his contract is a steal.
I think the Canes have the best D core in the league (Slaavin, Skjei, Pesce, Hamilton, Edmundson, TVR)

Granted the D Landscape has changed as Karlsson/Burns/Suter/Chara aren't as good as they once were.

From a Leafs perspective, I'd maybe put Rielly in the Top 25


guys no way he is top 10, come on not even close, making it very hard to see both sides of the argument when i see stuff like this. when you are comparing the hockey player , you CANT take contract into consideration thats not fair . ex mcdavid makes 12.5 but barkov makes 6 so barkov is better? it doesnt work like that. imo salvin and dougie are both better, so the canes have 3 d in the top 10 of the league? please
Feb 27 at 1:46
#48
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,765
Likes: 921
Quoting: vr1995
guys no way he is top 10, come on not even close, making it very hard to see both sides of the argument when i see stuff like this. when you are comparing the hockey player , you CANT take contract into consideration thats not fair . ex mcdavid makes 12.5 but barkov makes 6 so barkov is better? it doesnt work like that. imo salvin and dougie are both better, so the canes have 3 d in the top 10 of the league? please


one, in a position thats ACTUALLY COMPARABLE, mcdavid is far better than barkov. That doesnt mean barkov doesnt carry similar value because hes cost effective. In a hard cap league, you could make a case for barkov over mcdavid. You HAVE to take contract into consideration. you could have marchand and pastrnak or mcdavid which would you rather? you can have nylander and marincin or pesce and kapanen which would you rather? its all about being able to build the best team with your existing pieces. Pesce slots right into your top RD pair perfectly. and you only want to give up a middle 6 forward a future first and a bottom 4 d prospect? thats not even close value wise. it would be like the canes offering. dzingel a 1st next year and roland mckeown for rielly.
Caniac2000 liked this.
Feb 27 at 1:49
#49
Miss the Thrashers
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,717
Likes: 928
Quoting: hanson493
one, in a position thats ACTUALLY COMPARABLE, mcdavid is far better than barkov. That doesnt mean barkov doesnt carry similar value because hes cost effective. In a hard cap league, you could make a case for barkov over mcdavid. You HAVE to take contract into consideration. you could have marchand and pastrnak or mcdavid which would you rather? you can have nylander and marincin or pesce and kapanen which would you rather? its all about being able to build the best team with your existing pieces. Pesce slots right into your top RD pair perfectly. and you only want to give up a middle 6 forward a future first and a bottom 4 d prospect? thats not even close value wise. it would be like the canes offering. dzingel a 1st next year and roland mckeown for rielly.


Literally.... thank you
Feb 27 at 1:51
#50
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 512
Likes: 158
Quoting: hanson493
one, in a position thats ACTUALLY COMPARABLE, mcdavid is far better than barkov. That doesnt mean barkov doesnt carry similar value because hes cost effective. In a hard cap league, you could make a case for barkov over mcdavid. You HAVE to take contract into consideration. you could have marchand and pastrnak or mcdavid which would you rather? you can have nylander and marincin or pesce and kapanen which would you rather? its all about being able to build the best team with your existing pieces. Pesce slots right into your top RD pair perfectly. and you only want to give up a middle 6 forward a future first and a bottom 4 d prospect? thats not even close value wise. it would be like the canes offering. dzingel a 1st next year and roland mckeown for rielly.


you can take it into consideration if your building a team but whan you are comparing them as a hockey player, who is a betetr hockey player than the other, it is not fair to take contracts. Pesce is not a top 10 d in this league, if thats where this argument is going to lead to i want no part of it cause its ridiculous. slavin and dougie are both better, and both of those guys arent in the top 10. so stupid. cant even beleive its a discussion rn
 
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