SalarySwishSalarySwish
Forums/NHL

Hawks vs Penguins Best Teams Of Cap Era

Apr. 27, 2020 at 1:02 p.m.
#1
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Edited Apr. 27, 2020 at 10:07 p.m.
I’ve wanted to make this post for a while since the Penguins and Blackhawks are undoubtedly the best 2 two teams of the salary cap era with 3 cups each. I took the best player from both teams’ championship teams and put them against each other. Here’s how they look:

Chicago Blackhawks

Coach: Joel Quenneville

Saad-Toews-Hossa
Sharp-Richards-Kane
Ladd-Vermette-Teravainen
Bickell-Bolland-Versteeg

Keith-Seabrook
Campbell-Byfuglien
Oduya-Hjalmarsson

Crawford
Niemi

Pittsburgh Penguins

Coach: Mike Sullivan

Kunitz-Crosby-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel
Dupuis-Staal-Guerin

Gonchar-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Maatta-Daley

Fleury
Murray

Imagine every player at their peak. Which team wins a 7 game series?
Pens3lieve, Sidstick87 and NoWah49 liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 1:12 p.m.
#2
Thread Starter
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
I’ve wanted to make this post for a while since the Penguins and Blackhawks are undoubtedly the best 2 two teams of the salary cap era with 3 cups each. I took the best player from both teams’ championship teams and put them against each other. Here’s how they look:

Chicago Blackhawks

Coach: Joel Quenneville

Saad-Toews-Hossa
Sharp-Richards-Kane
Ladd-Vermette-Teravainen
Bickell-Bolland-Versteeg

Keith-Seabrook
Campbell-Byfuglien
Oduya-Hjalmarsson

Crawford
Niemi

Pittsburgh Penguins

Coach: Mike Sullivan

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel
Dupuis-Staal-Talbot

Gonchar-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Maatta-Daley

Fleury
Murray

Imagine every player at their peak. Which team wins a 7 game series?


@Pens3lieve @mhockey91 @AFOX10900 @Sebybbq @sidstick87 @NoWah49 @TabooPenguo @PakNation7 @KCNRoyal @pharrow @exo2769 @ChiHawk @SlickWilly @DaBus @MadmanFromMadison @Stan_Bowman @DarthKane @Roviet_Sussia @ForsbergForVezina @kopiino

What’d you guys think?
SlickWilly, exo2769, Pens3lieve and 1 other person liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 2:05 p.m.
#3
Avatar of the user
Joined: Nov. 2017
Posts: 3,188
Likes: 2,123


I think for the sake of how things played out, Im gonna put Shaw there instead of Ladd, swap Oduya and Hammer to the 2nd d line, and replace Buff with Leddy. Im going to go about this by comparing lines.
1st line :
Crosby is clearly the best player in the world, but peak Toews was up for the Selke almost every year, and prime Hossa with early cup runs saad flanks him with two amazing 2 way forwards, so im going to give the slight edge to the HAWKS for that one.
2nd line :
Malkin is the best 2c in the league, and guentzel could definitely be a 1st line player, but peak Kane is Hart and Art Ross Trophy winning forward and his playmaking next to Sharp was uncomparable, so I will call that a DRAW
3rd line (with Shaw instead of Ladd) :
Shaw and Vermette were two gritty guys who could also put the puck in the net, and Teravainen is really coming into his own as a good skill player, but prime Kessel was one of the best pure goal scorers in the game and Hagelin was one of the fastest guys as well, so Ill give the edge to the PENS
4th line :
Bickell was a great power forward before he got vertigo and Versteeg was a good speed and skill guy, but I think Staal and Talbot wouldve been able to shut them down so i think i will give the edge to the PENS
Now the defense here to me is where the difference really is. Letang and Gonchar were two of the better defensemen in the game, but Keith was up for the Norris every year and won it twice, Seabrook wasnt a slouch and came up clutch for the hawks so many times, and Oduya and Hammer were the best shutdown pairing in the league. I think the prime Hawks defense and the ability to consistently roll with whoever was out there just made it so much easier for them, and Keith still played 30 minutes a night. So for the defense, the HAWKS have the advantage
Goaltending was the only real point of contention for the hawks, but if we are talking prime, Crawford only had bottomed out at a .917 and peaked at a .929 percentage between the years of 2012 and 2018, while I dont think I have to argue anything for MAF, so while I will give the overall edge to Fleury, prime Crawford was very good
Overall, I think the defense for the hawks just makes too big of a difference for me to get over, so while it is close and goes to OT in game 7, I think I give it to the Hawks
exo2769 liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 2:13 p.m.
#4
exo2769
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jul. 2015
Posts: 15,536
Likes: 9,582
Edited Apr. 27, 2020 at 2:38 p.m.
Quoting: SlickWilly
I think for the sake of how things played out, Im gonna put Shaw there instead of Ladd, swap Oduya and Hammer to the 2nd d line, and replace Buff with Leddy. Im going to go about this by comparing lines.
1st line :
Crosby is clearly the best player in the world, but peak Toews was up for the Selke almost every year, and prime Hossa with early cup runs saad flanks him with two amazing 2 way forwards, so im going to give the slight edge to the HAWKS for that one.
2nd line :
Malkin is the best 2c in the league, and guentzel could definitely be a 1st line player, but peak Kane is Hart and Art Ross Trophy winning forward and his playmaking next to Sharp was uncomparable, so I will call that a DRAW
3rd line (with Shaw instead of Ladd) :
Shaw and Vermette were two gritty guys who could also put the puck in the net, and Teravainen is really coming into his own as a good skill player, but prime Kessel was one of the best pure goal scorers in the game and Hagelin was one of the fastest guys as well, so Ill give the edge to the PENS
4th line :
Bickell was a great power forward before he got vertigo and Versteeg was a good speed and skill guy, but I think Staal and Talbot wouldve been able to shut them down so i think i will give the edge to the PENS
Now the defense here to me is where the difference really is. Letang and Gonchar were two of the better defensemen in the game, but Keith was up for the Norris every year and won it twice, Seabrook wasnt a slouch and came up clutch for the hawks so many times, and Oduya and Hammer were the best shutdown pairing in the league. I think the prime Hawks defense and the ability to consistently roll with whoever was out there just made it so much easier for them, and Keith still played 30 minutes a night. So for the defense, the HAWKS have the advantage
Goaltending was the only real point of contention for the hawks, but if we are talking prime, Crawford only had bottomed out at a .917 and peaked at a .929 percentage between the years of 2012 and 2018, while I dont think I have to argue anything for MAF, so while I will give the overall edge to Fleury, prime Crawford was very good
Overall, I think the defense for the hawks just makes too big of a difference for me to get over, so while it is close and goes to OT in game 7, I think I give it to the Hawks


How Leddy? I'd definatley take Big Buff. He was HUGE in their playoff series. Leddy was a healthy scratch. Buff is also a big X factor that only 1 team has. PIT doesn't have anything close to Buff's size and speed.

I do agree with the overall analysis, but also 100% understand I'm bias. That defensive difference is just too huge. Gonchar's best was with WAS (not PIT) and still never won (or got 2nd or 3rd) the Norris.

I'd give the line 2 edge to PIT. Malkin's also a Hart/Ross winner and Jake's playoffs are UNREAL.

Real quick though...@mitchmarnerelite Are we talking about Bill Guerin? I think you can find other RWers especially @ #1RW.
ChiHawk liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 2:50 p.m.
#5
Below Market Value
Avatar of the user
Joined: Nov. 2015
Posts: 1,426
Likes: 1,324
Just ranking the individual teams (note I'm only looking at their regular season numbers, I figured that would provide the largest sample size to determine actual talent of the teams):

1. 16-17 Penguins, excellent offense and PP, pretty poor defense and PK but made up with very good goaltending
2. 09-10 Blackhawks, one of the best 5v5 teams of the cap era, middling special teams, porous goaltending prevent them from taking the top spot
3. 12-13 Blackhawks, probably the best defensive team of these six both 5v5 and on the PK, offense and PP left some to be desired, solid goaltending
4. 15-16 Penguins, another great 5v5 team with solid special teams, but pretty meh goaltending
5. 14-15 Blackhawks, the best goaltending team listed here, pretty decent all-around at 5v5 and special teams with no one area (besides goaltending) that stands out
6. 08-09 Penguins, pretty weak goaltending, least impressive 5v5 team, decent special teams
exo2769 liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 2:58 p.m.
#6
CHI NYI
Avatar of the user
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,661
Likes: 2,253


What a series that would be....

I should preface this with the fact that I missed everything from like 2014-2017, so I'm only going off of what I've seen, which is far from everything. I have gone back and watched a lot of old games though so that's worth something....

I think I like Chicago's defense better. The Maatta-Daley pairing is by no means bad (former/current Hawks themselves lol), but I think 1-6 Chicago has the advantage there. Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Byfuglien were all capable of playing on a top pair in their prime. I'm not sure you could say the same for Schultz. I know that's nitpicking, but that's the game we're playing here lol.

I think Pittsburgh's forward group is faster. Sheary, Rust, Guentzel, Hagelin; their games revolve around speed. Guys like Bickell, Bolland and Ladd were always more of the physical type. Its hard to tell how those two styles would mesh, especially when theyre totally optimized the way they are in these rosters, but I'd like to think that their skating gives Pittsburgh the edge there.

Pittsburgh also gets the edge down the middle, Crosby and Malkin alone best anything Chicago has. From 2013-15 Chicago had a weird mix of Michal Handzus, Andrew Shaw, Marcus Kruger and eventually Richards at 2C and while Malkin is unique as far as 2nd line centers go, you'd like to have someone a little better than 34 year old Brad Richards in that spot (prime Richards you'd obviously take there, but he didn't play for Chicago then so I'm not sure if I can use him there). Even then, its hard to bet against Crosby and Malkin.

Goaltending is impossible, but I'm gonna say Pittsburgh just because I think Crow and Fleury are even, while "prime" Murray is better than prime Niemi. I know Fleury has had some famous meltdowns in the playoffs but I honestly think 2017 made up for that, they probably don't win that year if he wasn't as good as he was. Crawford was a little more consistent and always gave the Hawks a chance to win games in the playoffs, but there have been series Fleury's taken over and I don't know if I can say the same for Crow, in playoff games of his that I've watched.

I think in a 7 game series I'd take Pittsburgh. They're faster, have better depth and slighty better goaltending. But that series would be an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object, its so hard to tell who would come out on top.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 3:05 p.m.
#7
CHI NYI
Avatar of the user
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,661
Likes: 2,253
Quoting: exo2769
How Leddy? I'd definatley take Big Buff. He was HUGE in their playoff series. Leddy was a healthy scratch. Buff is also a big X factor that only 1 team has. PIT doesn't have anything close to Buff's size and speed.

I do agree with the overall analysis, but also 100% understand I'm bias. That defensive difference is just too huge. Gonchar's best was with WAS (not PIT) and still never won (or got 2nd or 3rd) the Norris.

I'd give the line 2 edge to PIT. Malkin's also a Hart/Ross winner and Jake's playoffs are UNREAL.

Real quick though...@mitchmarnerelite Are we talking about Bill Guerin? I think you can find other RWers especially @ #1RW.


I'd take Buff on the blueline too, but you could make an argument for Leddy. Amazing skating, great in transition. Definitely not a top-pairing like like Byfuglien (ask Isles fans), but he's definitely a viable option. Leddy, for better or worse, was never really given the chance to be a difference maker in the Blackhawks Cups runs, but I think his skillset would be valuable, especially in a fast, offensive series vs. Pittsburgh.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 3:35 p.m.
#8
Roviet_Sussia
Avatar of the user
Joined: Apr. 2019
Posts: 509
Likes: 118


Pittsburgh runs a better powerplay, but Chicago runs a better penalty kill; special teams: wash.

The Penguin's group is faster, but Chicago has a better two-way presence throughout their lineup; 5-on-5 play: Chicago

Luck/huge moments are everything in a playoff series, and Pittsburgh managed to manufacture luck better than Chicago, which I've always related to the speed of their group; luck and bounces: Pittsburgh

But ultimately, Pittsburgh would win the series because of prime Fleury (watching more recent Vegas playoff series reminded me of that). Sometimes you just can't beat that; goaltending: Pittsburgh
exo2769, Pens3lieve, ForsbergForVezina and 1 other person liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 3:39 p.m.
#9
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2015
Posts: 15,921
Likes: 6,980
its probably easier to compare actual championship teams rather than this hypothetical roaster because a lot of these players haven't played in their prime together before. based on this though, id say Pittsburgh had better forwards, Chicago had better D, and Pittsburgh probably had better goaltending. if we are taking each player during their "absolute prime" Pittsburghs has 6 forwards who would be at around a PPG or higher(best seasons for Crosby, malkin, kessel, Kunitz, rust, Guentzel). it would be 7 if you include neal though he never won a cup in Pittsburgh. thats absolutely insane. Chicago had 4 guys with toews, Kane, hossa, sharp all producing at around a ppg output or above. still very impressive. Pittsburghs forward depth is ridiculous though with 2011 selke nominee Jordan staal on the fourth line. pens forwards are better. Chicago had a pretty stacked D core led by Keith and Seabrook. Though gonchar and Letang are nothing to snuff at.
exo2769 and Pens3lieve liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 3:43 p.m.
#10
Hockey IQ
Avatar of the user
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 2,981
Likes: 1,467
Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
I’ve wanted to make this post for a while since the Penguins and Blackhawks are undoubtedly the best 2 two teams of the salary cap era with 3 cups each. I took the best player from both teams’ championship teams and put them against each other. Here’s how they look:

Chicago Blackhawks

Coach: Joel Quenneville

Saad-Toews-Hossa
Sharp-Richards-Kane
Ladd-Vermette-Teravainen
Bickell-Bolland-Versteeg

Keith-Seabrook
Campbell-Byfuglien
Oduya-Hjalmarsson

Crawford
Niemi

Pittsburgh Penguins

Coach: Mike Sullivan

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel
Dupuis-Staal-Talbot

Gonchar-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Maatta-Daley

Fleury
Murray

Imagine every player at their peak. Which team wins a 7 game series?


PIT in 6.
CHI may have a overall better D core, but the pens forward depth and MM/MAF(peak) give them the advantage.
I take Sid and Genos lines over the hawks 1/2 and HBK would decimate that CHI third line.
The pens speed would be evident.
I do think a better RW could be found—like Horny maybe.
Question-all these players had to have won a cup with PIT/CHI right? BC I would have Zucker there if not. And is Rust .5GPG Rust or 17-goal Rust?
And I agree with @mhockey91 that it would be a better comparison to just compare season rosters against each other. Meshing it all together is fine though.
mhockey91 and exo2769 liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 3:49 p.m.
#11
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2015
Posts: 15,921
Likes: 6,980
Quoting: Pens3lieve
PIT in 6.
CHI may have a overall better D core, but the pens forward depth and MM/MAF(peak) give them the advantage.
I take Sid and Genos lines over the hawks 1/2 and HBK would decimate that CHI third line.
The pens speed would be evident.
I do think a better RW could be found—like Horny maybe.
Question-all these players had to have won a cup with PIT/CHI right? BC I would have Zucker there if not. And is Rust .5GPG Rust or 17-goal Rust?
And I agree with @mhockey91 that it would be a better comparison to just compare season rosters against each other. Meshing it all together is fine though.


exactly. like its very vague. in this argument can I use rust from the 2019-20 season, or does it have to be during the 2016 or 2017 cup run, because it changes everything a lot. based on PURE PEAKs of players on each team, Pittsburgh would win. Also I dont count Byuffs / lead's peak in Winnipeg because they didnt even play for Chicago anymore. in those cases, I took the best seasons they had on Chicago
Pens3lieve and exo2769 liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 4:09 p.m.
#12
exo2769
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jul. 2015
Posts: 15,536
Likes: 9,582
This is all for fun! I also agree with @mhockey91 that it's easier to compare true teams.

I just see the 2-way play of CHI, the gap between the defenses is so large, and I'd give the edge to Crow between He and Fleury. being too great of an up hill battle. Toews shut down Stamkos to zero points in 2015. If he can do that to Stamkos...he can do it to Malkin. Maybe not Crosby, but he's not winning a series by himself.

for the goaltending. In all sincerity, am I missing something? ***If we're talking the specific championship years*** ...Fleury wasn't all that great. He was essentially Matt Murray's backup for 2 of his cups and far from his career year in 08/09. Also, his best years of his career are with Vegas. #7 and #8 in Vezina voting with PIT, bu #4 and #5 in voting with Vegas. Crow #5, #6, #8 with the Hawks. And should have won the Smythe in 2015. OR are we saying that Murray would be PIT's goalie.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 6:55 p.m.
#13
Avatar of the user
Joined: Nov. 2017
Posts: 3,188
Likes: 2,123
Quoting: mhockey91
its probably easier to compare actual championship teams rather than this hypothetical roaster because a lot of these players haven't played in their prime together before. based on this though, id say Pittsburgh had better forwards, Chicago had better D, and Pittsburgh probably had better goaltending. if we are taking each player during their "absolute prime" Pittsburghs has 6 forwards who would be at around a PPG or higher(best seasons for Crosby, malkin, kessel, Kunitz, rust, Guentzel). it would be 7 if you include neal though he never won a cup in Pittsburgh. thats absolutely insane. Chicago had 4 guys with toews, Kane, hossa, sharp all producing at around a ppg output or above. still very impressive. Pittsburghs forward depth is ridiculous though with 2011 selke nominee Jordan staal on the fourth line. pens forwards are better. Chicago had a pretty stacked D core led by Keith and Seabrook. Though gonchar and Letang are nothing to snuff at.


I agree that offensively it isnt particularly close, but Chicago's success was built around their defensive success and have Kane drive the offense, which is why I think it would be very close to call. Toews consistently was a top 5 selke guy, Hossa was an amazing two way player who excelled at stealing the puck in the neutral zone, Saad is a two way power forward, and their bottom two lines were always shutdown lines. And of course as you said the stacked top 4. I just think they are built too different to evaluate it on a strictly numbers basis. It all comes down to what you value more, offense or defense.
mhockey91 liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 7:12 p.m.
#14
Thread Starter
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Quoting: SlickWilly
I think for the sake of how things played out, Im gonna put Shaw there instead of Ladd, swap Oduya and Hammer to the 2nd d line, and replace Buff with Leddy. Im going to go about this by comparing lines.
1st line :
Crosby is clearly the best player in the world, but peak Toews was up for the Selke almost every year, and prime Hossa with early cup runs saad flanks him with two amazing 2 way forwards, so im going to give the slight edge to the HAWKS for that one.
2nd line :
Malkin is the best 2c in the league, and guentzel could definitely be a 1st line player, but peak Kane is Hart and Art Ross Trophy winning forward and his playmaking next to Sharp was uncomparable, so I will call that a DRAW
3rd line (with Shaw instead of Ladd) :
Shaw and Vermette were two gritty guys who could also put the puck in the net, and Teravainen is really coming into his own as a good skill player, but prime Kessel was one of the best pure goal scorers in the game and Hagelin was one of the fastest guys as well, so Ill give the edge to the PENS
4th line :
Bickell was a great power forward before he got vertigo and Versteeg was a good speed and skill guy, but I think Staal and Talbot wouldve been able to shut them down so i think i will give the edge to the PENS
Now the defense here to me is where the difference really is. Letang and Gonchar were two of the better defensemen in the game, but Keith was up for the Norris every year and won it twice, Seabrook wasnt a slouch and came up clutch for the hawks so many times, and Oduya and Hammer were the best shutdown pairing in the league. I think the prime Hawks defense and the ability to consistently roll with whoever was out there just made it so much easier for them, and Keith still played 30 minutes a night. So for the defense, the HAWKS have the advantage
Goaltending was the only real point of contention for the hawks, but if we are talking prime, Crawford only had bottomed out at a .917 and peaked at a .929 percentage between the years of 2012 and 2018, while I dont think I have to argue anything for MAF, so while I will give the overall edge to Fleury, prime Crawford was very good
Overall, I think the defense for the hawks just makes too big of a difference for me to get over, so while it is close and goes to OT in game 7, I think I give it to the Hawks


Wow that is some great analysis I agree on pretty much everything. My hypothesis would be Chicago winning in 5 or 6. They are very at the forward position & in goal while Chicago has a huge edge on defense. The thing that gets complicated is trying to interpret the matchups. You’d probably want Toews’ line & Oduya-Hjalmarsson to match up against Crosby & the Penguins would want Staal’s line to match up against Kane. Maybe I could swap Dumoulin & Gonchar but the Pens don’t really have a shutdown pairing, so if we’re talking matchups, that’s where Chicago really has the edge.
SlickWilly liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 7:19 p.m.
#15
Thread Starter
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Quoting: exo2769
How Leddy? I'd definatley take Big Buff. He was HUGE in their playoff series. Leddy was a healthy scratch. Buff is also a big X factor that only 1 team has. PIT doesn't have anything close to Buff's size and speed.

I do agree with the overall analysis, but also 100% understand I'm bias. That defensive difference is just too huge. Gonchar's best was with WAS (not PIT) and still never won (or got 2nd or 3rd) the Norris.

I'd give the line 2 edge to PIT. Malkin's also a Hart/Ross winner and Jake's playoffs are UNREAL.

Real quick though...@mitchmarnerelite Are we talking about Bill Guerin? I think you can find other RWers especially @ #1RW.


Yes I agree with you. Chicago has like 4 number 1 defensemen here. I think Gonchar at his peak was at a similar level to Letang, so obviously no where near Keith. You’re right about the second line. As for Guerin, I think he was a good top 6 Forward in his prime & he still played that role during the cup run. I could’ve used Patric Hornqvist instead, I just forgot about him lol.
exo2769 liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 7:25 p.m.
#16
Thread Starter
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Quoting: ForsbergForVezina
What a series that would be....

I should preface this with the fact that I missed everything from like 2014-2017, so I'm only going off of what I've seen, which is far from everything. I have gone back and watched a lot of old games though so that's worth something....

I think I like Chicago's defense better. The Maatta-Daley pairing is by no means bad (former/current Hawks themselves lol), but I think 1-6 Chicago has the advantage there. Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Byfuglien were all capable of playing on a top pair in their prime. I'm not sure you could say the same for Schultz. I know that's nitpicking, but that's the game we're playing here lol.

I think Pittsburgh's forward group is faster. Sheary, Rust, Guentzel, Hagelin; their games revolve around speed. Guys like Bickell, Bolland and Ladd were always more of the physical type. Its hard to tell how those two styles would mesh, especially when theyre totally optimized the way they are in these rosters, but I'd like to think that their skating gives Pittsburgh the edge there.

Pittsburgh also gets the edge down the middle, Crosby and Malkin alone best anything Chicago has. From 2013-15 Chicago had a weird mix of Michal Handzus, Andrew Shaw, Marcus Kruger and eventually Richards at 2C and while Malkin is unique as far as 2nd line centers go, you'd like to have someone a little better than 34 year old Brad Richards in that spot (prime Richards you'd obviously take there, but he didn't play for Chicago then so I'm not sure if I can use him there). Even then, its hard to bet against Crosby and Malkin.

Goaltending is impossible, but I'm gonna say Pittsburgh just because I think Crow and Fleury are even, while "prime" Murray is better than prime Niemi. I know Fleury has had some famous meltdowns in the playoffs but I honestly think 2017 made up for that, they probably don't win that year if he wasn't as good as he was. Crawford was a little more consistent and always gave the Hawks a chance to win games in the playoffs, but there have been series Fleury's taken over and I don't know if I can say the same for Crow, in playoff games of his that I've watched.

I think in a 7 game series I'd take Pittsburgh. They're faster, have better depth and slighty better goaltending. But that series would be an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object, its so hard to tell who would come out on top.


Excellent analysis, all very fair points. I agree with you, Chicago’s defense is way better. They have so many top pairing players. Pittsburgh does probably have the edge on the wing with their speed & you are allowed to use prime Richards in this scenario. I like your take on Fleury. Indeed he’s had monumental collapses & hasn’t been the most consistent but when he’s been at his best, he’s been able to steal games & series like in 2017. I wish he played like that more often but they still won 3 cups so can’t really complain.
ForsbergForVezina liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 7:29 p.m.
#17
Thread Starter
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Quoting: Roviet_Sussia
Pittsburgh runs a better powerplay, but Chicago runs a better penalty kill; special teams: wash.

The Penguin's group is faster, but Chicago has a better two-way presence throughout their lineup; 5-on-5 play: Chicago

Luck/huge moments are everything in a playoff series, and Pittsburgh managed to manufacture luck better than Chicago, which I've always related to the speed of their group; luck and bounces: Pittsburgh

But ultimately, Pittsburgh would win the series because of prime Fleury (watching more recent Vegas playoff series reminded me of that). Sometimes you just can't beat that; goaltending: Pittsburgh


Very interesting about the lucky bounces & momentum swings, I didn’t think about it. You are right, the Penguins forwards’ speed & skating will probably allow them to create more space & change the tempo of the game, therefore, they are more likely to get lucky. You’re right about Fleury. At his best, he is a huge goaltender.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 7:53 p.m.
#18
Hockey God Genius
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2015
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 810
Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
I’ve wanted to make this post for a while since the Penguins and Blackhawks are undoubtedly the best 2 two teams of the salary cap era with 3 cups each. I took the best player from both teams’ championship teams and put them against each other. Here’s how they look:

Chicago Blackhawks

Coach: Joel Quenneville

Saad-Toews-Hossa
Sharp-Richards-Kane
Ladd-Vermette-Teravainen
Bickell-Bolland-Versteeg

Keith-Seabrook
Campbell-Byfuglien
Oduya-Hjalmarsson

Crawford
Niemi

Pittsburgh Penguins

Coach: Mike Sullivan

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel
Dupuis-Staal-Talbot

Gonchar-Letang
Dumoulin-Schultz
Maatta-Daley

Fleury
Murray

Imagine every player at their peak. Which team wins a 7 game series?


The Pens def win it in 5 or 6 games.... I always wanted a Pens - CHI Cup Finals, would have been one of the best Cup finals ever during each of 1 of their runs
Pens3lieve liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 7:57 p.m.
#19
Hockey God Genius
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2015
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 810


Would have loved to watch Sid abuse Toews for 5 or 6 games until Pens won.
Then Geno would have dominated any #2 Center of CHI.

Plus my god Gonch & Letang pairing with both in prime? My god, what a Nitemare that would have been for teams
Pens3lieve liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 8:08 p.m.
#20
Thread Starter
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Quoting: SlickWilly
I agree that offensively it isnt particularly close, but Chicago's success was built around their defensive success and have Kane drive the offense, which is why I think it would be very close to call. Toews consistently was a top 5 selke guy, Hossa was an amazing two way player who excelled at stealing the puck in the neutral zone, Saad is a two way power forward, and their bottom two lines were always shutdown lines. And of course as you said the stacked top 4. I just think they are built too different to evaluate it on a strictly numbers basis. It all comes down to what you value more, offense or defense.


Quoting: mhockey91
its probably easier to compare actual championship teams rather than this hypothetical roaster because a lot of these players haven't played in their prime together before. based on this though, id say Pittsburgh had better forwards, Chicago had better D, and Pittsburgh probably had better goaltending. if we are taking each player during their "absolute prime" Pittsburghs has 6 forwards who would be at around a PPG or higher(best seasons for Crosby, malkin, kessel, Kunitz, rust, Guentzel). it would be 7 if you include neal though he never won a cup in Pittsburgh. thats absolutely insane. Chicago had 4 guys with toews, Kane, hossa, sharp all producing at around a ppg output or above. still very impressive. Pittsburghs forward depth is ridiculous though with 2011 selke nominee Jordan staal on the fourth line. pens forwards are better. Chicago had a pretty stacked D core led by Keith and Seabrook. Though gonchar and Letang are nothing to snuff at.


Quoting: Pens3lieve
PIT in 6.
CHI may have a overall better D core, but the pens forward depth and MM/MAF(peak) give them the advantage.
I take Sid and Genos lines over the hawks 1/2 and HBK would decimate that CHI third line.
The pens speed would be evident.
I do think a better RW could be found—like Horny maybe.
Question-all these players had to have won a cup with PIT/CHI right? BC I would have Zucker there if not. And is Rust .5GPG Rust or 17-goal Rust?
And I agree with @mhockey91 that it would be a better comparison to just compare season rosters against each other. Meshing it all together is fine though.


Quoting: exo2769
This is all for fun! I also agree with @mhockey91 that it's easier to compare true teams.

I just see the 2-way play of CHI, the gap between the defenses is so large, and I'd give the edge to Crow between He and Fleury. being too great of an up hill battle. Toews shut down Stamkos to zero points in 2015. If he can do that to Stamkos...he can do it to Malkin. Maybe not Crosby, but he's not winning a series by himself.

for the goaltending. In all sincerity, am I missing something? ***If we're talking the specific championship years*** ...Fleury wasn't all that great. He was essentially Matt Murray's backup for 2 of his cups and far from his career year in 08/09. Also, his best years of his career are with Vegas. #7 and #8 in Vezina voting with PIT, bu #4 and #5 in voting with Vegas. Crow #5, #6, #8 with the Hawks. And should have won the Smythe in 2015. OR are we saying that Murray would be PIT's goalie.


So I picked players who had a relatively significant impact for any one of their team’s cup run but you can rate those players based on how they did at their peak, even if it wasn’t on the team they won with. It’s a bit confusing I will admit. Honestly, I could’ve just picked the best players from both teams from throughout the salary cap era, then the teams could’ve looked like this:

Hawks:

Sharp-Toews-Hossa
Panarin-Richards-Kane
Teravainen-Vermette-Saad
Laad-Amisimov-Shaw

Keith-Seabrook
Oduya-Hjalmarsson
Campbell-Oduya

Crawford
Niemi

Pens:

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Neal-Malkin-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Staal-Rust
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel

Gonchar-Letang
Dumoulin-Niskanen
Martin-Schultz

Fleury
Murray

Malkin is better than Stamkos for sure but I think Toews can shut down anyone. He was that good in his prime. The issue with Fleury is that he hasn’t been good in any of the playoff runs other than 2016-17 when he had a decent GSAA.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 8:14 p.m.
#21
Hockey God Genius
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2015
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 810


I would go:

Guentzel - Goat87 - Billy G
Kunitz - Geno - Kessel
Duper - Stall - Horny
Hags - Talbo - Rusty - (Talbo mite have been my fav Pen every, loved that dude)
Bones / Cookie

Dumo - Letang
Orpik - Gonch
Scuds - Schultzy - (Scuds was the most amazing Defensive Dman in 09')
Mattaa / Daley

Flower
Murr's
Apr. 27, 2020 at 9:05 p.m.
#22
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 1,433
No one have put Pascal Dupuis in there! He was very useful in is time in Pens uniform. Could play anywhere in the line up, was good in defensive attribution and was a hard worker. On of the best utility player they had in that stretch.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 10:16 p.m.
#23
Thread Starter
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Quoting: Sidstick87
I would go:

Guentzel - Goat87 - Billy G
Kunitz - Geno - Kessel
Duper - Stall - Horny
Hags - Talbo - Rusty - (Talbo mite have been my fav Pen every, loved that dude)
Bones / Cookie

Dumo - Letang
Orpik - Gonch
Scuds - Schultzy - (Scuds was the most amazing Defensive Dman in 09')
Mattaa / Daley

Flower
Murr's


I loved Talbot too he was a defensive specialist & a master of scoring shorthanded goals. I was so disappointed Pens couldn’t keep him in the 2011 offseason. Scuderi’s career didn’t end off so well but he was a great shutdown defenseman who played in the top pairing with Doughty during LAK’s Best year.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 10:16 p.m.
#24
Thread Starter
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 5,011
Likes: 1,636
Quoting: Sebybbq
No one have put Pascal Dupuis in there! He was very useful in is time in Pens uniform. Could play anywhere in the line up, was good in defensive attribution and was a hard worker. On of the best utility player they had in that stretch.


I agree I included him on the fourth line.
Pharow liked this.
Apr. 27, 2020 at 10:24 p.m.
#25
Banned
Avatar of the user
Joined: Jun. 2019
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 1,433
Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
I agree I included him on the fourth line.


The Pens have had so much great depth players over the past 15 years. I remember in their first cup Graig Adams was playinh a major role, then they had guy like Cullen, Hagelin, Bonino, Dupuis, Cooke, Talbot,
 
Reply
To create a post please Login or Register
Question:
Options:
Add Option
Submit Poll