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can canada get more nhl or ahl teams

Created by: Saskleaf
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Initial Creation Date: May 19, 2020
Published: May 19, 2020
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Is it crazy to think Canada get a new nhl team or ahl team? If we do, I think Quebec is the most likely. Next, an ontario team, such as toronto 2.0, Hamilton or Kitchener. And if a new team does not go to one of those 2 provinces, it goes to saskcatchewan, likely saskatoon. Then maybe the Maritimes, Halifax or ST johns. AHL teams might be more likely than nhl, I think. Ignore the players on here. By the way, expansion or relocate? I think expansion but you never know.
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May 19, 2020 at 11:07 p.m.
#1
Just Keep Swimming
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My dream NHL would have Hamilton, Québec City, Saskatoon and maybe Halifax in it. I think the NHL probably tops out at 10 CAD cities so pick 3 of those
May 19, 2020 at 11:08 p.m.
#2
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Quoting: Random2152
My dream NHL would have Hamilton, Québec City, Saskatoon and maybe Halifax in it. I think the NHL probably tops out at 10 CAD cities so pick 3 of those


I agree they won't add too many teams. I would like to see the first 3 you said. By the way, is it more likely expansion or relocate? I think expansion.
May 19, 2020 at 11:09 p.m.
#3
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they wont get another NHL team (im from Canada by the way). The money isnt in Canada, especially with the strength of the dollar. There will be an NHL team in Houston before there is ever consideration for Canada
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May 19, 2020 at 11:10 p.m.
#4
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Quebec should definitely get the Nordiques back. If not expansion than relocate Florida. Regina could work really well. Hamilton wouldn't be a bad idea either. Halifax is tricky just cause the economy in the Atlantic provinces is so fragile. A place like Mississauga would also work
May 19, 2020 at 11:12 p.m.
#5
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Quoting: coga16
they wont get another NHL team (im from Canada by the way). The money isnt in Canada, especially with the strength of the dollar. There will be an NHL team in Houston before there is ever consideration for Canada


Unfortunatly, I agree. Betman is a crappy commissioner. He cares only about money. He doesn't understand Hockey is Canadas sport and thinks American teams are better even though Canada likes hockey more.
May 19, 2020 at 11:12 p.m.
#6
Dubas isnt a genius
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Quoting: Saskleaf
Unfortunatly, I agree. Betman is a crappy commissioner. He cares only about money. He doesn't understand Hockey is Canadas sport and thinks American teams are better even though Canada likes hockey more.


And generally speaking they make money
May 19, 2020 at 11:14 p.m.
#7
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Quoting: coga16
they wont get another NHL team (im from Canada by the way). The money isnt in Canada, especially with the strength of the dollar. There will be an NHL team in Houston before there is ever consideration for Canada


I agree with the 2nd half of that statement but I think there is enough money in QC and Hamilton for sure.
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May 19, 2020 at 11:15 p.m.
#8
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Quoting: Skyraider112
Quebec should definitely get the Nordiques back. If not expansion than relocate Florida. Regina could work really well. Hamilton wouldn't be a bad idea either. Halifax is tricky just cause the economy in the Atlantic provinces is so fragile. A place like Mississauga would also work


First city to get a team in QBC. 2nd is Hamilton, and this is the only other one I think would work. Hamilton has a population almost double that of Saskatoon+Halifax, and including the GTA and southern Ontario (I know I'd go to games) we're talking 7-8m people. Probably more. They also have an NHL calibre arena. I either see Ottawa moving or Florida moving there.
May 19, 2020 at 11:17 p.m.
#9
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Quoting: Saskleaf
Unfortunatly, I agree. Betman is a crappy commissioner. He cares only about money. He doesn't understand Hockey is Canadas sport and thinks American teams are better even though Canada likes hockey more.


I would disagree that he is a crappy Commissioner, his job is to represent the BOG and the owners, he makes them money and he has been successful growing the net worth of the league.
Its a business, all sport leagues are businesses.

Canada as an economy cant support additional teams, 1 is already deeply struggling in Ottawa. Look at how much of a fight Calgary (where I live) had to fight for a new arena. There is no provincial or federal support for sports arenas to be built. Local governments can not justify tax payers to pay for them either. There is only 1 ready to go NHL level arena in Quebec City and that is a very small population of less than 600k. Thats not a market the NHL is dying to get into. Their best chance is to relocate the Senators there

Its just not that rich of a country to support that many pro franchises. Its just a numbers game and nothing to do with Canadas Sport.
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May 19, 2020 at 11:20 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: Random2152
I agree with the 2nd half of that statement but I think there is enough money in QC and Hamilton for sure.


Dont see an NHL landscape that Quebec City has a franchise on top of the existing 7....their best bet and IMO only bet is Senators are sold and relocated
May 19, 2020 at 11:23 p.m.
#11
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Quoting: coga16
I would disagree that he is a crappy Commissioner, his job is to represent the BOG and the owners, he makes them money and he has been successful growing the net worth of the league.
Its a business, all sport leagues are businesses.

Canada as an economy cant support additional teams, 1 is already deeply struggling in Ottawa. Look at how much of a fight Calgary (where I live) had to fight for a new arena. There is no provincial or federal support for sports arenas to be built. Local governments can not justify tax payers to pay for them either.

Its just not that rich of a country to support that many pro franchises. Its just a numbers game and nothing to do with Canadas Sport.


Unfortunatly you're right. Money is the nhl top priority. It is quite sad. I think they would make enough money is Quebec or Hamilton but They have a smaller population than American cities wanting nhl teams, so the Nhl thinks they will make more money.
May 19, 2020 at 11:29 p.m.
#12
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Quoting: coga16
they wont get another NHL team (im from Canada by the way). The money isnt in Canada, especially with the strength of the dollar. There will be an NHL team in Houston before there is ever consideration for Canada


Quoting: Saskleaf
Unfortunatly, I agree. Betman is a crappy commissioner. He cares only about money. He doesn't understand Hockey is Canadas sport and thinks American teams are better even though Canada likes hockey more.


This isn't about the Canadian dollar at all. If we are talking gate, Canadian teams are generally drawing full houses (let's exclude Ottawa right now because of a sh1tty owner). Althiugh fan bases are always fickle, teams north of the border simply make money.

Where Bettman may have a point is in why a Canadian site WILL NOT see a team. The price of an expansion team is what now.... $500 million? Bettman's concern is not the team's ability to make the expansion fee back in a timely fashion when considering the exchange rate. Any owner that wants a team here maybe waiting 20 years to see that franchise in the black.... assuming a healthy profit margin of $30-40 million CDN a season.

As we all saw with Atlanta to Winnipeg, any option involves relocation. Buying a floundering franchise (Hi Miami! Olá Pheonix!!) may run $300 million US. Even with conversion that is well under the current expansion fee, and money that can be made back in half the time frame.

Where Bettman's clear preference for the US markets lies in TV deals. When Columbus entered the league, the selling point was that the city at that time was the 24th largest TV market in the US. More TV exposure = mo' money. It explains is stance in Arizona to a tee really.

Now for the record, I was born and raised Gretzky-berg, and there is no doubt in my mind that Hamilton WILL NOT over time support and NHL team. Too many courtships with the OHL and AHL to convince me it will work. Now Tri-cities? That folks is a conversation worth having due to it centrality to outlying markets of around an additional 400,000; and closer to 750,000 if we include Hamilton/Burlington which is about a 45 minute drive.

Halifax - if Winnipeg can, maybe ..... but sponsor dollars will be a huge issue.

Saskatoon? In the mid 80s the Blues were dangerously close to calling it home. Given the current economic stability there, yeah, I could see it flying.

My 50 cents on this fantastic question.
May 19, 2020 at 11:32 p.m.
#13
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Quoting: coga16
Dont see an NHL landscape that Quebec City has a franchise on top of the existing 7....their best bet and IMO only bet is Senators are sold and relocated


It works just fine in WPG and QC fans are fanatical. It doesn't necessarily need to be an expansion team but I do think that they could support a franchise. They already have anew arena and everything.
May 19, 2020 at 11:32 p.m.
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Quoting: Saskleaf
Unfortunatly you're right. Money is the nhl top priority. It is quite sad. I think they would make enough money is Quebec or Hamilton but They have a smaller population than American cities wanting nhl teams, so the Nhl thinks they will make more money.


As as a business case, they are just not sustainable enough as pro sport cities to support a team beyond their inception of a few years based on their population size. Its just not really that realistic especially with such a weak dollar.

Winnipeg is a good example now, after 5+ years in the league, they have now started to dip in terms of avg attendance, revenue...luckily the owners are very smart building up their infrastructure for 10_ years and own everything around the MTS Centre with developments in the True North Centre, including owning the arena so all revenue 365 from parking to concessions of all events including Jets games, Moose games, Concerts, etc...it is going into True North Sports Entertainment pocket. If they were just an ownership group trying to launch in small Canadian market now, they would be relocating.

Senators relocating within Canada really is the only option I see a new Canadian market getting a team
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May 19, 2020 at 11:34 p.m.
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Hamilton would definitely be doing better than Florida.
May 19, 2020 at 11:34 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: coga16
As as a business case, they are just not sustainable enough as pro sport cities to support a team beyond their inception of a few years based on their population size. Its just not really that realistic especially with such a weak dollar.

Winnipeg is a good example now, after 5+ years in the league, they have now started to dip in terms of avg attendance, revenue...luckily the owners are very smart building up their infrastructure for 10_ years and own everything around the MTS Centre with developments in the True North Centre, including owning the arena so all revenue 365 from parking to concessions of all events including Jets games, Moose games, Concerts, etc...it is going into True North Sports Entertainment pocket. If they were just an ownership group trying to launch in small Canadian market now, they would be relocating.

Senators relocating within Canada really is the only option I see a new Canadian market getting a team


Yeah the Sens should get a new owner and relocate in Ottawa instead of Kanada.
May 19, 2020 at 11:35 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: swinny
This isn't about the Canadian dollar at all. If we are talking gate, Canadian teams are generally drawing full houses (let's exclude Ottawa right now because of a sh1tty owner). Althiugh fan bases are always fickle, teams north of the border simply make money.

Where Bettman may have a point is in why a Canadian site WILL NOT see a team. The price of an expansion team is what now.... $500 million? Bettman's concern is not the team's ability to make the expansion fee back in a timely fashion when considering the exchange rate. Any owner that wants a team here maybe waiting 20 years to see that franchise in the black.... assuming a healthy profit margin of $30-40 million CDN a season.

As we all saw with Atlanta to Winnipeg, any option involves relocation. Buying a floundering franchise (Hi Miami! Olá Pheonix!!) may run $300 million US. Even with conversion that is well under the current expansion fee, and money that can be made back in half the time frame.

Where Bettman's clear preference for the US markets lies in TV deals. When Columbus entered the league, the selling point was that the city at that time was the 24th largest TV market in the US. More TV exposure = mo' money. It explains is stance in Arizona to a tee really.

Now for the record, I was born and raised Gretzky-berg, and there is no doubt in my mind that Hamilton WILL NOT over time support and NHL team. Too many courtships with the OHL and AHL to convince me it will work. Now Tri-cities? That folks is a conversation worth having due to it centrality to outlying markets of around an additional 400,000; and closer to 750,000 if we include Hamilton/Burlington which is about a 45 minute drive.

Halifax - if Winnipeg can, maybe ..... but sponsor dollars will be a huge issue.

Saskatoon? In the mid 80s the Blues were dangerously close to calling it home. Given the current economic stability there, yeah, I could see it flying.

My 50 cents on this fantastic question.


Winnipeg is a unique case, I touched on it with the ownership group True North building up a complete entertainment district, including owning the Arena and an AHL franchise before they got a team. They had a profitable sports and entertainment infrastructure in place before they got the Thrashers....if they never got them they still were making money, by owning one of the busiest arenas in North America prior to the Jets in terms of Concerts and Events

Just an FYI, all NHL players are paid in US dollars, so yes a bad Canadian dollar impacts Canadian market ownership grounds. A sustained weak Canadian dollar will take its toll on weaker ownership groups to combat the additional exchange rate. Your revenue source is Canadian, and a big part of your teams operating cost has to be paid in American. Need to close that gap before we start talking Canadian markets again
May 19, 2020 at 11:35 p.m.
#18
Bandwagon fairweathe
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I always thought the blades and moose should switch places, but that was before the ice came to town. I don’t see much changing in Canada as far as pro hockey goes, personally I like my 20 dollar wheatking ticket and night out, just about as much as a 400 dollar jets outing, but possibly getting old.
May 19, 2020 at 11:37 p.m.
#19
Bandwagon fairweathe
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Quoting: coga16
Winnipeg is a unique case, I touched on it with the ownership group True North building up a complete entertainment district, including owning the Arena and an AHL franchise before they got a team. They had a profitable sports and entertainment infrastructure in place before they got the Thrashers....if they never got them they still were making money, by owning one of the busiest arenas in North America prior to the Jets in terms of Concerts and Events

Exactly a perfect storm as such, and I believe what truly sealed it was when one of the wealthiest or possibly wealthiest families in Canada joined the deal, tough to compare to anywhere else
May 19, 2020 at 11:44 p.m.
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Quoting: Birtle34
Exactly a perfect storm as such, and I believe what truly sealed it was when one of the wealthiest or possibly wealthiest families in Canada joined the deal, tough to compare to anywhere else


yeah the David Thompson invested in that juggernaut of a sports and entertainment bc of how profitable it was before the Jets arrived. Chipman and his group really built it up right but it was a decade+ of work so they built up a system that could almost sustain itself.

Avs are the same with (kroenke) he owns the arena, the nuggets, the lacrosse team, the MLS team in Denver...he owns another tenant sports team in the Pepsi too, Hes one of the richest owners in the league, and his wife is one of the heiress of Walmart. They built up an sports empire in Denver that basically just self sustains itself now too
May 19, 2020 at 11:45 p.m.
#21
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Quoting: Random2152
It works just fine in WPG and QC fans are fanatical. It doesn't necessarily need to be an expansion team but I do think that they could support a franchise. They already have anew arena and everything.


Winnipeg is a different animal. QC has a long way to go before it is replicating the True North groups infrastructure to handle a sports team in a small market,
It all depends on the QC ownership group...if it isnt Quebecor who owns the Videotron Centre....it might be an uphill climb from day 1
May 19, 2020 at 11:46 p.m.
#22
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Quoting: coga16
Winnipeg is a unique case, I touched on it with the ownership group True North building up a complete entertainment district, including owning the Arena and an AHL franchise before they got a team. They had a profitable sports and entertainment infrastructure in place before they got the Thrashers....if they never got them they still were making money, by owning one of the busiest arenas in North America prior to the Jets in terms of Concerts and Events


Agreed. But the Trashers were bought dirt cheap as well. Even with that infastructure in place, does the 'Peg get an expansion team?? I am gonna say no.

With the last bid for Quebec City - with a new arena and very strong QJMHL franchise making money in the Ramparts, AND Videotron being on of the backers of the bid,it was still no. If the Panthers were sold tomorrow to that group, and with that immediate infrastructure in place, does the NHL still say no?

Lastly Seattle HAD NO infastructure and all. Same with Vegas. Just owners with pockets deeper than the Marianas Trench. New buildings for both locations are being or were built. The NHL did not shy away, because that expansion fee could be handled.

Now is that a function of the financial standing of the potential owners? 🤷‍♂️. But Videotron makes money just like Molsons. Leaves you to wonder.....
May 19, 2020 at 11:50 p.m.
#23
Bandwagon fairweathe
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Quoting: coga16
yeah the David Thompson invested in that juggernaut of a sports and entertainment bc of how profitable it was before the Jets arrived. Chipman and his group really built it up right but it was a decade+ of work so they built up a system that could almost sustain itself.

Avs are the same with (kroenke) he owns the arena, the nuggets, the lacrosse team, the MLS team in Denver...he owns another tenant sports team in the Pepsi too, Hes one of the richest owners in the league, and his wife is one of the heiress of Walmart. They built up an sports empire in Denver that basically just self sustains itself now too


Ya true north gave the nhl zero reason to say no, there tickets are softening a little, secondary market only getting face value, but a solid model hopefully some playoff success too cement coming soon
May 19, 2020 at 11:55 p.m.
#24
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Quoting: coga16
I would disagree that he is a crappy Commissioner, his job is to represent the BOG and the owners, he makes them money and he has been successful growing the net worth of the league.
Its a business, all sport leagues are businesses.

Canada as an economy cant support additional teams, 1 is already deeply struggling in Ottawa. Look at how much of a fight Calgary (where I live) had to fight for a new arena. There is no provincial or federal support for sports arenas to be built. Local governments can not justify tax payers to pay for them either. There is only 1 ready to go NHL level arena in Quebec City and that is a very small population of less than 600k. Thats not a market the NHL is dying to get into. Their best chance is to relocate the Senators there

Its just not that rich of a country to support that many pro franchises. Its just a numbers game and nothing to do with Canadas Sport.


Exactly. California alone has a bigger population then all of Canada; the marketing dollars aren't there, the TV contracts aren't there, and hockey is more a global sport then ever and more American players then ever and growing...hockey may be Canada's sport but that's like calling football Texas's sport. Canada's population alone is barely growing just doesn't make sense.
May 19, 2020 at 11:56 p.m.
#25
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Quoting: coga16
Winnipeg is a different animal. QC has a long way to go before it is replicating the True North groups infrastructure to handle a sports team in a small market,
It all depends on the QC ownership group...if it isnt Quebecor who owns the Videotron Centre....it might be an uphill climb from day 1


I think they are the ones who own it, or at least have some interest in it,
 
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