First, thanks for your comment.
Jeff with Jack is why I like Housley over Krueger, but as I said, I liked Krueger at first (Just as I liked Murray until he started trading away draft picks for nothing).
I guess you did not hear O'Reilly say he lost his love of the game. I heard that and immediately thought he had to go.
Did you know O'Reilly had the worse +/- among all skater going into the finals? Did you know he was on the ice for the only Stars goal in game 7? We can disagree on the contribution O'Reilly made but, it was not only him as so many in Buffalo seem to think.
O'Reilly may have been the most talented Sabre, but just look at that '17-'18 club. Seven players with 10 or more goals, the Hockey Writers thought they were a playoff team, O'Reilly sets a record for face-off wins, this is not a last over all club. Time to cut the chaff and move on. Let me add, O'Reilly really never led a club to the playoffs, he was just one of many, especially when he only "LED" a team to the playoffs in 3 of his 10 years in the NHL.
Let me add to Botterill's first year. He knew this club was close to getting to the playoffs, but he knew it lacked leadership, secondary scoring and defense.
He picked up as many players as he could with playoff experience. Wilson and Nolan (once they were added Deslauriers was extra) each were on a team that won 2 cups. Pomenville, Scandella, Beaulieu, Pouliot all had Stanley cup game experience. Do you remember Nolan saying no one is held accountable? Unfortunately getting playoff and cup experience did not help this team.
He added Pouliot and Pominville for the secondary scoring.
Scandella and Beaulieu helped with the really pitiful defense Botterill inherited.
That should have been a playoff team.

What I like in particular about Botterill were his efforts to make Rochester better and build a winning tradition there.
Once a player gets acclimated to losing it is hard to change. Winning starts in Rochester and they are doing it now.
Long range then how to build a cup, start with a winning atmosphere on the farm.
So he went about building a better Rochester.
He was very successful as they have been a playoff team every year since his arrival.
The three previous years, the Buffalo GM blamed previous management.
This BTW was the reason he picked up Redman, make Rochester better and trade players that are extra.

Let me add, I liked Deslauriers, Foligno and Ennis, but he made short term trades that did not pan out at all, to try to make the PO. and this was a PO team that did not produce.

As to the trades we obviously disagree.
I will make the trade Kane and Guhle for Montour any time.
Miller was the fourth RHD and suffered from lack ice time, but he had one of the best advanced metrics among all D-men.
Many thought (I think you were one of them) Scandella was our best LHD that year, so please let's not call him 2nd or 3rd pairing. You are contradicting your self when you say we should have received a 2nd for him then call him a 3rd pairing defenseman.
Pomenville was old and over the hill, but he was a throw in to cut the Stars salary and Scandella was the key.

We can discuss all of the trades and disagree on the value (especially when you say " just because someone is worse than you, doesnt make you good"). So let's agree to disagree.
While many will jump on the "Jason Botterill is the worst" bandwagon, that honor actually goes to Tim Murray!
Let me close, Botterill has made a lot of errors, but the rebuild started with the 2018 draft and that was only 2 seasons ago.

Im not blaming Kreuger for Skinner. He has no center so the options are put Skinner with Mittlestadt (nope he got demoted), put Skinner with Johansson (this line was actually doing very well with Sobotka of all people, but when he got hurt they could not find a replacement out of supposedly better forwards to match what Sobotka brought to that line, so giving credit to Kreuger here), try literally any other line combination to see if they can find a spark somewhere (including promoting the much deserved Lazar, and the supposedly better than Sobotka wingers) because your starting goalie got hurt and your season is tanking, or bury Olofsson on lines where Skinner couldn't succeed (which worked only after getting Kuhun 2 weeks before the season ended. Dahlin needed a short lease early on and this will do wonders for his development. Bogosian clearly was being showcased by Botterill so Krueger did not have a voice in this matter, he was probably told it would be a couple of weeks at most and it turned into 3 months. The only questionable decision for me was when Olofsson was hurt, but it is easily defendable as Vesey is supposed to be a 20 goal scorer (much like Reinhart) and he didn't want all of his talent on one line as this would get shut down very quickly. Krueger's faults are Botterill's failures and its not fair to blame Krueger this early.

Honestly the team's only failures are two fairly fixable faults. Get a G, of which there are many starters in FA this year. Pay whatever cost you need to to lock someone up, or grab a guy like georgiev and hope he and ullmark are a good tandem. Next is 2C. I'd give up anyone outside of Eichel and Dahlin to get another top line center to play under eichel personally.

Id rather not pay a premiem for a FA goalie unless they cleared out some dead cap. Ullmark was good but missed a month and a half, if he didnt theyd be in the playoffs right now, and UPL is coming up. The only one id really want is Lehner, who Botts let walk for free. Id like to see what Georgiev is worth

Not to bash the sabres - but having an extra month or two of Ullmark would not put them in the playoffs. The issues lie past that. I can't see them beating out any of the top 8 teams in the east

They needed 3 points and they would currently be in the playoffs. Ullmark would have easily gotten them 1.5 games

They are 13 points out...

They were 4 points out at the TDL. Lost 6 games all by one-two scores. I’m not saying they make the 16 team playoff bracket. But Ullmark steals them some points in that 6 game stretch, which would make them a “playoff” team this year.

They needed 3 points and they would currently be in the playoffs. Ullmark would have easily gotten them 1.5 games

Everyone in Buffalo has heard I lost my love of the game quite, famously taken out of context to crusade against ROR, and extremely over stated. You keep quoting his +/- in the playoffs as a negative but will defend Risto along the same lines. +/- is not the end all be all of stats. He won the Conn Smythe for a reason. Also if youre saying it takes a full team to win the cup, yes we all know that, and ROR was one of those pieces.

Just because Scandella was good for Buffalo doesnt put him in the same camp as Hedman, Keith, OEL, etc. He is a 2LHD sometimes a 3 LHD. He was the Sabres 1LHD not A #1LHD. That talent available at the time of that 3rd makes the trade not worth.

"Just because someone is worse than you, doesnt make you good" just because Bowman made a bad trade, doesnt make Botterill good, thats the 3rd time I said it here and I gave it the W.

I said Kane for Montour fine, but Guhle and Tracey (or anyone else) I'd pass as I currently I try to find ways of Montour for the same return.

Murray built a competitive team. He may have sold off some futures but they were getting better, they did not need to rebuild. So their efforts combined made not only GMTMs tenure worse in hindsight but also Botterills is still bad. At least GMTM got something in return for what he sold off

Ok ya I forgot about this weird playoff thing this year. I meant traditionally speaking

Ok ya I forgot about this weird playoff thing this year. I meant traditionally speaking

Actually, at the TDL the Sabres added Simmons and Kahun, then they lost 6 straight. Win 4 out of the 6 and the Sabres are only 2 pts out of the play off (16 team format). The team cannot win on the road, but the team is headed in the correct direction.
Jack looks like he wants to win, and Dahlin looks like he will be really good in a couple of years.
But after Jack what do the Sabres have?
Who is their Marner, Tavares, Nylander, Kapanen?
I think Ullmark could be ready next year to take over the GK keys.
If the young kids can step up, I think they can compete for a playoff spot.
That is a lot of ifs, Thompson, Mittelstadt, Cozens, Jokiharju, Skinner, Olofsson and of course Ullmark.
BTW, the AHL playoffs are not carried here in Buffalo, but a Leafs fan reported Thompson was the best Amerk. Did you get to watch last year's playoffs?
Finally, I love chatting with people who actually know hockey.

I am sure glad you save this for last "Murray built a competitive team", the teams he built did worse than Botterill's teams after he unloaded Kane, O'Reilly and Lehner.
TBH with you, that statement speaks volumes why you hate Botterill.
Let me add, you are correct about Scandella not being a top LHD, which I never disagreed, but if he was the Sabres top LHD, what sort of defense did Murray build?
What secondary scoring did the team have under Murray?
Who trades for a bipolar, alcoholic GK?
The team that Murray built had no depth, defense, and most certainly no heart.

Only one team wanted Kane and now I have read he has worn out his welcome there as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_ZpOdjLiSo
:22 second, "I was not mentally tough enough" your captain should be the toughest of the team.
1:20 "we are stuck in this mind set of being OK" the captain is responsible for making the team a winning team.
1:55 "through the year I lost my love of the game" Kids play this for fun! how can you lose the love of having fun?
3:04 Asked "when did the team as a whole start feeling sorry for itself" he answered 3:14 "It happened right away!"
3:26 paraphrasing here I am getting ready to play over seas it has been along time since I have had that kind of excitement, have a chance to win something.
4:57 again paraphrasing I was lost as soon as the season started, "right from the get go".
5:05 He asked again paraphrasing kids love this game why did you lose it he replied "at times through the year I felt I lost it."
6:02 "Kind of how I felt out of love for it"
He said it not once but 3 times.
So he said right from the start of the season he gave up.
He said he wanted to leave Buffalo and play over seas to get excited again.
Yet you somehow feel these comments were taken out of context.

I will say again Antonio Brown made it clear that he was not a team player after leading the league with 15 touch downs, catching over 100 passes for the 6th consecutive year he was traded for 3rd and 5th round pick. In contrast the Bills traded a first for Stefon Diggs and he only had 63 catches and 6 TD catches. So you can see, when a player let's it be known he is not wanted, teams often just dump him.

O'Reilly more than once in that interview made it clear he did not want to play in Buffalo, I was happy we got more than a bucket of pucks for him.

Actually, at the TDL the Sabres added Simmons and Kahun, then they lost 6 straight. Win 4 out of the 6 and the Sabres are only 2 pts out of the play off (16 team format). The team cannot win on the road, but the team is headed in the correct direction.
Jack looks like he wants to win, and Dahlin looks like he will be really good in a couple of years.
But after Jack what do the Sabres have?
Who is their Marner, Tavares, Nylander, Kapanen?
I think Ullmark could be ready next year to take over the GK keys.
If the young kids can step up, I think they can compete for a playoff spot.
That is a lot of ifs, Thompson, Mittelstadt, Cozens, Jokiharju, Skinner, Olofsson and of course Ullmark.
BTW, the AHL playoffs are not carried here in Buffalo, but a Leafs fan reported Thompson was the best Amerk. Did you get to watch last year's playoffs?
Finally, I love chatting with people who actually know hockey.

So were blaming Murray for Lehners personal demons that he didnt come to grips with till 2018. GMTM didnt pick first. In fact GMTM, controversially, openly tanked for McEichel then improved enough to pick 8 the next year, then get fired after having a similar season despite improving, to which Botterill threw the team in reverse and they ended up the worst team in the league again, to which ROR said he didnt have fun. Yeah I wouldnt either. RORs comments are extremely forgivable, especially now with more and more coming out about this teams mismanagement. Just cause someone is down doesnt mean they quit on the team. I said it then and I'll say it again. He was under contract, he can find the motivation to pick himself up the next year and get back at it.he surely did that when he was in last place in St.L, he didnt quit on them, he clearly isnt mentally weak as ROR crusaders complain. The comments are completely taken out of context and over stated to defend a terrible GM amd Franchise defining decision.

Exactly. They totally have the tools to do it (outside of a 2C, another goalie, and some other minor adjustments). I think they have worse versions of the marner-nylander in reinhart-olofsson, but hopefully they can take a step forward- I don't necessarily think thats the issue. What they're really missing is, as you said, the Tavares. You don't necessarily need a JT, but I think they need another top line center, and I might be tempted to move that 2020 first rounder if it means getting one. Then you can have a great duo on each top 6 line, and take some attention off of eichel.

I agree that there are a lot of ifs. Similar to the leafs blue line. We have a lot of guys who could potentially step into a top 4 role next year, but you just have no idea if they'll be ready, or if they're good enough. You hope that Skinner bounces back. You hope middlestadt finds his game. You hope cozens steps in as a 3C or more. You hope Jokiharju becomes the perfect partner for Dahlin. But there are just so many variables, and I think if you want to be competitive and give eichel a reason to stay, you've gotta surround eichel with the pieces he needs next year.

I really want the sabres in the playoffs (I don't want them ahead of TOR of course), but I it's just frustrating from an outsider's point of view how they have so many of the pieces that they need, yet can't get there. I can only imagine what its like as a fan. At least when the leafs were never in the playoffs (not that we're particularly successful there), we had a team that didn't have the stars (other than Phil and to an extent dion), and you kinda knew they wouldn't make it anyways.

That interview was taken after Botterill added Scandella, Beaulieu, Pominville and Pouliot.
Instead of looking to the new season with excitement (as the Hockey Writers did predicting they would end the playoff drought), O'Reilly said right from the get go he was not excited.
Yes, Murray was in the Ottawa organization and should have known Lehner had physiological issues.
When a player says through out the interview he gave up from the beginning he has to go.
I am really sorry that you do not understand that.
EDIT:
Yes, that interview only confirmed that the he was not excited when the team lost their first 5 games and 7 of the first 8.
You heard it, he said he was not ready "from the get go".
He had to go. Just listen to him and do not take anything out of context.

"That interview was taken after Botterill added Scandella, Beaulieu, Pominville and Pouliot. O'Reilly said right from the get go he was not excited." Yeah i wonder why. An overpayed average depth dman, a depth Dman kicked out of Montreal for caring more about the clubs than the team, a nostalgia winger pickup that relied on Eichel for his 30 points, an a fresh buyout from Edmonton that we already know was not going to help. In fact im pretty sure even WGR was questioning his lack of moves that offseason. I wonder why he wasnt excited...

He was the captain, he should not be coming to the new season with a bad attitude!
Some how you over look that.
The Hockey Writers thought the team would make the play offs, not get the first overall draft pick.
You are making things up.
Through out that interview, O'Reilly made it clear that he did not want to play in Buffalo any more.
Have a good life, I do not know why I bother with you, when you ignore obvious facts.