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Salary Cap Reform

Created by: Leafs_and_Sens_Fan
Team: 2019-20 Custom Team
Initial Creation Date: Jul. 21, 2020
Published: Jul. 21, 2020
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
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How is Tampa able to use the taxes for cap circumvention but Toronto can't use their money to keep training facilities open during the summer?

I thought the salary cap was to make an even playing field. However, if a team can exploit their preferable tax system why can't Toronto use their money to keep training camps open during the summer.

Not to mention Toronto pays money to support teams like Tampa every year.

If we want a fair system with no training camps during the summer then tax differences should also be removed by adjusting cap space to be for after tax earnings.

Either a team gets to use it's advantages or they don't. It really doesn't matter. As long as it's the same for all teams.
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
10$81,500,000$87,781,000$0$0-$6,281,000
Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Florida Panthers
$5,900,000$5,900,000
LW, RW
NMC
UFA - 4
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$11,634,000$11,634,000
C
UFA - 5
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$10,893,000$10,893,000
RW
UFA - 6
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$11,000,000$11,000,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 6
Logo of the Tampa Bay Lightning
$9,500,000$9,500,000
RW
UFA - 8
Logo of the Tampa Bay Lightning
$8,500,000$8,500,000
LW, C
NMC
UFA - 5
Logo of the Colorado Avalanche
$9,250,000$9,250,000
RW, C
UFA - 6
Logo of the Tampa Bay Lightning
$6,750,000$6,750,000
C, RW
UFA - 3
Logo of the Florida Panthers
$5,900,000$5,900,000
C
UFA - 3
Logo of the Carolina Hurricanes
$8,454,000$8,454,000
C
UFA - 5
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender

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Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:22 p.m.
#1
torontos finest
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oh boy this thread is going to be an absolute disaster
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Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:24 p.m.
#2
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The state tax definitely doesn't make things even. As a habs fan they struggle signing guys because of that fact. There needs to be some type of loop hole to make the state tax a non issue
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:24 p.m.
#3
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Its nice in principle. But its so much more complicated than that. Lets start with fixing something slightly simpler like the draft lottery, the cap is so darn complex.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:25 p.m.
#4
GM Hockeysaurus Rex
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Bonuses are being squashed, training facilities being closed because other teams are so poor they cant even afford to pay to have their own arena open but hey tax advantage? the league probably goes "tax whaat?" on that one.. **** them. I hope the Leafs can find a way to say **** you on revenue sharing and keep their money and dont invest in half broke teams.. 20-team league much?..
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:26 p.m.
#5
torontos finest
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Quoting: Seider53
Its nice in principle. But its so much more complicated than that. Lets start with fixing something slightly simpler like the draft lottery, the cap is so darn complex.


Probably shouldn't look into the NBA salary cap which has even more layers of complexity.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:27 p.m.
#6
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Quoting: mondo
Probably shouldn't look into the NBA salary cap which has even more layers of complexity.


Luckily im british, so I can live without that knowledge, though our sports exist without pressure for parity, which is a whole different issue.
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Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:27 p.m.
#7
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Quoting: Commonsense27
The state tax definitely doesn't make things even. As a habs fan they struggle signing guys because of that fact. There needs to be some type of loop hole to make the state tax a non issue


Quoting: Seider53
Its nice in principle. But its so much more complicated than that. Lets start with fixing something slightly simpler like the draft lottery, the cap is so darn complex.


It's a BIG problem. If you look at cup winners most of them are teams with low state taxes.

The salary cap is just an illusion of fairness.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:28 p.m.
#8
Bcarlo25
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I agree. I think kind of coincidentally, that it has somewhat leveled the playing field because a lot of the no tax markets are also markets that normally would be very undesirable. No one would want to go to a cesspool like florida otherwise, but they all do. I think they have to calculate that in though. The cap is complicated, make it more complicated, and make it so that the state tax really doesn’t matter. It’s a pretty simple fix.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:31 p.m.
#9
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Quoting: SammyT_51
Bonuses are being squashed, training facilities being closed because other teams are so poor they cant even afford to pay to have their own arena open but hey tax advantage? the league probably goes "tax whaat?" on that one.. **** them. I hope the Leafs can find a way to say **** you on revenue sharing and keep their money and dont invest in half broke teams.. 20-team league much?..


I know. That's why people dont like Bettman. He's not a fair guy.

The Leafs need every advantage they can get if they are playing with an intrinsic 15% less money than teams like Tampa.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:32 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: Leafs_and_Sens_Fan
It's a BIG problem. If you look at cup winners most of them are teams with low state taxes.

The salary cap is just an illusion of fairness.


Right, but if we consider earning potential as a part of the market, you need to then consider additional earning potential. So for example, Alex Barkov is not fantastically known within Florida, and won't be known among non-hockey fans, so his advertising potential and therefore earning potential is much lower than say Crosby or Matthews. So yes he takes home more of his wage than Matthews, but his earning potential outside of NHL salary is more limited.
Then we get to regions. A player has far higher marketability in their native region, so Tavares in Toronto has more financial incentives than Tavares did on Long Island. If his contract was equal in both locations should it's value be increased relative to the cap in Toronto where his earning potential is higher, and therefore his take-home salary is higher?
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:35 p.m.
#11
GM Hockeysaurus Rex
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Quoting: Leafs_and_Sens_Fan
I know. That's why people dont like Bettman. He's not a fair guy.

The Leafs need every advantage they can get if they are playing with an intrinsic 15% less money than teams like Tampa.


Yup.. but eh, when it comes to revenue sharing, everybody turns to Toronto and rangers with "please we need money to exist"
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:38 p.m.
#12
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Tampa taxes isn't cap circumvention LMAO plenty of teams have lower to no state tax yet players still take massive paychecks. Players in Tampa enjoy playing there and winning so they take team friendly deals. Maybe if Dubas knew what that meant Leafs wouldn't have such an issue. All these players took expensive paychecks in tax-less states:
Bobrovsky - 10M
Duchene - 8M
Johansen - 8M
Seguin - 9.85M
Benn - 9.5M
Pavelski - 7M
Stone - 9M

I don't disagree that there is some imbalance to it however the whole Toronto keeps their facilities open is a management controlled decision, kinda like how Arizona got caught giving fitness tests to players in the draft this year. Is it fair that Toronto and NYR make significantly more income each year than the Panthers and Coyotes? Should something be implemented for that too?

Also in what way does Toronto pay money to support Tampa? Tampa was the 5th highest team in ticket sales this year.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:43 p.m.
#13
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
Tampa taxes isn't cap circumvention LMAO plenty of teams have lower to no state tax yet players still take massive paychecks. Players in Tampa enjoy playing there and winning so they take team friendly deals. Maybe if Dubas knew what that meant Leafs wouldn't have such an issue. All these players took expensive paychecks in tax-less states
Bobrovsky - 10M
Duchene - 8M
Johansen - 8M
Seguin - 9.85M
Benn - 9.5M
Pavelski - 7M
Stone - 9M

I don't disagree that there is some imbalance to it however the whole Toronto keeps their facilities open is a management controlled decision, kinda like how Arizona got caught giving fitness tests to players in the draft this year. Is it fair that Toronto and NYR make significantly more income each year than the Panthers and Coyotes? Should something be implemented for that too?

Also in what way does Toronto pay money to support Tampa? Tampa was the 5th highest team in ticket sales this year.


Toronto was paying massive amounts of money to Tampa up until a couple of years ago when they got good.
Quoting: Seider53
Right, but if we consider earning potential as a part of the market, you need to then consider additional earning potential. So for example, Alex Barkov is not fantastically known within Florida, and won't be known among non-hockey fans, so his advertising potential and therefore earning potential is much lower than say Crosby or Matthews. So yes he takes home more of his wage than Matthews, but his earning potential outside of NHL salary is more limited.
Then we get to regions. A player has far higher marketability in their native region, so Tavares in Toronto has more financial incentives than Tavares did on Long Island. If his contract was equal in both locations should it's value be increased relative to the cap in Toronto where his earning potential is higher, and therefore his take-home salary is higher?


I mean I think that would be bad because teams would be trying to stop their players from advertising the game so they can have more cap space. But maybe put a 50% tax on sponsorship revenue that goes to the league.

Even taking sponsorship money out would benefit Toronto if they fix the tax situation.

Either way even in Toronto sponsorships only add up to about 4M. That's nowhere close to what the differences in taxes provide (15M).
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:44 p.m.
#14
torontos finest
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
don't disagree that there is some imbalance to it however the whole Toronto keeps their facilities open is a management controlled decision, kinda like how Arizona got caught giving fitness tests to players in the draft this year. Is it fair that Toronto and NYR make significantly more income each year than the Panthers and Coyotes? Should something be implemented for that too?


A couple things:

1. Big difference between letting your own signed prospects use your organizations facilities to practice year round, and giving fitness tests to players that haven't even gone through the draft yet.

2. Every team is owned by a billionaire. It shouldn't be hard for every team to keep the lights on like Toronto. The Panthers and Coyotes aren't poor, frugal souls, they're multimillion-dollar athletic corporations. Why does Toronto (and New York???) get punished for doing sensible management moves when other teams are too cheap to do so?
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:45 p.m.
#15
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Quoting: Leafs_and_Sens_Fan
Toronto was paying massive amounts of money to Tampa up until a couple of years ago when they got good.

I mean I think that would be bad because teams would be trying to stop their players from advertising the game so they can have more cap space. But maybe put a 50% tax on sponsorship revenue that goes to the league.

Either way even in Toronto sponsorships only add up to about 4M. That's nowhere close to what the differences in taxes provide (15M).


Care to share a link to this?
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:46 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
Care to share a link to this?


Go look for it yourself. It's common knowledge.

Look at Forbes for 2010-2015.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:50 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: Leafs_and_Sens_Fan
Toronto was paying massive amounts of money to Tampa up until a couple of years ago when they got good.

I mean I think that would be bad because teams would be trying to stop their players from advertising the game so they can have more cap space. But maybe put a 50% tax on sponsorship revenue that goes to the league.

Either way even in Toronto sponsorships only add up to about 4M. That's nowhere close to what the differences in taxes provide (15M).


Right, this is why a line in the sand needs to arbitrarily draw a line in the sand somewhere. Sometimes that line will benefit your team, sometimes it will be a hindrance. Ultimately it balances it out. So long as you know the rules and regulations you're playing by every team can still make a good shot. Yes Toronto could have a little help from the league in evening out regional tax differences. They went into those negotiations knowing the cap, and came out with players signed to the deal that they are signed to. we knew they could cause a cap crunch the day they were signed.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:53 p.m.
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Quoting: Seider53
Right, this is why a line in the sand needs to arbitrarily draw a line in the sand somewhere. Sometimes that line will benefit your team, sometimes it will be a hindrance. Ultimately it balances it out. So long as you know the rules and regulations you're playing by every team can still make a good shot. Yes Toronto could have a little help from the league in evening out regional tax differences. They went into those negotiations knowing the cap, and came out with players signed to the deal that they are signed to. we knew they could cause a cap crunch the day they were signed.


I don't understand how tax differences are but Leafs' training facilities (which they allow other teams players to attend) have to be closed.

It doesn't feel like a line. It feels like a curve just to cut Toronto's benefits while keeping other teams benefits.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:55 p.m.
#19
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Edited Jul. 22, 2020 at 3:00 a.m.
Quoting: Leafs_and_Sens_Fan
I don't understand how tax differences are but Leafs' training facilities (which they allow other teams players to attend) have to be closed.

It doesn't feel like a line. It feels like a curve just to cut Toronto's benefits while keeping other teams benefits.


So, hypothetically, if the league mandated a cap reform that created parity within the league, benefiting Toronto, they should also implement reforms that curb advantages Toronto currently have? That way we have as fair a league as possible.
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Jul. 21, 2020 at 6:56 p.m.
#20
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Quoting: mondo
A couple things:

1. Big difference between letting your own signed prospects use your organizations facilities to practice year round, and giving fitness tests to players that haven't even gone through the draft yet.

2. Every team is owned by a billionaire. It shouldn't be hard for every team to keep the lights on like Toronto. The Panthers and Coyotes aren't poor, frugal souls, they're multimillion-dollar athletic corporations. Why does Toronto (and New York???) get punished for doing sensible management moves when other teams are too cheap to do so?


1. I was using a rough comparison to say this was a front office decision, not something based on location like state taxes. Complaining about something that isn't in your realm of control is dumb, Florida has nicer weather than Ontario, should Ford implement a travel tax to stop people from going to Florida? See there is no logic to complaining about something that is unrelated and out of your control. Florida's government and the tax break they have implemented doesn't care about the NHL.

2. Yes teams are owned by people with lots of money, however there were 10 teams that lost more money then they gained last year. Florida and Arizona both went -10M. Oddly enough that's the other side of the tax advantage coin, the interest in Hockey in those states is drastically lower so the teams make significantly less revenue each year.

2.5. NYR is the 2nd highest income team in the league that's why i mentioned them. Both Rangers and Leafs bring in a marginally higher annual revenue than the rest of the league.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 7:17 p.m.
#21
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When a team has an advantage like Tampa and state tax yes it sucks for other teams but what goes around comes around and because of that state tax they have how many clauses signed and look at the cap crunch they gotta deal with now. I’m ok with imperfect system because the world turns and any advantage one team has over another will eventually get turned upside down one way or another. Draft lottery I actually like it for the most part. The year oilers got mcdavid I thought it was justice as it’s finest. Arizona and buffalo should be ashamed of how they tanked oilers didn’t they just sucked and earned it. No system is perfect but it is what it is. This years playoff is unfair why is Edmonton the only team sitting 2nd in division having to play in. Trick is not to let details of the league bother you because when your team overcomes the bs it’s just that much sweeter.
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Jul. 21, 2020 at 7:30 p.m.
#22
torontos finest
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Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
1. I was using a rough comparison to say this was a front office decision, not something based on location like state taxes. Complaining about something that isn't in your realm of control is dumb, Florida has nicer weather than Ontario, should Ford implement a travel tax to stop people from going to Florida? See there is no logic to complaining about something that is unrelated and out of your control. Florida's government and the tax break they have implemented doesn't care about the NHL.

2. Yes teams are owned by people with lots of money, however there were 10 teams that lost more money then they gained last year. Florida and Arizona both went -10M. Oddly enough that's the other side of the tax advantage coin, the interest in Hockey in those states is drastically lower so the teams make significantly less revenue each year.

2.5. NYR is the 2nd highest income team in the league that's why i mentioned them. Both Rangers and Leafs bring in a marginally higher annual revenue than the rest of the league.


1. My point wasn't that, it was about how the Toronto and Arizona things were different. I actually don't disagree on taxes and the salary cap.

2. The fact that 7 (https://www.statista.com/statistics/193744/operating-income-of-national-hockey-league-teams-in-2010/) teams weren't able to make a profit doesn't mean Toronto (or any other team, really) should be mandated by the CBA not to practice during the offseason.
Jul. 21, 2020 at 7:48 p.m.
#23
wpg
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Quoting: Seider53
Its nice in principle. But its so much more complicated than that. Lets start with fixing something slightly simpler like the draft lottery, the cap is so darn complex.

Lol, know ure mad bout picking 4th but COL dropped from 1st to 4th TWICE, in 2017 and 2019
Jul. 22, 2020 at 2:58 a.m.
#24
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Quoting: HockeyFan989
Lol, know ure mad bout picking 4th but COL dropped from 1st to 4th TWICE, in 2017 and 2019


Its not a Detroit issue specifically. Dropping that much within 3 years is silly when the pick belonged to the team that was the worst in the league it should retain more value. Granted Makar is a great player so in hindsight it's hard to look back in anger. But I definitely think you should have picked higher there. All of these threads from playoff teams proposing what they will do with Lafreniere hurt my soul.
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Jul. 22, 2020 at 6:42 a.m.
#25
wpg
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Quoting: Seider53
Its not a Detroit issue specifically. Dropping that much within 3 years is silly when the pick belonged to the team that was the worst in the league it should retain more value. Granted Makar is a great player so in hindsight it's hard to look back in anger. But I definitely think you should have picked higher there. All of these threads from playoff teams proposing what they will do with Lafreniere hurt my soul.


Yup, know wat u mean..... those r the times I wish one of the bottom 3 got him..... at least they would appreciate him :/
 
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