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Lets Have An Honest And Objective Discussion About Mitch Marner

Aug. 4, 2020 at 12:14 p.m.
#76
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Relax, breathe, and stay patient, it's a virtue after all.
And stop with these nonsense trades.
Aug. 4, 2020 at 7:36 p.m.
#77
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Quoting: Bcarlo25
Matthews wanted the most he could get, and got it. Same with nylander. If the leafs don’t respect marner for those reasons, why not the other two guys?

Tagging a million people in this kind of thing is such a scummy move. It gets quoted once and all of a sudden notifications are going out like crazy.


Reminds me of @BrandonDubinskyGOAT a few years ago
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Aug. 4, 2020 at 9:22 p.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
I agree that JJ has mostly played poorly over the last 2 seasons & makes big blunders from time to time, but he really isn't anywhere near as bad as you're making him out to be. You've gotta keep in mind that his most common D partners (Letang & Schultz) play a style that doesn't suit JJ's skillset at all. They are too offensive-minded forcing JJ to be the responsible guy. Alongside a shutdown partner who can help him take care of the forecheck & stop the cycle, he can be a very effective 2 way defenceman. Look at his stats from CBJ when he played with Savard:

EdU-WnEXoAcwvy3?format=jpg&name=medium

Even when he got paired in a top 4 role with Marino at the start of the season, he played above average. I am very confident that he'll play well alongside Muzzin who's one of the best defensive D in the league.

There's absolutely zero chance a GM will give up a Seider-caliber D for Marner with the way he's playing.


You need to stop copying and pasting. You should also use Johnson's correct skatr page kiddo. No one takes you seriously. The difference between Letang and Muzzin doesnt turn one of the worst defensemen in the NHL into a replacement level one.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 2:48 a.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
@aadoyle @TheLeafsSeason @draft_em_sign_em_trade_em @leafs_and_sens_fan @palhal @leafsfanforsomereason
@dgfresh78 @gordon_bombay @Miles_Togo @MG1986 @TheLeafsSeason @Leafsfan416 @onex @Trickster @rangerwall92 @Totally_Offside @DavidAyers @leaflet @NR1203 @Random2152 @mmxd @Byrr

Please give my post description a read & let me know your thoughts on my take in regards to Mitch Marner. Would you be inclined to trade him?

(Don't quote this post).


I don't understand. So he's your favourite player, but you want him gone for all the reasons you mentioned in your post? Seems so counter intuitive, like you should move on to another player as your favourite if you keep with these discussions and AGMs. More of a suggestion there, then anything else, because you are clearly entitled to do whatever it is you want to do.

So to your overall premise, I disagree. I don't think he's unliked, I don't think he's a dressing room issue, and I don't think he's outdone his time in Toronto. As I have mentioned to you previously on several of your AGMs you've tagged me in, Mitch shows more effort then at least half of the forwards, as far as backchecking - we need more of that, not less of that. He does a pretty good on the PK, all things considered, and again, we need more of that, not less of that. As offensively gifted as a player like Nylander is, I would take Mitch all day. Sure, the cap hit is rough, and his bonus schedule makes his contract virtually untradeable, especially if you want fair market value.

As far as your deal goes, that's absolutely a terrible terrible trade for Toronto. It's almost as if you are just sticking Toronto with random pieces and an old guy for a cap dump (Johnsson) in order to get him on the Pens. So not only in your scenario are the Leafs selling low, they are also not helping themselves in any clear area of play they need to upgrade.

As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely no reason to trade Mitch Marner, and I would go so far as to say, that as long as Dubas in the GM, I doubt Marner moves anywhere. For the sake of these AGMs and threads though, unless you can work out a deal that's fair for Toronto, I really see no reason to further discuss this. Kapanen, Johnsson, Kerfoot and Nylander will be long gone in my opinion before Marner goes anywhere, and that is a testament both to his skill, how he's valued on this team, and to his massive contract that, once again, you will have a very tough moving if you hope to get fair market value for him in a trade.
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Aug. 5, 2020 at 11:25 a.m.
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Quoting: MG1986
I don't understand. So he's your favourite player, but you want him gone for all the reasons you mentioned in your post? Seems so counter intuitive, like you should move on to another player as your favourite if you keep with these discussions and AGMs. More of a suggestion there, then anything else, because you are clearly entitled to do whatever it is you want to do.

So to your overall premise, I disagree. I don't think he's unliked, I don't think he's a dressing room issue, and I don't think he's outdone his time in Toronto. As I have mentioned to you previously on several of your AGMs you've tagged me in, Mitch shows more effort then at least half of the forwards, as far as backchecking - we need more of that, not less of that. He does a pretty good on the PK, all things considered, and again, we need more of that, not less of that. As offensively gifted as a player like Nylander is, I would take Mitch all day. Sure, the cap hit is rough, and his bonus schedule makes his contract virtually untradeable, especially if you want fair market value.

As far as your deal goes, that's absolutely a terrible terrible trade for Toronto. It's almost as if you are just sticking Toronto with random pieces and an old guy for a cap dump (Johnsson) in order to get him on the Pens. So not only in your scenario are the Leafs selling low, they are also not helping themselves in any clear area of play they need to upgrade.

As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely no reason to trade Mitch Marner, and I would go so far as to say, that as long as Dubas in the GM, I doubt Marner moves anywhere. For the sake of these AGMs and threads though, unless you can work out a deal that's fair for Toronto, I really see no reason to further discuss this. Kapanen, Johnsson, Kerfoot and Nylander will be long gone in my opinion before Marner goes anywhere, and that is a testament both to his skill, how he's valued on this team, and to his massive contract that, once again, you will have a very tough moving if you hope to get fair market value for him in a trade.


he's a penguins fan
Aug. 5, 2020 at 5:57 p.m.
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Quoting: Bcarlo25
Just weird that you cite holding out as this reason for trading marner, but it’s okay for other guys. Weird indeed.


You misunderstood the point. The reason why we want Marner out is not that he held out, but rather because he is not playing with any effort or heart. Most games it seems he just doesn't want to get involved in the play. The fact that he held out and got overpayed adds fuel to the fire.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 5:58 p.m.
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Can you show me the quote or source you have on Dubas lowballing Nylander with $5 million per year offer when Michael Nylander was asking for $8.5 million per year.


I don't have the quote but I remember Nylander wanted 8.5 for 7 years but Dubas started at 5 & wasn't willing to increase the bid until September.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 5:59 p.m.
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Quoting: Yojimbo
You need to talk to someone about your obsession. Are these cries for help?


What am I obsessed about? The idea of trading Marner for heart & grit has been the dream of all Leaf fans, not just me!
Aug. 5, 2020 at 6:12 p.m.
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Quoting: Miles_Togo
The problem with getting to the point where you feel you need to trade a player at all costs is that you end up with a bad trade. I think that Kadri needed to be traded last summer. I think that probably could have got a better return with more patience. I know that people are going a little off the deep end with the cap being flat, but Marner is still an extremely good asset that will get a very return, even in this environment. Perhaps - especially - in this environment. Keep in mind that Marner is only owed 700K next season. That makes him one of the cheapest players in the league at the very time when a ton of teams are very short in cash flow.

However, I don't imagine any of us can say if Marner is the problem holding the team back. I assume that if there is a problem player on the team and that player has not been moved then it is a big name player, but only the team would know who that is. I have wanted him gone because of the toxicity around the contract negotiations, but we don't actually know if that has caused a problem within the locker room. I remember when ROR was believed to be the problem in Buffalo.


I agree that we don't have any actual evidence that Marner is a toxic presence & holding the team back, but based on what we see from the games, that certainly seems to be the case. There have been a lot of games this season in which the whole team played well, they had lots of energy & skated circles against the opposition but Marner killed the momentum by making bad selfish plays. They lost a lot of close games because Marner didn't do his part to contribute.

It's true that Marner's salary is manageable for most team owners now that his bonuses are paid, but I still don't see any reason for a team to actually want him given the way he's played this season. It is difficult to build a contending team with a guy having an 11 million dollar cap hit so GMs want to have certainty that he's going to play like a top 5 player in his position. This is why I can't see TOR getting a great return, it's simply too risky.

I feel the trade I proposed is solid. Hornqvist is a heart & soul guy, he although doesn't have great skills or skating, he works hard every game by retrieving pucks, taking hits & driving to the net. Scores plenty of goals. That's exactly the type of guy Toronto needs. Johnson, though not coming off a good season, can be decent if he plays alongside a top defender like Muzzin. Both guys are a little old but it solves their problems for the time being.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 6:21 p.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
What am I obsessed about? The idea of trading Marner for heart & grit has been the dream of all Leaf fans, not just me!


You've possibly done triple digit AGMs of every team trading for Marner. I guess you dont know what obsession means.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 6:28 p.m.
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Quoting: MG1986
I don't understand. So he's your favourite player, but you want him gone for all the reasons you mentioned in your post? Seems so counter intuitive, like you should move on to another player as your favourite if you keep with these discussions and AGMs. More of a suggestion there, then anything else, because you are clearly entitled to do whatever it is you want to do.

So to your overall premise, I disagree. I don't think he's unliked, I don't think he's a dressing room issue, and I don't think he's outdone his time in Toronto. As I have mentioned to you previously on several of your AGMs you've tagged me in, Mitch shows more effort then at least half of the forwards, as far as backchecking - we need more of that, not less of that. He does a pretty good on the PK, all things considered, and again, we need more of that, not less of that. As offensively gifted as a player like Nylander is, I would take Mitch all day. Sure, the cap hit is rough, and his bonus schedule makes his contract virtually untradeable, especially if you want fair market value.

As far as your deal goes, that's absolutely a terrible terrible trade for Toronto. It's almost as if you are just sticking Toronto with random pieces and an old guy for a cap dump (Johnsson) in order to get him on the Pens. So not only in your scenario are the Leafs selling low, they are also not helping themselves in any clear area of play they need to upgrade.

As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely no reason to trade Mitch Marner, and I would go so far as to say, that as long as Dubas in the GM, I doubt Marner moves anywhere. For the sake of these AGMs and threads though, unless you can work out a deal that's fair for Toronto, I really see no reason to further discuss this. Kapanen, Johnsson, Kerfoot and Nylander will be long gone in my opinion before Marner goes anywhere, and that is a testament both to his skill, how he's valued on this team, and to his massive contract that, once again, you will have a very tough moving if you hope to get fair market value for him in a trade.


Thanks for the suggestion, but I am not willing to give up on Marner yet. Been a fan since his London days but also really disappointed in his play this season, which was why I felt the need to call him out. I just feel it's come to a point in which the Leafs need to trade him at all costs, because it looks like Marner is playing with zero confidence, so he could use a change of scenery, & he's badly hurting the team with his poor decision making.

In regards to the trade, I really don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. Hornqvist is exactly what Toronto needs, a heart & soul guy with leadership. He sets an example by working his arse off every game by retrieving pucks, taking hits & driving to the net. Can still score & is very good on the PP as well. Johnson, though he's played badly in his last 2 seasons, can still be an effective defenceman. He just hasn't been used right as he's asked to be the defensive stalwart for a risk taking partner (Letang/Schultz) & he gets exposed. Alongside a strong defensive partner, he's always been very good. Can eat big minutes too. I have a hard time seeing a team give up a better return for him anyway.

Regarding your response about effort, I think you're remembering Mitch from 2018/19. He's been different this season. He keeps trying to make a highlight-reel play or perfect pass & won't adjust when things aren't working. He won't deliver a hit to gain momentum or just cycle the puck & get shots on net. The fire he played with from last season is gone.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 6:29 p.m.
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Quoting: Yojimbo
You've possibly done triple digit AGMs of every team trading for Marner. I guess you dont know what obsession means.


Well, when a player on your team stinks, you try to trade him.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 6:30 p.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
What am I obsessed about? The idea of trading Marner for heart & grit has been the dream of all Leaf fans, not just me!


You really just want Marner on the Pittsburgh Penguins and you want people to be okay with Toronto receiving scraps for him.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 6:35 p.m.
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Quoting: mondo
You really just want Marner on the Pittsburgh Penguins and you want people to be okay with Toronto receiving scraps for him.


I already explained it's not scraps & honestly can't see a team giving up more than that given the way Marner has been playing this season.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 6:48 p.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
I already explained it's not scraps & honestly can't see a team giving up more than that given the way Marner has been playing this season.


It is scraps. Even though Marner hasn't been fantastic this season, he's still a PPG player and someone Leafs management has a lot of faith in. He's not "toxic presence" on the team, and don't you ****ing dare quote some random ass blogger or redditor about it. No one reputable as ever said he's toxic.

Johnson is a bottom pairing defensemen and will be liability on Toronto. Why would they waste 3 million in cap space on someone whose inevitability headed for the press box in the next couple of seasons? Hornqvist might have "heart and grit", but like Johnson, he's also on the decline. That's more than 75% of Marners cap hit on two players who will gradually slide down the depth chart and cause further financial issues that Marner's price tag ever could. Lafferty and Ruhwedel are write offs.

This isn't the Kessel trade. Toronto got Kapanen and were able to spurn the rest of the assets to acquire Andersen. Marner is also much younger than Kessel was. This trade offers nothing for the Maple Leafs, Pittsburgh gets a first line winger and also gets rid of two major contracts. Toronto gets maybe a couple of seasons out of mediocre players.

Stop proposing this trade. It's awful.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 7:27 p.m.
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Quoting: mondo
It is scraps. Even though Marner hasn't been fantastic this season, he's still a PPG player and someone Leafs management has a lot of faith in. He's not "toxic presence" on the team, and don't you ****ing dare quote some random ass blogger or redditor about it. No one reputable as ever said he's toxic.

Johnson is a bottom pairing defensemen and will be liability on Toronto. Why would they waste 3 million in cap space on someone whose inevitability headed for the press box in the next couple of seasons? Hornqvist might have "heart and grit", but like Johnson, he's also on the decline. That's more than 75% of Marners cap hit on two players who will gradually slide down the depth chart and cause further financial issues that Marner's price tag ever could. Lafferty and Ruhwedel are write offs.

This isn't the Kessel trade. Toronto got Kapanen and were able to spurn the rest of the assets to acquire Andersen. Marner is also much younger than Kessel was. This trade offers nothing for the Maple Leafs, Pittsburgh gets a first line winger and also gets rid of two major contracts. Toronto gets maybe a couple of seasons out of mediocre players.

Stop proposing this trade. It's awful.


Okay, you're correct that the two central pieces of this package are on the decline. But do you have any evidence that they're mediocre? Cuz their SKATR stats show that they can still be great.

Hornqvist:

EcWvx7ZXsAErvNR?format=jpg&name=small

Johnson:

EcXxClYXsAAbFl9?format=jpg&name=medium

Also, Marner isn't anywhere near as good as Kessel was when he got traded (ask @mhockey91, she'll explain why), so why should he get a better return? Sure you can argue that he's younger, but he hasn't shown any signs that he's going to get better. If anything, he's gotten worse which given his cap hit will scare GMs away.

I probably shouldn't have called him a toxic presence, but from watching him play, I can see that he's holding the team back. Every game he tries to make highlight reel plays and perfect passes which the opposition shuts down, killing any momentum the Leafs generate. He never tries to adjust & play a more simple game by just getting in on the forecheck & cycling the puck. At this point, it shouldn't even matter what the return is for him. Getting rid of him would be like addition by subtraction.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 7:45 p.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
Well, when a player on your team stinks, you try to trade him.


Yeah, once or twice... a dozen times... hundreds upon hundreds of time is obsession. Or a cry for help... hence the original post.
Aug. 5, 2020 at 10:54 p.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
Okay, you're correct that the two central pieces of this package are on the decline. But do you have any evidence that they're mediocre? Cuz their SKATR stats show that they can still be great.

Hornqvist:

EcWvx7ZXsAErvNR?format=jpg&name=small

Johnson:

EcXxClYXsAAbFl9?format=jpg&name=medium

Also, Marner isn't anywhere near as good as Kessel was when he got traded (ask @mhockey91, she'll explain why), so why should he get a better return? Sure you can argue that he's younger, but he hasn't shown any signs that he's going to get better. If anything, he's gotten worse which given his cap hit will scare GMs away.

I probably shouldn't have called him a toxic presence, but from watching him play, I can see that he's holding the team back. Every game he tries to make highlight reel plays and perfect passes which the opposition shuts down, killing any momentum the Leafs generate. He never tries to adjust & play a more simple game by just getting in on the forecheck & cycling the puck. At this point, it shouldn't even matter what the return is for him. Getting rid of him would be like addition by subtraction.


Lmfao still think that? After 5+ years of being awful and 3 straight years of being one of the worst defensemen in the NHL maybe you'll realize after two game where Johnson is almost single handedly sinking the penguins. Show the name above the picture with the skatr score that ranks in the 53rd percentile
Aug. 6, 2020 at 12:37 a.m.
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Quoting: MG1986
I don't understand. So he's your favourite player, but you want him gone for all the reasons you mentioned in your post? Seems so counter intuitive, like you should move on to another player as your favourite if you keep with these discussions and AGMs. More of a suggestion there, then anything else, because you are clearly entitled to do whatever it is you want to do.

So to your overall premise, I disagree. I don't think he's unliked, I don't think he's a dressing room issue, and I don't think he's outdone his time in Toronto. As I have mentioned to you previously on several of your AGMs you've tagged me in, Mitch shows more effort then at least half of the forwards, as far as backchecking - we need more of that, not less of that. He does a pretty good on the PK, all things considered, and again, we need more of that, not less of that. As offensively gifted as a player like Nylander is, I would take Mitch all day. Sure, the cap hit is rough, and his bonus schedule makes his contract virtually untradeable, especially if you want fair market value.

As far as your deal goes, that's absolutely a terrible terrible trade for Toronto. It's almost as if you are just sticking Toronto with random pieces and an old guy for a cap dump (Johnsson) in order to get him on the Pens. So not only in your scenario are the Leafs selling low, they are also not helping themselves in any clear area of play they need to upgrade.

As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely no reason to trade Mitch Marner, and I would go so far as to say, that as long as Dubas in the GM, I doubt Marner moves anywhere. For the sake of these AGMs and threads though, unless you can work out a deal that's fair for Toronto, I really see no reason to further discuss this. Kapanen, Johnsson, Kerfoot and Nylander will be long gone in my opinion before Marner goes anywhere, and that is a testament both to his skill, how he's valued on this team, and to his massive contract that, once again, you will have a very tough moving if you hope to get fair market value for him in a trade.


Curse you
Aug. 6, 2020 at 12:38 a.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
Okay, you're correct that the two central pieces of this package are on the decline. But do you have any evidence that they're mediocre? Cuz their SKATR stats show that they can still be great.

Hornqvist:

EcWvx7ZXsAErvNR?format=jpg&name=small

Johnson:

EcXxClYXsAAbFl9?format=jpg&name=medium

Also, Marner isn't anywhere near as good as Kessel was when he got traded (ask @mhockey91, she'll explain why), so why should he get a better return? Sure you can argue that he's younger, but he hasn't shown any signs that he's going to get better. If anything, he's gotten worse which given his cap hit will scare GMs away.

I probably shouldn't have called him a toxic presence, but from watching him play, I can see that he's holding the team back. Every game he tries to make highlight reel plays and perfect passes which the opposition shuts down, killing any momentum the Leafs generate. He never tries to adjust & play a more simple game by just getting in on the forecheck & cycling the puck. At this point, it shouldn't even matter what the return is for him. Getting rid of him would be like addition by subtraction.

I bet that would help on xbox. Go play that instead of caring about the nhl. It’s reduced to numbers, you’ll feel right at home.
Aug. 6, 2020 at 2:40 a.m.
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Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
Okay, you're correct that the two central pieces of this package are on the decline. But do you have any evidence that they're mediocre? Cuz their SKATR stats show that they can still be great.

Hornqvist:

EcWvx7ZXsAErvNR?format=jpg&name=small

Johnson:

EcXxClYXsAAbFl9?format=jpg&name=medium

Also, Marner isn't anywhere near as good as Kessel was when he got traded (ask @mhockey91, she'll explain why), so why should he get a better return? Sure you can argue that he's younger, but he hasn't shown any signs that he's going to get better. If anything, he's gotten worse which given his cap hit will scare GMs away.

I probably shouldn't have called him a toxic presence, but from watching him play, I can see that he's holding the team back. Every game he tries to make highlight reel plays and perfect passes which the opposition shuts down, killing any momentum the Leafs generate. He never tries to adjust & play a more simple game by just getting in on the forecheck & cycling the puck. At this point, it shouldn't even matter what the return is for him. Getting rid of him would be like addition by subtraction.


If and when the Leafs make any trades this offseason, they are going to find a fit, as opposed to just trading to remove a big contract. The Leafs clearly need a number of things, it's pretty clear to see, so unless a team is going to blow Toronto away with a crazy futures package of 1st rounders and top prospects, the Leafs are going to have to, with whatever they do, pick some particular areas in which they need improvement, most notable young controllable pieces on D, and work that out to make a deal. Let's look at Nashville for a second. Automatically, Fabbro would have to be included, then both to balance out some salary, and to better the Leafs overall defensive play, I would imagine Bonino and Scissons are included, then Nashville would likely have to include a 1st, if not another high pick as well. In such a deal, the Leafs hit a number of areas in which they clearly have some issues in, mainly defending overall, defenders and to get back into the 1st round of the 2020 draft. There are other teams out there with similar intriguing pieces, but if you are going to trade a Marner, or even a Nylander, ideally you send them to the Western Conference. In any event, I think the issue is completely moot because Marner is not getting traded.
Aug. 6, 2020 at 12:32 p.m.
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Apparently advanced analytics also say Jack Johnson is bad:

jackjohnson.png
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Aug. 6, 2020 at 3:54 p.m.
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Quoting: MG1986
If and when the Leafs make any trades this offseason, they are going to find a fit, as opposed to just trading to remove a big contract. The Leafs clearly need a number of things, it's pretty clear to see, so unless a team is going to blow Toronto away with a crazy futures package of 1st rounders and top prospects, the Leafs are going to have to, with whatever they do, pick some particular areas in which they need improvement, most notable young controllable pieces on D, and work that out to make a deal. Let's look at Nashville for a second. Automatically, Fabbro would have to be included, then both to balance out some salary, and to better the Leafs overall defensive play, I would imagine Bonino and Scissons are included, then Nashville would likely have to include a 1st, if not another high pick as well. In such a deal, the Leafs hit a number of areas in which they clearly have some issues in, mainly defending overall, defenders and to get back into the 1st round of the 2020 draft. There are other teams out there with similar intriguing pieces, but if you are going to trade a Marner, or even a Nylander, ideally you send them to the Western Conference. In any event, I think the issue is completely moot because Marner is not getting traded.


Yeah I can see the Leafs' setting Marner's return package to be something in that ballpark but unless he picks up his play, no team is gonna give that up.
Aug. 6, 2020 at 3:56 p.m.
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Quoting: mondo
Apparently advanced analytics also say Jack Johnson is bad:

jackjohnson.png


I showed you his stats from his CBJ days. I never denied he stunk with the Pens, but you have to consider that he plays with Schultz who is one of the worst defensive players in the league. If he was playing on Toronto w/Muzzin, he'd be much better.
Aug. 6, 2020 at 3:57 p.m.
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Quoting: Jack_
Lmfao still think that? After 5+ years of being awful and 3 straight years of being one of the worst defensemen in the NHL maybe you'll realize after two game where Johnson is almost single handedly sinking the penguins. Show the name above the picture with the skatr score that ranks in the 53rd percentile


The issue is Johnson & Schultz do not work together because neither are good enough defensively to play a shutdown role. When he played with Marino, he did great. https://www.pensburgh.com/2019/12/16/21023928/lets-have-an-honest-objective-talk-about-jack-johnson
 
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