Quoting: truculence67
Thank you for this post. Personally I’m of the opinion though that trading Nylander for a lesser d man plus peripheral assets would be a huge mistake (I.e. Manson, severson, savard). If dubas can’t land a true top pair RHD for nylander (or Nylander plus picks/prospects), and has to trade him, I’d rather Toronto fetch a package of blue chip picks/prospects and then go out and sign a UFa
This is probably decent, the problem is most of the RHD UFAs (other than Pietrangelo) are 2nd pair guys. That could work because Rielly is good enough to carry a 2nd pair quality guy, and Muzzin-Holl isn't a bad 2nd pair, but Sandin-whoever (Dermott, Lehtonen, Liljegren) is gonna be a weak 3rd pair because you either have 2 rookies, or a rookie and a guy playing their wrong side. Ideally I think for depth purposes getting two 2nd pair guys (one to play with Rielly, one to mentor Sandin on a short-term deal but move up with Muzzin in important situations) would be the play here, but you might need to dump more cap than just Nylander to accomplish that, and find some forward depth steals in free agency as well. Dermott would be gone as well if you sign 2 RHDs, there's just no room for him with Sandin and Lehtonen in the mix. I think this would be the best possible outcome, to sign say Hamonic to 6 years, and Gudas for two or three, run Rielly-Hamonic Muzzin-Holl Sandin-Gudas Lehtonen year 1, Rielly-Hamonic Muzzin-Gudas Sandin-Liljegren year 2, then when Rielly is UFA evaluate if Sandin-Liljegren can be your top pair, and Muzzin-Hamonic becomes the 2nd pair if Rielly walks, which by then will hopefully be just as good of a top 4. Or you re-sign Rielly and have Rielly-Hamonic/Sandin-Liljegren as your top 4 with Muzzin relegated to the 3rd pair for his last two years (or trade bait).
Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
I understand. The thing is, if all they can get for Nylander is a Manson or Savard, then I’d rather just keep him & cap dump Marner to sign Pietrangelo.
Fair take. I just don't see Pietrangelo leaving St. Louis. And you would have to have a Piet contract in hand before you look at dealing Marner, but also deal Marner before you sign him, or you're way too far over the cap and might get left to dry by other teams (yes you can be over the cap in the "summer," but you have to be compliant by season start and if the Leafs go all in on Piet before dealing Marner the other teams might hold out for a lower price, and/or just to hamstring the Leafs with non-compliance penalties). I think this is too intricate a scenario to end up happening unfortunately, even if it would really help the team.
Quoting: swinny
The real issue in dealing Nylander is found in truky assessing what is already on the RD for the Leafs.
I love Holl's game. He has and can play 18-20 minutes a game and look highly effective doing it. He may not be a flashy name, but is game is simple and economical. Is he a top 4 D? That is hard to answer as there just isn't a large enough body of work to answer it, but, if his play in the last half of the season is an indication, the answer is quite possibly.
Dermott seems to be developing into a bit of a two-wat defender. His development was undoubtedly hindered by the injury that kept him out of the lineup for the better part of the first half. Having said that, he didn't look bad playing those 18-20 minutes a night when Muzzin and Reilly were out. He is still young with upside. The obvious drawback is that he is a left shot.
Sandin looks sooooo good. Where he says he has experience playing RD, is that where you want to put him during this key development time? No way playing big minutes should be thought about right now, so I slot him as the left side of the bottom pairing.
This new guy Lehtonen seems to have to ability to move the puck very well. But can her defend? I don't know enough about him to begin to cast a guess. On a one year deal...... does it matter? Was he a placeholder for Liligren or sign for better depth?
And Liligren.... he is going to be good. But for me he isn't ready. One more year with the Marlies, and it's game on. He is developing into a sound defender - with not as much offensive game as once hoped. But he can defend.
Overall I look at the situation, and it's not bad. What became so clear in the Jacket series is the lack of patience for the Leafs (see Keefe outting JT and Matthews on the some line); a complete inability to get into the slot (see size up front, and where the Jackets were scoring, and just how good that 4th line was in the last 3 games), and not using the point nearly enough (so much play seemed to be below the hash marks), then just stopped skating with a 3-0 lead and Keefe (for me), was just flat out out coached. Defensively..... they actually weren't that bad. Except for Ceci.
I for one see a blueline still developing. When your in win now mode that's a conumdrum for sure - but I just don't think it's the one to necessitate moving one of the big 4.
Moving AJ clears enough cap space to hit the UFA market for a short term solutuon that can fit a bill - Gudas or Hamonic for example. It's too strong a UFA class for D for them to see a pay raise, and with a flat cap may see a haircut. This move isn't about playijg big minutes, but the right minutes. When up by 1 with 5 to play, leaning on Muzzin and Gudas with a side of Holl sounds way better than what the Leafs had this year......
With ALL this said, the only deal that makes sense IF Nylander is on the table is the Arizona deal. Demers IS that short term solutuon and Garland is a great replacement for Nylander in the top 6.
I just think there are other solutions.
I agree with your individual takes on the defensemen, but here's my view on Holl: I think he's okay with Muzzin and that's an okay second pair, but on his own he's not a top 4 dman, he needs that reliable partner on the other side. It's fine that he's getting carried if he's capable of completing the pair and not looking terrible, but without Muzzin he's a 3rd pair guy at best imo. Sounds like Lehtonen's gonna be 3RD, PP2 if nothing changes. I agree Liljegren probably doesn't make the team out of camp, maybe he earns some time halfway through the year, and is full time in 2021? Don't want to rush him. Arizona deal could be on the table, they need a PR win after the Chayka situation and might be willing to give up Garland. Demers is probably on the table anyway with just 1 year to go, and that might work for the Leafs, easing Liljegren in as well. It's gonna be a tricky situation for Dubas to manage for sure, but it is fun to try and work out possible deals on here, as long as they aren't too unrealistic lol.
Quoting: Admiral_Salty
Edmonton: I can see a package around Larsson for Nylander if you’re set on a RD. Some talk of a possible Nurse+ for Nylander+ has been swirling as well
With Muzzin, Sandin, and Rielly on the left there isn't really a fit for Nurse imo. Larsson is worth significantly less than Nylander, if they were going that route it would probably involve Pulju or a 1st, plus another minor asset going to Toronto.
Quoting: aadoyle
Half of these are bad, Islanders could be an interesting choice as Pulock for Nylander would be a good 1 for 1 for both sides. But still
There are better trades for him to be had, for instance
1. NJ sends (Foote + Severson + their last 1st) Toronto sends (Nylander)
2. Nashville sends (Arvidsson +Fabbro+ 2nd) Toronto sends (Nylander)
Pulock only works if NYI feels Dobson is ready for a top 4 role imo. I know he's going to be really good, I just don't know if that'll happen next year. That New Jersey trade is drastically underselling Severson's value imo, he's actually been pretty good and he's signed for 3 more years at a reasonable price. They wouldn't add both Foote and a 1st, maybe one of those. The Nashville deal looks better, the pick might be a little high but Arvi would find a home and Fabbro should develop into a decent player, him and Liljegren on the right side long term would be pretty dependable.
Quoting: Gordon_Bombay
A lot of effort for a lot of bad trades
Thank you for completely missing the point and not contributing anything. Feel free to leave.
Quoting: MaxDomi13
Petry half retained extended and Domi for Nylander? I think MTL needs to add more but what do you think
Interesting, is Petry available? I was under the impression Montreal wanted to keep him but he'd definitely be a target if available. Also are they looking for more wingers? That deal kinda depends on how much Domi signs for, and Petry half-retained is definitely needed here. I don't know if they would bank on keeping Petry, he might be too expensive/ask for too much term for a 33 year old, but Nylander is a lot to give up for a rental. Montreal might have to add a sweetener due to Domi's off year. An interesting trade idea, I woulda said this made a lot of sense before this playoffs but I'm less sure now, I think Montreal might think they're contenders now and go for the playoffs next year lol