Hey took my idea very cool! Fun.

My Issues with your team:

1) That top line is a terrible choice IMO
A.Stamkos is not even close to the best option at 1C you could have went with, but if you like him, then fair enough.
B.Nylander is not a first line player IMO.
C.Also could have done a lot better on the left side, Pacioretty is not a great 1st liner, nor is he worth 7 mil IMO

2.Spurgeon is a wildly overpaid 2nd pairing D IMO
3. Schmidt is hardly a top pairing D

Thanks for your take on my fun game tho

Oh man...
If I think really hard, maybe ROR is a better choice at 1C - and I think roughly 8m pays for an average 1C.
So... Either you split right and left wingers - and in that case I'd love to see you mention 15-20 wingers on each side comfortably better than Pacioretty and Nylander. Patches still has amazing underlying numbers and is both solid possession-wise and as a goal scorer. Nylander is a play driver and if anything I think he's slightly too good on this contract.

Spurgeon is almost *exactly* the 15th best D in the league, no? If not I want to know which 15-20 guys that are better than him, and remember, again, the player should probably be paid 7-8m to be a #1D.
I used Schmidt as a roughly #45D in the league, and getting paid as that. You don't have to agree with any of my picks, but it echoes kind of empty when the argument goes "I don't think so". I'd love to have a discussion, and maybe you don't care enough to put in the effort, and that's fine. But I'm not about to change my mind based on "IMO, IMO" without premises!

for point B...if being on pace for 37 goals and 71 points pre-corona doesn't make you a first line player, I don't really know what does

Valid points. All of it.

I'm not going to split wingers into left and right, just going to name the wingers who are on fair deals 6-10 and are better than those two in one list.

Ovechkin, Gaudreau, Hall, Rantaanen, Giroux, Connor, Forsberg, Kucherov, Stone, Wheeler, tarasenko, Kessel. Theres 12 who are easily better than pacioretty and Nylander, again it's my opinion because that's all I can really go off of, but if you want statistical information every player in my list has had a higher single season point total than Nylander or Pacioretty have ever had.

Spurgeon 15th best D in the league objectively? Not even close. 15th in the league based on 7-10 mil cap hit, maybe. here's players making 7-10 who are better than Spurgeon, again sorry to disappoint but gonna have to have an opinion.
Josi, Carlson, Pietrangelo, Burns, Chabot, Weber, Letang (when healthy). So not many guys in that 7-10 salary range better than Spurgeon. But I think he's overpaid. Only worth about 5-6 IMO which then allows me to place a whole slew of other Dmen ahead of him. Love Spurgeon at a 6 cap hit, not at 7+ hes a solid 2nd D IMO.

Sorry for all the opinion but that's what a discussion is. Interested to hear why you think Spurgeon is so good.

So I don't know if you fully follow my reasoning - I think most players on your list are better than the ones I inserted into my lineup, but my idea is to either get two wingers at roughly #30 for wingers in the league, paid at that price. Either that, or get roughly the #15 wingers for each side.

Yeah I'm kind of big on numbers slightly beyond point totals. I think point totals sometimes are way too generous or cheap in terms of assigning player value. Phil Kessel racks up loads of point but gets massively outscored on the ice. Forsberg doesn't produce as much, but is driving both his own line and most of his team's offence, while also playing really solid defence. I have Forsberg as a top10 winger, I don't have Kessel in my top 20 or 30. It's just so weird to me how people can knock Nylander down any list for "not playing defense" when in reality his numbers show way better D- and neutral zone play than a lot of the guys on these lists. Also - guys like Rantanen playing with maybe the best player in the league and doing a lot of 'empty calory' scoring, or Connor - picking up a lot of the points from Wheeler's or Scheifele's creation are knocked down a bit for me. Nylander, as examplified, did play with Matthews, but also transported way more pucks and created way more opportunities for Matthews than Raantanen did by tapping in open netter off of MacKinnon rushes (simplified ofc). I think a lot of the time people intuitively judge player performance, and then try to justify it with numbers. I try not to do that.

When Spurgeon is on the ice his team outperformes the opposition a crazy amount in terms of shot generation etc. I think he's actually top 10 by most models. But regardless, when you start actually counting it's my experience you run out quicker than you think. Hedman, Ellis, Karlsson, Hughes, Makar, Fox, Pietrangelo, Giordano, Josi, Hamilton, McAvoy, and maybe Letang are the guys I'd feel good with placing above him - but when we're in the Burns, Carlson, Jones, Werenski, Chabot, Krug, Morrissey, Rielly, Slavin, Lindholm, Weber etc range I think he kind of slots in there. The 15th highest paid defenseman is Ekblad, and I'd have him as a candidate here too - and he's making 75k less.

In the end, we don't have to agree, but I enjoy presenting justifications for my thinking to have more discussions and potentially improve my mindset in regards to these things!

Yeah good logic beyond all of your reasonings for sure. Agree to disagree. That's why things like Norris' trophies and such are never clear-cut, opinions vary. The biggest argument I have against Nylander, and I have to preface this by saying I am a lifelong leafs fan. And I think you're going to hate me saying this, but it's the eyetest. He just looks so laxidazical and like he couldnt give a crap so often on the ice that it makes him hard to like. The amount of floating around his D zone and lack of heart (by appearance) gives off the impression that he simply doesn't care to win or lose. That's my knock against Nylander. it's the lack of intangibles. Not saying he doesn't produce, he just doesn't play like someone I'd want on my team. Might have a different opinion if I knew him personally, but as a fan that's th eimpression he gives off.

I disagree about Nylander, is Taylor Hall a 1st liner? Nylander has better potential then Hall and plays better. I could list more names of players who are first liners that Nylander is better than.

Hard to argue against Hall when he won a Hart trophy, something Nylander will never come close to. Need heart to win a Hart

Spurgeon could probably be replaced by Weber/Hedman (just off the top of my head).

No, I get it. And I appreciate you so much for saying this, because I think it's what it's truly about. People's knock on Nylander is that he *looks* lazy - and I agree. But when I look at his numbers and how it actually works out, I start to see someone playing efficiently, and the more you look through this new lens you realise he never overcommits on D, and yet is still often ready to take possession for a Matthews break out pass etc. I think that very human and intuitive approach is understandable, but Nylander is in my book a perfect litmus test for if someone is thinking about their biases or not.

The next time you watch him, try going in with the mentality that "Nylander is pretty alright on D, let's see what he does well". Cause otherwise you might be perpetualizing a sort of flawed thinking. You might still come to a different conclusion, but I think it's pretty good to challenge ones mindset at times!

I think Weber is closer - I think Hedman is at least a top 5 D in the league, so idk how to justify that when going for roughly #15

Yeah I would have to throw Hedman in the underpaid category for sure. He's arguably the leagues best overall Dman.

I mean I didn't put Hall on here cause I thought he was too good and made a bit too much money

Yeah it's just tough when you see a guy like Hyman out there absolutely busting his butt every second and then Nylander hops over the boards and floats around for 30 seconds, even when he does score. You just watch him and constantly think man this Nylander guy COULD be so fricken good if he just worked as hard as that guy. Like he has all the tools necessary to be a phenomenal hockey player if he just put the effort in during games. But I get what your saying, every analytics model loves him. And I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. You'd be doing an injustice to yourself to base your entire opinion on numbers and analytics. Just the same as you would be doing yourself an injustice if you totally base your opinion on the eyetest and disvalue the metrics. So in reality Nylander's true worth is probably somewhere in the middle of where you and I see him. But, I am happy with his contract and happy he's a leaf, regardless of the stress he causes me lol.

This is cool! I think I'll make one.

Nylander and Stammer are good choices here, but I do agree about Pac.