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Fair Question Mark

Created by: Leafs4life34
Team: 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Nov. 6, 2020
Published: Nov. 6, 2020
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
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TOR
  1. 2021 6th round pick (MIN)
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2021
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2022
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
22$81,500,000$80,884,491$0$0$615,509
Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$2,250,000$2,250,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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$12,500,000$12,500,000
C
UFA - 6
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$6,962,366$6,962,366
RW
UFA - 4
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$1,645,000$1,645,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$11,000,000$11,000,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 5
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$10,903,000$10,903,000
RW
UFA - 5
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$900,000$900,000
RW, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$3,500,000$3,500,000
LW, C, RW
UFA - 3
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$1,500,000$1,500,000
RW, LW
NTC
UFA - 1
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$925,000$925,000
RW, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$700,000$700,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$700,000$700,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
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$5,000,000$5,000,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
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$5,000,000$5,000,000
LD/RD
NMC
UFA - 4
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$4,500,000$4,500,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$5,625,000$5,625,000
LD
NMC
UFA - 4
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$874,125$874,125
LD/RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$1,650,000$1,650,000
G
UFA - 2
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$925,000$925,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$1,000,000$1,000,000
RD
NTC
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
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$700,000$700,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs
$750,000$750,000
LD
UFA - 1

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Nov. 6, 2020 at 2:27 p.m.
#1
Oil Country Rising
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Easy pass by the Oilers.
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 2:31 p.m.
#2
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What is that Oilers trade haha! Rather Koskinen than Andersen. McDavid has way more value than Matthews, and Robertson
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 2:37 p.m.
#3
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Edited Nov. 6, 2020 at 2:54 p.m.
no thanks, I'm taking matthews over mcdavid, call me crazy

(All situations) 64GP |34G|63A|97P|18 blocks|75 giveaways|53 takeaways|37 hits|14 PIM taken / 24 PIM drawn| 22min TOI average | $12.500 AAV
(All situations) 70GP |47G|33A|80P|60 blocks|48 giveaways|78 takeaways|40 hits|4 PIM taken / 14 PIM drawn| 21min TOI average | $11.634 AAV

(5v5) 64GP |22G|30A|52P|17 blocks|60 giveaways|49 takeaways|32 hits|13 PIM taken / 20 PIM drawn| 17min TOI average | $12.500 AAV
(5v5) 70GP |30G|17A|47P|55 blocks|44 giveaways|75 takeaways|40 hits|3 PIM taken / 9 PIM drawn| 17min TOI average | $11.634 AAV

I'd maybe take mcdavid, but not at the price of losing andersen and robertson who has future stud potential
Nov. 6, 2020 at 2:38 p.m.
#4
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No from Oilers
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 3:14 p.m.
#5
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
no thanks, I'm taking matthews over mcdavid, call me crazy

(All situations) 64GP |34G|63A|97P|18 blocks|75 giveaways|53 takeaways|37 hits|14 PIM taken / 24 PIM drawn| 22min TOI average | $12.500 AAV
(All situations) 70GP |47G|33A|80P|60 blocks|48 giveaways|78 takeaways|40 hits|4 PIM taken / 14 PIM drawn| 21min TOI average | $11.634 AAV

(5v5) 64GP |22G|30A|52P|17 blocks|60 giveaways|49 takeaways|32 hits|13 PIM taken / 20 PIM drawn| 17min TOI average | $12.500 AAV
(5v5) 70GP |30G|17A|47P|55 blocks|44 giveaways|75 takeaways|40 hits|3 PIM taken / 9 PIM drawn| 17min TOI average | $11.634 AAV

I'd maybe take mcdavid, but not at the price of losing andersen and robertson who has future stud potential


hahahahahahahahah " I'd maybe take mcdavid " and you're one year from losing andersen and robertson will be a top6 player at best, not elite or franchise

I guess the " delusional leafs fan " fits well
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 3:24 p.m.
#6
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honestly if tables were switched and you had McDavid and we had Matthews, because it is unanimous fact among people PAID to think hockey that 97 is better than 34, I would have no problem echoing that sentiment as a fan of the game.

Take fanboying out the window, take home team bias out the window, leave the ego at the door. Whatever advantages 34 may have on the other side of the puck just CANNOT overtake the differences between the two as players. Think about that for a sec, again the experts have weighed in about this and are all in agreement: McDavid is better than Matthews.

Matthews may score 5-10 more, but McDavid sets up 40-50 more. Even if Matthews prevents 20 more goals than McDavid, that's still a net gain of 15-25 points.

Certainly doesn't mean Matthews is crap. He's still a top 5-6 player in the league, but there's a significant gap between the top 2 and the next tier.

Name me one legit mainstream neutral national sportscaster, analyst, or executive that ranks Matthews ahead of McDavid and ya'll can keep thinking that way. Anything else is just shallow fangirling with a side of denial.
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 3:29 p.m.
#7
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Quoting: bhavikp27
hahahahahahahahah " I'd maybe take mcdavid " and you're one year from losing andersen and robertson will be a top6 player at best, not elite or franchise

I guess the " delusional leafs fan " fits well


Quoting: Miguelicious
honestly if tables were switched and you had McDavid and we had Matthews, because it is unanimous fact among people PAID to think hockey that 97 is better than 34, I would have no problem echoing that sentiment as a fan of the game.

Take fanboying out the window, take home team bias out the window, leave the ego at the door. Whatever advantages 34 may have on the other side of the puck just CANNOT overtake the differences between the two as players. Think about that for a sec, again the experts have weighed in about this and are all in agreement: McDavid is better than Matthews.

Matthews may score 5-10 more, but McDavid sets up 40-50 more. Even if Matthews prevents 20 more goals than McDavid, that's still a net gain of 15-25 points.

Certainly doesn't mean Matthews is crap. He's still a top 5-6 player in the league, but there's a significant gap between the top 2 and the next tier.

Name me one legit mainstream neutral national sportscaster, analyst, or executive that ranks Matthews ahead of McDavid and ya'll can keep thinking that way. Anything else is just shallow fangirling with a side of denial.


I'd rather andersen for a year than be stuck with Koskinen for 2 more years at that cap hit

Also, Robertson as a top 6 player on an ELC? That has no value?

As for Matthews vs. McDavid, matthews is better defensively and a better goal scorer. McDavid is way faster, has better hockey sense in general and is a way better passer

To act like one is WORLDS above the other man, idk. Matthews was on pace for 55 goals this year. He is a top 2-3 goal scorer in the league. McDavid is flashier and scores more dazzling goals, he's uber talented and would prob light it up on a team like the leafs. McDavid is better ofc but we're debating between like #1 or #2 vs. #4 or #5. Not a world of difference
Nov. 6, 2020 at 3:46 p.m.
#8
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
I'd rather andersen for a year than be stuck with Koskinen for 2 more years at that cap hit

Also, Robertson as a top 6 player on an ELC? That has no value?

As for Matthews vs. McDavid, matthews is better defensively and a better goal scorer. McDavid is way faster, has better hockey sense in general and is a way better passer

To act like one is WORLDS above the other man, idk. Matthews was on pace for 55 goals this year. He is a top 2-3 goal scorer in the league. McDavid is flashier and scores more dazzling goals, he's uber talented and would prob light it up on a team like the leafs. McDavid is better ofc but we're debating between like #1 or #2 vs. #4 or #5. Not a world of difference


Koskinen wasn't bad last year. And never said Robertson has no value and he also isn't a top6 player right now.

Matthews isn't the second best center in the league.
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 3:49 p.m.
#9
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
I'd rather andersen for a year than be stuck with Koskinen for 2 more years at that cap hit

Also, Robertson as a top 6 player on an ELC? That has no value?

As for Matthews vs. McDavid, matthews is better defensively and a better goal scorer. McDavid is way faster, has better hockey sense in general and is a way better passer

To act like one is WORLDS above the other man, idk. Matthews was on pace for 55 goals this year. He is a top 2-3 goal scorer in the league. McDavid is flashier and scores more dazzling goals, he's uber talented and would prob light it up on a team like the leafs. McDavid is better ofc but we're debating between like #1 or #2 vs. #4 or #5. Not a world of difference


That's a step in the right direction.

If you can take the top 1 player for the price of the top 4th or 5th player that's what's normally called an upgrade. To deny such an offer for any reason at all beside longevity (ie, if McDavid was 30 and Matthews was 21) is not being realistic at all.

Shift to draft picks and all of a sudden it makes more sense. 2015 Oilers have the 1st overall, BUF has the 2nd overall. McDavid and Eichel are on the board. As prospects with 0 NHL games played, there really isnt much separating the two as they were both coined as "generational talents"; McDavid could've flopped, Eichel could shine etc. But, you could bet your ass the price to move up 1 spot would've been MULTIPLE assets to ensure they could have power of choice.

Im not saying there's a 1st vs 100th levels of difference, but it is significant enough for TOR to have to pay extra to get McDavid, and not the other way around like how you're thinking.
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 4:17 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: Miguelicious
That's a step in the right direction.

If you can take the top 1 player for the price of the top 4th or 5th player that's what's normally called an upgrade. To deny such an offer for any reason at all beside longevity (ie, if McDavid was 30 and Matthews was 21) is not being realistic at all.

Shift to draft picks and all of a sudden it makes more sense. 2015 Oilers have the 1st overall, BUF has the 2nd overall. McDavid and Eichel are on the board. As prospects with 0 NHL games played, there really isnt much separating the two as they were both coined as "generational talents"; McDavid could've flopped, Eichel could shine etc. But, you could bet your ass the price to move up 1 spot would've been MULTIPLE assets to ensure they could have power of choice.

Im not saying there's a 1st vs 100th levels of difference, but it is significant enough for TOR to have to pay extra to get McDavid, and not the other way around like how you're thinking.


Quoting: bhavikp27
Koskinen wasn't bad last year. And never said Robertson has no value and he also isn't a top6 player right now.

Matthews isn't the second best center in the league.


TOR is definitely paying MORE to get mcdavid, I never said they wouldn't be. I just don't know if the difference between them is Andersen and Roberston. It would prob have to be, to get EDM to give him up, but that's why I wouldn't do it. Matthews is a top 5 player in his own right, I'd rather just stick with him. If it was 1 for 1 of course I'd take mcdavid lmao

Also, you misunderstood @bhavikp27 , I meant McDavid being #1 or #2 (vs. Mackinnon) and Matthews being #4 or #5
Nov. 6, 2020 at 4:27 p.m.
#11
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
no thanks, I'm taking matthews over mcdavid, call me crazy

...

I'd maybe take mcdavid, but not at the price of losing andersen and robertson who has future stud potential


Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
TOR is definitely paying MORE to get mcdavid, I never said they wouldn't be. I just don't know if the difference between them is Andersen and Roberston. It would prob have to be, to get EDM to give him up, but that's why I wouldn't do it. Matthews is a top 5 player in his own right, I'd rather just stick with him. If it was 1 for 1 of course I'd take mcdavid lmao

Also, you misunderstood @bhavikp27 , I meant McDavid being #1 or #2 (vs. Mackinnon) and Matthews being #4 or #5


certainly a far cry from what you initially said though, eh?

going from "hesitant" to "well no duh" lmao
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 4:30 p.m.
#12
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Edited Nov. 6, 2020 at 4:41 p.m.
Quoting: Miguelicious
certainly a far cry from what you initially said though, eh?

going from "hesitant" to "well no duh" lmao


I meant I'd maybe take McDavid for Matthews, Andersen and Robertson. I didn't mean one for one. Matthews is seriously underrated lol, he's the an elite goalscorer and way better defensively than mcdavid. The difference between them isn't worth an elite goaltender and a grade A prospect imo

There are significant parts of the game Matthews does exceedingly better than McDavid. It's not like across the board McDavid is a superior player.

Even if we take last year, as a full season, 5v5 Matthews only had 20 less points in 10 less games playing 3 minutes less a night. Matthews, healthy, under a full year of Sheldon Keefe playing him 22+ minutes a night is a lock for 50 goals, maybe even 60. Add in his defensive play and I'd be hesitant to swap the two especially for a steep price of a goalie and a grade A prospect.
Nov. 6, 2020 at 4:51 p.m.
#13
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
I meant I'd maybe take McDavid for Matthews, Andersen and Robertson. I didn't mean one for one. Matthews is seriously underrated lol, he's the an elite goalscorer and way better defensively than mcdavid. The difference between them isn't worth an elite goaltender and a grade A prospect


1. that was no "maybe", let's not sugarcoat that.
2. no one was arguing how good Matthews is
3. let's pump the brakes on Andersen being "elite". As a starter he's never broken .920 and has been going down since coming from ANA
4. you're right, the price for McDavid isnt Matthews, Robertson, and 1 year of Andersen. It's more than that.
Nov. 6, 2020 at 5:02 p.m.
#14
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Quoting: Miguelicious
1. that was no "maybe", let's not sugarcoat that.
2. no one was arguing how good Matthews is
3. let's pump the brakes on Andersen being "elite". As a starter he's never broken .920 and has been going down since coming from ANA
4. you're right, the price for McDavid isnt Matthews, Robertson, and 1 year of Andersen. It's more than that.


EDM would want more than that, but the value isn't worth even that. Also, the whole proposal of this trade invites a discussion as to how good Matthews is vs. McDavid right? That's not an important thing to bring up?

Goals/60 since 16-17, Matthews is 1st, McDavid is 25th, MacKinnon is 29th. Points/60 Matthews is 10th, McDavid is 3rd, Mackinnon is 11th. Defensively Matthews is way better, blocks shots, tied for most takeaways in the whole league, not to mention WAY better on faceoffs

Matthews was chronically underplayed for the first 3 seasons of his career by a coach who hated him, McDavid on the other hand played 25+ plus minutes some nights and was relied on for literally every single shift

McDavid is flashier, faster, and a generational passer, but Matthews is essentially the equivalent in terms of goal scoring. McDavid is better overall and the 'sexier' player to have on the team, but I don't think it's a radical concept to at least consider keeping Matthews over McDavid, esp when it's not 1 for 1
Nov. 6, 2020 at 5:13 p.m.
#15
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
EDM would want more than that, but the value isn't worth even that. Also, the whole proposal of this trade invites a discussion as to how good Matthews is vs. McDavid right? That's not an important thing to bring up?

Goals/60 since 16-17, Matthews is 1st, McDavid is 25th, MacKinnon is 29th. Points/60 Matthews is 10th, McDavid is 3rd, Mackinnon is 11th. Defensively Matthews is way better, blocks shots, tied for most takeaways in the whole league, not to mention WAY better on faceoffs

McDavid is flashier, faster, and a generational passer, but Matthews is essentially the equivalent in terms of goal scoring. McDavid is better overall and the 'sexier' player to have on the team, but I don't think it's a radical concept to at least consider keeping Matthews over McDavid, esp when it's not 1 for 1


The main reasoning for the giveaway fallacy is the fact that McDavid is a puck possession player. He drives in 1v4 almost half the time and often gets a half-decent scoring attempt off despite those odds. Matthews benefits from this because he is a finisher, not really touching the puck unless he's firing it in.

Secondly, McDavid is always looking to pass. Only when there are no open options does he take the shot himself. Matthews is a shot attempt machine. 339 vs 504 to be exact. So you see, on 200-ish more attempts, your guy pot in, what, 5-10 more? This suggests McDavid has a very underrated and extremely UNDERUSED shot.

Anything else while I'm at it, champ?
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 5:20 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: Miguelicious
The main reasoning for the giveaway fallacy is the fact that McDavid is a puck possession player. He drives in 1v4 almost half the time and often gets a half-decent scoring attempt off despite those odds. Matthews benefits from this because he is a finisher, not really touching the puck unless he's firing it in.

Secondly, McDavid is always looking to pass. Only when there are no open options does he take the shot himself. Matthews is a shot attempt machine. 339 vs 504 to be exact. So you see, on 200-ish more attempts, your guy pot in, what, 5-10 more? This suggests McDavid has a very underrated and extremely UNDERUSED shot.

Anything else while I'm at it, champ?


All very valid points I didn't consider

I concede, McDavid is better. Add in the Canadian factor and I would love him on the leafs, there's no denying that.

Still, Robertson is a question mark and I love FredEx, but ik Edmonton would laugh this out of the room regardless because you can't improve by trading a guy like McDavid
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 5:33 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
All very valid points I didn't consider

I concede, McDavid is better. Add in the Canadian factor and I would love him on the leafs, there's no denying that.

Still, Robertson is a question mark and I love FredEx, but ik Edmonton would laugh this out of the room regardless because you can't improve by trading a guy like McDavid


It becomes a question of what we were going to plug the void left by McDavid would be. Matthews, I maintain is a fantastic player, but he isnt a line driver (or he isnt being utilized as one) and would need a setup man (akin to what he has currently) to pull off the same numbers he's been getting the Leafs thus far.

Also, consider this: McDavid, after Draisaitl left to center his own line, played with bottom six guys. You have Matthews with proven top linemates in Nylander and Hyman. We had McD playing with the likes of Ennis (meh), Archibald (yikes), and Kassian (not bad but could do better).

We finally have decent (compared to last year) linemates for him and it should excite everyone who loves the sport.

Man you really made me work for those arguments hahah. What a great way to stretch the brain muscles on a slow ass Friday in the office. Cheers to both our teams this year!
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Nov. 6, 2020 at 5:42 p.m.
#18
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Quoting: Miguelicious
It becomes a question of what we were going to plug the void left by McDavid would be. Matthews, I maintain is a fantastic player, but he isnt a line driver (or he isnt being utilized as one) and would need a setup man (akin to what he has currently) to pull off the same numbers he's been getting the Leafs thus far.

Also, consider this: McDavid, after Draisaitl left to center his own line, played with bottom six guys. You have Matthews with proven top linemates in Nylander and Hyman. We had McD playing with the likes of Ennis (meh), Archibald (yikes), and Kassian (not bad but could do better).

We finally have decent (compared to last year) linemates for him and it should excite everyone who loves the sport.

Man you really made me work for those arguments hahah. What a great way to stretch the brain muscles on a slow ass Friday in the office. Cheers to both our teams this year!


lol yeah, part of the leaf's secret weapon is marner, I think. Every guy he plays with has a career year lmfao. He's a primary assist machine. McDavid with a guy like that or a sniper like willy would be frightening, I'll admit

definitely hope our teams find success, McDavid is always a thrill to watch lol

I always love a good debate smile
Nov. 6, 2020 at 5:48 p.m.
#19
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Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
lol yeah, part of the leaf's secret weapon is marner, I think. Every guy he plays with has a career year lmfao. He's a primary assist machine. McDavid with a guy like that or a sniper like willy would be frightening, I'll admit

definitely hope our teams find success, McDavid is always a thrill to watch lol


I admit it's embarrassing as hell we can't outfit McD's wings with ACTUAL proven top 6 talent. Hyman-McDavid-Nylander is what wet-dreams are made of, on either team.

Then the 2nd line is either Nuge-Drai-Yam or Mikhayev-Tavares-Marner?

Game-fricken-Over.
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Nov. 7, 2020 at 5:40 a.m.
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Matthews may score more goals than mcdavid, but its basically because mcdavid is a pass first guy. Recall when everyone thought Crosby wasn't much of a goal scorer and he went and shut everyone up? Trust me, if mcdavid went full out goals scoring first, he'd blow Matthews away.
 
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