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If Sandin and Robertson Have Great Camps

Created by: GMRyan
Team: 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Nov. 12, 2020
Published: Nov. 13, 2020
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Well wouldn’t this be a wonderful problem to have.

Sandin and Robertson come to camp just ripped and their game is awesome. Sandin outplays Dermott and Robertson outplays Barabanov and Boyd. 2 problems arise from this

1. AHL season may or may not happen and Robertson can’t go to the AHL
2. Leafs don’t have enough cap space to allow both to stay up with the NHL roster and would have to cut at least 1 player

What do the Leafs do?

Make a move? Or rotate him up and down using his 2 way contract?
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22$81,500,000$81,865,575$0$0-$365,575
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Nov. 13, 2020 at 9:30 a.m.
#1
Save Ukrane, end war
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I think Sandin is the odd man out here. For reasons you pointed out, I think that there isn't a scenario where he impresses enough in camp to win a spot, as I think it would mean having to trade someone or losing Lehtonen if they were to send him down. One possible scenario would be that there's a significant injury in camp and Sandin would open the day in the minors but as soon as they can plunk that person on LTIR then they could recall him and potentially play opening night.

If there's no AHL this year though, it'll be a shame for Sandin and Lilgren as it'll be hard for them to continue to develop. If there's special rules around a taxi squad I wouldn't be surprised if the bottom 3 leafs D get used to some sort of rotation to get them all some looks.
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Nov. 13, 2020 at 9:35 a.m.
#2
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Sandin should get loaned out to the KHL and Robertson should be on the Petes. Call Robertson up towards the end of the season (playoff time) but make sure you don't burn one of his ELC seasons.
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Nov. 13, 2020 at 9:37 a.m.
#3
GO LEAFS GO
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Note: Cuz of Robertsons' contract, he can't go to the AHL. He's in the same situation as Marner was in 2016-17.

Also, what i've heard about Boyd, he's hear as a depth guy meaning he'll probably find himself in the AHL.


What are you doing Sleeping on Mikko Lehtonen?
Nov. 13, 2020 at 9:41 a.m.
#4
GO LEAFS GO
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Sandin should get loaned out to the KHL and Robertson should be on the Petes. Call Robertson up towards the end of the season (playoff time) but make sure you don't burn one of his ELC seasons.


I like the Sandin idea but, you should just send him down to the AHL and let him tear it up. I think the Leafs, will give Robertson the best shot at winning the Calder so, he'll probably be in the NHL. The thing is, we don't know if, the NHL will expand rosters like, they did for the "pre" postseason & playin or round-robin/postseason
Nov. 13, 2020 at 9:44 a.m.
#5
sen krak fan
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You think that this will happen?
Nov. 13, 2020 at 9:49 a.m.
#6
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Quoting: mapleleafs_queen9434
I like the Sandin idea but, you should just send him down to the AHL and let him tear it up. I think the Leafs, will give Robertson the best shot at winning the Calder so, he'll probably be in the NHL. The thing is, we don't know if, the NHL will expand rosters like, they did for the "pre" postseason & playin or round-robin/postseason


The NBA has already moved forward with a planned 70 game season starting in mid December, yet Bettman can't make a plan. I fear we'd only see a 48-60 game season.
Nov. 13, 2020 at 10:32 a.m.
#7
Meh
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If the Leafs' care only about winning this year (which is an absurd thing to do for them, but I think they are hell-bent on that view) they will most likely go:

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Holl
Lehtonen - Bogo
Dermott

With some changing between Holl, Lehtonen and Dermott.

But it is very short term thinking. Lehtonen is UFA in a year. If he is good enough to be a top-4 then they can't afford to re-sign him anyway. If he is not good enough top be a top-4 then there is no sense re-signing him, especially as he will be 27 in January. Either way he is taking ice time that could be used for developing a younger D long-term.

Holl is 29 in January and is not very good. If someone like Dermott, who is 5 years younger can do as good, or almost as good a job in that role then they should be in it.

What the Leafs should be doing (depending on how players look at camp) is:

Rielly - Brodie
Muzzin - Dermott
Sandin - Bogo
Holl

Lehtonen traded. Holl subbing in, but also being kept as a D who meets the exposure qualifications for the expansion draft.

This gives Dermott the chance to show whether or not he can play on the right, and in the top-4 with a partner who will mentor him much he did for Holl the year before (and if he can't they have Holl available who they know can do a passable job). Sandin gets the opportunity to actually be mentored into the NHL with an appropriate partner, not the gong show he had to deal with last year.

I doubt that will happen. If Sandin is sent down they are better off trading him. As Dubas has long said, and as every NHL team knows, if you want to develop a top-4 then the most harmful thing you can do is send them up and down from the NHL to AHL when they are young. And he has already thoroughly violated that main principle, and I doubt he will stop now.
Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:06 a.m.
#8
Biased Opinion
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Sounds like a great problem to have
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Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:22 a.m.
#9
In Pridham we trust
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Sandin should get loaned out to the KHL and Robertson should be on the Petes. Call Robertson up towards the end of the season (playoff time) but make sure you don't burn one of his ELC seasons.


So no NHL time for Sandin this year?

Which would mean Marincin would be a couple injuries away form the NHL. Great!!
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Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:24 a.m.
#10
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Sandin should get loaned out to the KHL and Robertson should be on the Petes. Call Robertson up towards the end of the season (playoff time) but make sure you don't burn one of his ELC seasons.


Quoting: mapleleafs_queen9434
Note: Cuz of Robertsons' contract, he can't go to the AHL. He's in the same situation as Marner was in 2016-17.

Also, what i've heard about Boyd, he's hear as a depth guy meaning he'll probably find himself in the AHL.


What are you doing Sleeping on Mikko Lehtonen?


Interesting option for Robertson could be loaning him to the KHL or the Swiss league. Don’t know if that’s allowed for North American skaters and haven’t heard any rumors that it might happen, but to me it seems like it would be a good solution for his development if he doesn’t make the leafs
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Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:25 a.m.
#11
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Quoting: Barilko14
So no NHL time for Sandin this year?

Which would mean Marincin would be a couple injuries away form the NHL. Great!!


Dubas/Keefe loves Marincin.
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Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:28 a.m.
#12
Meh
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Quoting: Barilko14
So no NHL time for Sandin this year?

Which would mean Marincin would be a couple injuries away form the NHL. Great!!


Young players like Sandin should never, ever be used as injury replacements. Despite the hatred for Marincin he is an ideal #7/8 D for injury replacement. Last year Dallas made it to the Stanley Cup finals with Hanley, Fedun and Johns as their Ds for injury replacements - aged 28, 29 and 32. All journeymen D. Tampa used Schenn, Rutta and Coburn as their Ds for injury replacements - aged 31, 30 and 35. One journeyman and two has beens.
Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:30 a.m.
#13
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Try to be real
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Dubas/Keefe loves Marincin.


They certainly do but I really hope we have seen the last of him. Although his goal was fantastic this past year
Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:31 a.m.
#14
Meh
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Sandin should get loaned out to the KHL


Sending Sandin to the KHL, a league that is already half way through, is a good way to ensure he fails much like Nylander did when could not come close to catching up after he missed camp and started 2 months late.
Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:35 a.m.
#15
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Quoting: Miles_Togo
Sending Sandin to the KHL, a league that is already half way through, is a good way to ensure he fails much like Nylander did when could not come close to catching up after he missed camp and started 2 months late.


Sandin should have already been loaned out by the Leafs.
Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:43 a.m.
#16
Meh
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Edited Nov. 13, 2020 at 11:49 a.m.
Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Sandin should have already been loaned out by the Leafs.


Yes, any loans should have been made back in September and I feel that the Leafs were completely unprepared for this - which is outrageous for a team with their kind of finances and connections. For instance, in my opinion, Liljegren should have definitely been loaned and I have no idea if they were working on that and things fell through (I heard a rumor that was some discussions of Lilly getting in some games with a league below the SHL in Sweden - I assume Allsvenskan).

The problem with loaning Sandin out is that all sides (himself, his representatives and the team) agreed that he was more in need of an offseason to gain strength and mass - which is what he is currently doing back home in Sweden. That 100% should have been done from March until August so that he could have been loaned out this fall, but the team stupidly balked at that at the time and told him to stay in game shape for the playoffs - which they then opted not to use him.
Nov. 13, 2020 at 2:31 p.m.
#17
In Pridham we trust
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Edited Nov. 13, 2020 at 2:42 p.m.
Quoting: Miles_Togo
Young players like Sandin should never, ever be used as injury replacements. Despite the hatred for Marincin he is an ideal #7/8 D for injury replacement. Last year Dallas made it to the Stanley Cup finals with Hanley, Fedun and Johns as their Ds for injury replacements - aged 28, 29 and 32. All journeymen D. Tampa used Schenn, Rutta and Coburn as their Ds for injury replacements - aged 31, 30 and 35. One journeyman and two has beens.


It's not that absolute. Majority of prospects would never make the NHL if they were never allowed to get their feet wet. Teams don't leave spots for 2/3 prospects per year to make the team out of camp. Not every prospect is good enough to make the NHL out of camp at 20 years old or younger.

There's literally 1000s of examples of AHLers bouncing between the AHL & NHL before they stick.

Sure you don't want to do it to a player 20 times, their confidence can take a hit, but when a guy is the clear 7th or 8th best option (when it comes to D), it makes sense to give them a shot and show everyone involved how close/far they are from the show. It also shows them they'll be rewarded if they play well. It can be just a demoralizing knowing you won't get called up despite being one of (or the) best player on your AHL team. Sandin could very well steal a job the way Dermott did a few years back.

Your TB example did it with Cernak in 18/19.

Also I don't hate Marincin, and he's a decent 7/8th option, but he does not fit with the current make-up of this team at all. He has no puck moving ability, which is problematic when your team is all about puck possession and transition.
Nov. 13, 2020 at 5:01 p.m.
#18
Meh
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Quoting: Barilko14
It's not that absolute.


It is as close to absolute as anything I have ever seen in hockey. I have looked at every single D drafted in the first two rounds from 2005 until 2016. If they were brought into the NHL as permanent D they were about 90% chance of becoming top-4 Ds. If they were not the chances were about 5%.

Dubas knows this himself and was clear on this: "We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time." Then goes on to talk about how damaging it is to the players.

Even last summer he said he would not use Sandin or Liljegren as injury replacement. Then the team he put sucked and he harmed his best prospects in an effort to save a crappy team.

"Majority of prospects would never make the NHL if they were never allowed to get their feet wet."

A majority of prospects don't make the NHL. And I specifically said young prospects. If a player hits 22 or 23, they are very likely to only be a borderline player and they have reached the age where you can start using them as an injury replacement call up. Maybe they eventually make it full-time, maybe they don't. It doesn't matter.

Quote:
Teams don't leave spots for 2/3 prospects per year to make the team out of camp. Not every prospect is good enough to make the NHL out of camp at 20 years old or younger.


So what?

Quote:
There's literally 1000s of examples of AHLers bouncing between the AHL & NHL before they stick.


Not true and irrelevant.

Quote:
Sure you don't want to do it to a player 20 times, their confidence can take a hit


You don't want your good young prospects doing it at all, period. All the evidence says that. You are free to believe otherwise, but you are completely wrong and if you actually looked into it you would know that.

Quote:
but when a guy is the clear 7th or 8th best option (when it comes to D), it makes sense to give them a shot and show everyone involved how close/far they are from the show.


No, you are clearly wrong. While it is true that some teams will give a player a single game to show the player where they are at and how far they need to go, every single team who actually develops good young top-4 NHL Ds does not bring them into the NHL until they are ready to be permanent players.

Quote:
Sandin could very well steal a job the way Dermott did a few years back.

Your TB example did it with Cernak in 18/19.


Dermott came into the NHL as a permanent D. So did Cernak. Sandin didn't and all the evidence shows that his likelihood of making it as a top-4 D has dropped dramatically because Leafs' management was too negligent to wait and bring him in responsibly. He is in Connor Carrick, Sbisa, and Mueller territory now.

Quote:
Also I don't hate Marincin, and he's a decent 7/8th option, but he does not fit with the current make-up of this team at all. He has no puck moving ability, which is problematic when your team is all about puck possession and transition.


The current make up of the team is a complete disaster.
 
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