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Never should of signed tavares

Created by: lilmike2905
Team: 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Nov. 27, 2020
Published: Nov. 27, 2020
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Pietrangelo, Alex
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    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:02 a.m.
    #1
    Brace for the Storm
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    Nobody could've predicted Petro being a FA tho lol

    Also the pairings would've been:
    Reilly-Petro
    Muzzin-Brodie
    Nhl_oilers and SevenLeg liked this.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:06 a.m.
    #2
    Bcarlo25
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    Not signing Tavares doesn’t magically get you Petro at 8 million. 8.8 in a tax free market, so try 20 on for size at 7 years.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:12 a.m.
    #3
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    Right now you see you shouldn’t have signed Tavares, but when you signed him they thought he was very good (which he is), and there was no way a player like Pietrangelo would fall to free agency. It’s hard to talk about, because of the reasons I said. At the time it was good, but now you guys are getting jealous, and thinking it wasn’t, because you wanted Pietrangelo.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:17 a.m.
    #4
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    Yeah, but with the butterfly effect, who knows what else they would've done in the summers of 18 and 19. They could've used some of that $11 million to bring back either JVR or Bozak. They might still have Zaitsev because trading him wasn't an absolute necessity when it came to getting under the cap (might still have Connor Brown too) *or* they keep Marleau for one more year and keep their 1st rounder in 2020. They could've gone out in the summer of 2019 and signed a real backup goalie instead of having to trade for one midseason. And they definitely could've hung on to Kapanen and/or Johnsson, unless they always intended to trade them after a certain point.

    Obviously, you could do "what if" with literally anything, so maybe my take on the exercise is a little pointless. I just don't think their prospects of getting Petro and Brodie would've been very good. I've always believed that signing Tavares made them a much more shallow team, particularly on the wings (albeit a less important position than C) and as an outsider looking in, it's a move that I don't know if I'd want to do over. And that's not the Islanders fan in me talking lol
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:31 a.m.
    #5
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    This junk again?

    Let it go man. These "what if" trips down hindsight lane can be said about most teams around the league.

    What is truly important is what happens next, because there is no going back.

    No-one could have predicted the financial effect that the pandemic had on the league. Remove that and payrolls continue to escalate because the cap keeps rising.

    Living in the "what if's" is not only foolish, it is irrelevant.

    Suck it up and move on.
    Lenny7, SammyT_51, GenXHockey and 3 others liked this.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:34 a.m.
    #6
    In Pridham we trust
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    Quoting: Trevorchef
    This junk again?

    Let it go man. These "what if" trips down hindsight lane can be said about most teams around the league.

    What is truly important is what happens next, because there is no going back.

    No-one could have predicted the financial effect that the pandemic had on the league. Remove that and payrolls continue to escalate because the cap keeps rising.

    Living in the "what if's" is not only foolish, it is irrelevant.

    Suck it up and move on.


    The beauty of TSN running stories like that.

    Looks like these will be a daily occurrence now!
    Lenny7 and chungus liked this.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:42 a.m.
    #7
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    Quoting: ForsbergForVezina
    Yeah, but with the butterfly effect, who knows what else they would've done in the summers of 18 and 19. They could've used some of that $11 million to bring back either JVR or Bozak. They might still have Zaitsev because trading him wasn't an absolute necessity when it came to getting under the cap (might still have Connor Brown too) *or* they keep Marleau for one more year and keep their 1st rounder in 2020. They could've gone out in the summer of 2019 and signed a real backup goalie instead of having to trade for one midseason. And they definitely could've hung on to Kapanen and/or Johnsson, unless they always intended to trade them after a certain point.

    Obviously, you could do "what if" with literally anything, so maybe my take on the exercise is a little pointless. I just don't think their prospects of getting Petro and Brodie would've been very good. I've always believed that signing Tavares made them a much more shallow team, particularly on the wings (albeit a less important position than C) and as an outsider looking in, it's a move that I don't know if I'd want to do over. And that's not the Islanders fan in me talking lol


    100% no chance there is $13M sitting this summer to allocate to defence. Another Top 4 is acquired with JT $$ before this off-season.

    I don't necessarily agree signing JT made Leafs weak on the wings. I mean Connor Brown was expendable because he was having a hard time cracking the Top 9.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:47 a.m.
    #8
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    Edited Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:52 a.m.
    Agree JT signed @11m was obvious then & now it would put pressure on the cap. Never understood the need to speedup the rebuild that was doing fine.

    Was he is he good value? Not really
    Did he fill a big need? Hardly
    Did the signing compromise flexibility? No doubt it did.

    The results have not proved out it was either good value nor the answer & lastly the bonuses look like a joke now.

    What if is always considered before taking the plunge.
    Short sighted move that won’t end well.
    As for AP I cannot lump him into today.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:53 a.m.
    #9
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    Bad take
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    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:54 a.m.
    #10
    Lenny7
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    Quoting: Trevorchef
    This junk again?

    Let it go man. These "what if" trips down hindsight lane can be said about most teams around the league.

    What is truly important is what happens next, because there is no going back.

    No-one could have predicted the financial effect that the pandemic had on the league. Remove that and payrolls continue to escalate because the cap keeps rising.

    Living in the "what if's" is not only foolish, it is irrelevant.

    Suck it up and move on.


    Quoting: Barilko14
    The beauty of TSN running stories like that.

    Looks like these will be a daily occurrence now!


    Poor old Rogers and TSN, with nothing to report on-Better go out and rile up the Leafers out there tears of joy

    You guys had a big hole, and needed a solid shutdown top pairing RD...you got him in Brodie. Was Tavares needed? Hell no. But guess what? The Leafs have one of the top offensive teams, and *should* now be fairly deep defensively. The fact that there's no room for Sandin/Lilly right now is actually great for the team, and their development. Also, as a couple of others have said, there's a good chance Pietro wouldn't even make it to FA, which would have then left another hole. From a non-Leafs fan, you guys are in absolutely fine shape.
    Barilko14 liked this.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 10:59 a.m.
    #11
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    Quoting: Barilko14
    100% no chance there is $13M sitting this summer to allocate to defence. Another Top 4 is acquired with JT $$ before this off-season.

    I don't necessarily agree signing JT made Leafs weak on the wings. I mean Connor Brown was expendable because he was having a hard time cracking the Top 9.


    Signing him didn't directly screw up their wing depth, but it did squeeze out two reasonably priced wingers in Kapanen and Johnsson who had term. In fairness, they did get pretty nice returns for both and got Mikheyev and Robertson for nothing, so I guess long term it doesn't screw them but I'm still counting them as casualties because of how they basically had no choice but to cut them loose because of how close to the cap they were and how incomplete they felt the team was with them
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:01 a.m.
    #12
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    Quoting: Lenny7
    Poor old Rogers and TSN, with nothing to report on-Better go out and rile up the Leafers out there tears of joy

    You guys had a big hole, and needed a solid shutdown top pairing RD...you got him in Brodie. Was Tavares needed? Hell no. But guess what? The Leafs have one of the top offensive teams, and *should* now be fairly deep defensively. The fact that there's no room for Sandin/Lilly right now is actually great for the team, and their development. Also, as a couple of others have said, there's a good chance Pietro wouldn't even make it to FA, which would have then left another hole. From a non-Leafs fan, you guys are in absolutely fine shape.


    Agreed, that's why I find these fairly confusing. Leafs have acquired/signed two perfectly capable to Top 4 dmen, to go along with a Top pair dmen on the roster.

    The also had a solid depth on the wings until a pandemic hit.

    Skipping the JT signing doesn't mean that somehow the Leafs magically have a Hedman, Josi or Bobby Orr on the team.
    Lenny7 liked this.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:02 a.m.
    #13
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    Quoting: ForsbergForVezina
    Signing him didn't directly screw up their wing depth, but it did squeeze out two reasonably priced wingers in Kapanen and Johnsson who had term. In fairness, they did get pretty nice returns for both and got Mikheyev and Robertson for nothing, so I guess long term it doesn't screw them but I'm still counting them as casualties because of how they basically had no choice but to cut them loose because of how close to the cap they were and how incomplete they felt the team was with them


    Kappy is probably gone either way. Pandemic had more to do with AJ moving on than JT signing, IMO.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:07 a.m.
    #14
    torontos finest
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    Really great video on the subject:

    https://youtu.be/5t53TcKIlMc
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:08 a.m.
    #15
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    "If tavares never signed we totally could have convinced pietro to sign a contract he never ever would sign "
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    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:08 a.m.
    #16
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    Quoting: Barilko14
    Kappy is probably gone either way. Pandemic had more to do with AJ moving on than JT signing.


    Maybe. He did miss half the season anyways. Kapanen might prove having been worth hanging onto but that's to be determined. But yeah, you probably keep one or both if the cap went up as expected
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:09 a.m.
    #17
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    Quoting: Barilko14
    Agreed, that's why I find these fairly confusing. Leafs have acquired/signed two perfectly capable to Top 4 dmen, to go along with a Top pair dmen on the roster.

    The also had a solid depth on the wings until a pandemic hit.

    Skipping the JT signing doesn't mean that somehow the Leafs magically have a Hedman, Josi or Bobby Orr on the team.


    I get a kick out of the "tHe CoNtRaCt IsN't GoInG tO aGe WeLl..." crowd...it's not like he's signed until he's 90 like Brent Burns, Shea Weber, or someone like that...the contract is up when he's 35. Sure, he might slow down slightly for the last year or so (Though, that's not really the type of game that he plays), but not having him at that rate for his late 30's is pretty great, IMO.
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    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:25 a.m.
    #18
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    For the last time, STOP WITH THE IF WE DIDN'T SIGN TAVARES. IT WAS A GOOD IDEA, WHEN YOU CAN GET A ONE C FOR FREE, YOU GET HIM.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:26 a.m.
    #19
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    Quoting: ForsbergForVezina
    Maybe. He did miss half the season anyways. Kapanen might prove having been worth hanging onto but that's to be determined. But yeah, you probably keep one or both if the cap went up as expected


    With the 3rd line going cold in playoffs, I think Mgmt wanted that different element in bottom 6 (not just physicality, but guys that get those garbage goals). I think Simmonds was coming in for sure, and that package for Kappy was a no-brainer.

    Without the pandemic happening, I assume the Leafs hold AJ for 1 more year for his game to rebound a bit, then move him next off-season when Robertson would have been really ready for his job.
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    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:31 a.m.
    #20
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    But they did
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:32 a.m.
    #21
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    Quoting: Lenny7
    I get a kick out of the "tHe CoNtRaCt IsN't GoInG tO aGe WeLl..." crowd...it's not like he's signed until he's 90 like Brent Burns, Shea Weber, or someone like that...the contract is up when he's 35. Sure, he might slow down slightly for the last year or so (Though, that's not really the type of game that he plays), but not having him at that rate for his late 30's is pretty great, IMO.


    Agreed.

    I'm actually looking forward to see what he'll be at the end of his contract. Guys like him, Toews, Bergeron, Crosby (toews and bergeron moreso as they were perennial Selke candidates), can easily tweak their games and be super effective 3rd line Cs capable of putting up 40ish pts per year. Obviously they may not all be ready to drop to that roll when their contracts expire (and Bergeron may not last with his injury history).

    Or Tavares may be a ~50 pt LW for a few years after this contract. He'd likely be pretty slow by then, but I don't see him losing his effectiveness in the OZ anytime soon.
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    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:34 a.m.
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    Kapanen and Johnsson are not what I would call smart hockey players. Both on and off the ice. I got the distinct impression that they both felt that they were on the same level as 88, 16, 34, and 91 and they simply were not.

    Both trades were the right moves. Pandemic and flat cap or not.

    They made too much money for what they provided. They have been replaced accordingly.

    I wish them well in the wars to come but, I have no problem with them not being on this team anymore.
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:42 a.m.
    #23
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    Quoting: Nighthawk
    Agree JT signed @11m was obvious then & now it would put pressure on the cap. Never understood the need to speedup the rebuild that was doing fine.

    Was he is he good value? Not really
    Did he fill a big need? Hardly
    Did the signing compromise flexibility? No doubt it did.

    The results have not proved out it was either good value nor the answer & lastly the bonuses look like a joke now.

    What if is always considered before taking the plunge.
    Short sighted move that won’t end well.
    As for AP I cannot lump him into today.


    I disagree, the rebiuld was done. Signing Jt was a good move, if they didn't sign him, they likely have Zaitzev on the team right now. And I would say he is good value. The leafs got him for free. They did not have to give up anything to get him directly.

    Quoting: Trevorchef
    Kapanen and Johnsson are not what I would call smart hockey players. Both on and off the ice. I got the distinct impression that they both felt that they were on the same level as 88, 16, 34, and 91 and they simply were not.

    Both trades were the right moves. Pandemic and flat cap or not.

    They made too much money for what they provided. They have been replaced accordingly.

    I wish them well in the wars to come but, I have no problem with them not being on this team anymore.


    I agree. They were depth player that needed to go. They were not bargain contract that are supposed to be in the leafs bottom 6. You can't be paid over 2 mil to play bottom 6 for the leafs lol.
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    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:43 a.m.
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    Edited Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:57 a.m.
    Quoting: Nhl_oilers
    Right now you see you shouldn’t have signed Tavares, but when you signed him they thought he was very good (which he is), and there was no way a player like Pietrangelo would fall to free agency. It’s hard to talk about, because of the reasons I said. At the time it was good, but now you guys are getting jealous, and thinking it wasn’t, because you wanted Pietrangelo.


    Quoting: Nighthawk
    Agree JT signed @11m was obvious then & now it would put pressure on the cap. Never understood the need to speedup the rebuild that was doing fine.

    Did he fill a big need? Hardly




    Quoting: Saskleaf
    For the last time, STOP WITH THE IF WE DIDN'T SIGN TAVARES. IT WAS A GOOD IDEA, WHEN YOU CAN GET A ONE C FOR FREE, YOU GET HIM.


    Quoting: ForsbergForVezina
    Yeah, but with the butterfly effect, who knows what else they would've done in the summers of 18 and 19. They could've used some of that $11 million to bring back either JVR or Bozak. They might still have Zaitsev because trading him wasn't an absolute necessity when it came to getting under the cap (might still have Connor Brown too) *or* they keep Marleau for one more year and keep their 1st rounder in 2020. They could've gone out in the summer of 2019 and signed a real backup goalie instead of having to trade for one midseason. And they definitely could've hung on to Kapanen and/or Johnsson, unless they always intended to trade them after a certain point.

    Obviously, you could do "what if" with literally anything, so maybe my take on the exercise is a little pointless. I just don't think their prospects of getting Petro and Brodie would've been very good. I've always believed that signing Tavares made them a much more shallow team, particularly on the wings (albeit a less important position than C) and as an outsider looking in, it's a move that I don't know if I'd want to do over. And that's not the Islanders fan in me talking lol


    the team had their 3C bozak and JVR walking out the door. Marleau and Brown also regressed the next year. Nylander would miss half the season due to contract negotiations and wouldn't return to form until march. Would Kadri replicate another 30 goal season with marner? (he hasn't done it since). The leafs were signing derek ryan most likely, a shut down 3C instead of JT. There were no solutions to replenishing the scoring

    without JT, this would have been the team till december

    7ee0ece2268391ea9220debd5644b1e4.png

    that team probably sucks huge ass. Remember, matthews got injured early on as well, is Kadri a 1C?

    After nylander comes back, we see this team here

    280f1c936de494c830d7858d1b10ff17.png

    do they even pull off the muzzin trade? I would have genuine concerns whether they were even a playoff team.

    Now, just imagine the ACGMs on here if dubas sat on his hands for his first free agency and the team missed the playoffs AND the rumour came out that JT wanted to take less money to come play in toronto

    "but they weren't able to get a solid backup goalie or defence or depth"

    they traded for muzzin (and extended him 4 years), they traded for campbell AND clifford, they traded for Barrie AND kerfoot (signed him 3 years), they traded kappy/johnsson who were playoff ghosts and acquired simmonds, vesey, spezza, thornton, barabanov, mikheyev (and extended him), boyd, etc. they acquired bogo and brodie for FREE

    all of that done with tavares against the cap

    also, for fun:

    Brown: 1g 5p in 20gp
    Kappy: 4g 7p in 25gp
    Mango: 2g 6p in 14 gp
    Kadri: 3g 10p in 20gp for the leafs
    AAV: $13.2M-$14.7M (28p 79gp)

    JT: 15g 30p in 36gp
    (4g 8p in 13gp for TOR)
    AAV: $11M (30p 36gp)
    Nov. 27, 2020 at 11:55 a.m.
    #25
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    Quoting: Lyle_Bubas
    the team had their 3C bozak and JVR walking out the door. Marleau and Brown also regressed the next year. Nylander would miss half the season due to contract negotiations and wouldn't return to form until march. Would Kadri replicate another 30 goal season with marner? (he hasn't done it since). The leafs were signing derek ryan most likely, a shut down 3C instead of JT. There were no solutions to replenishing the scoring

    without JT, this would have been the team till december

    7ee0ece2268391ea9220debd5644b1e4.png

    that team probably sucks huge ass. Remember, matthews got injured early on as well, is Kadri a 1C?

    After nylander comes back, we see this team here

    280f1c936de494c830d7858d1b10ff17.png

    do they even pull off the muzzin trade? I would have genuine concerns whether they were even a playoff team.

    Now, just imagine the ACGMs on here if dubas sat on his hands for his first free agency and the team missed the playoffs AND the rumour came out that JT wanted to take less money to come play in toronto

    "but they weren't able to get a solid backup goalie or defence or depth"

    they traded for muzzin (and extended him 4 years), they traded for campbell AND clifford, they traded for Barrie AND kerfoot (signed him 3 years), they traded kappy/johnsson who were playoff ghosts and acquired simmonds, vesey, spezza, thornton, barabanov, mikheyev (and extended him), boyd, etc. they acquired bogo and brodie for FREE

    all of that done with tavares against the cap

    also, for fun:

    Brown: 1g 5p in 20gp
    Kapanen: 4g 7p in 25gp
    Johnsson: 2g 6p in 14 gp
    Kadri: 3g 10p in 20gp for the leafs
    Combined cap hit: $13.2M-$14.7M

    JT: 15g 15a in 36gp
    (4g 4a in 13gp for the leafs)
    Cap hit: $11M


    Exactly. I agree 100%
    chungus liked this.
     
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