Couldn't have said it better

I think you truly are the "best poster" like your user title says

Oh I’m definitely being an ass hole on this thread. It is fully my intention.

That said, just saying, “prove it. Prove it. Prove that this guys better. I have stats.” Is being obtuse to a ridiculous level. He knows what he’s doing. He made this thing to annoy people so he could say, “no no no you’re wrong i have stats you’re wrong!!! GAR bro!”

I’m certainly not going to add him to the ignore list because he’s a jerk. I don’t know if he is, and i don’t really care. I like a lot of jerks. But he doesn’t think. He doesn’t bring anything to the table. He will never have an opinion, a story, a side, an anecdote, or something noteworthy that i can’t find on a chart on a website. There’s no value to him.

Very understandable. What you have to realize though- that is strategy! Coaches understand that they have a smooth skating, puck mover so what they want to do is pair them up with somebody who’s defensive minded. For example, Torey Krug played pretty much only with Brandon Carlo. These puck movers are making big time plays and risk so of course they have to rely on their D partner at points. I actually wouldn’t even use the word “rely” because there are puck movers like Heiskanen that can hold their own. I think it’s all about strategy and when you have a playmaking dman in the backend taking risks, the other guy has to be steady. That’s why 2 puckmovers on the same pair is just such a rarity

Yeah thats fair, but at the end of the day, I can only rank what I see on the ice. I cant assume that a player would do ________ if they were ________

Spurgeon? I mean he is decent but nothing special. Maybe around 30th. 5th best though? How do you even come up with that?

Spurgeon has been one of the best but maybe because he plays with Ryan Suter or for the Wild or doesn't put up big points or just because his name is Spurgeon, he doesn't get enough credit. He's been great almost every season since he is in the NHL. You can see it by watching him and if you look at his advanced stats/analytics.

I fully get that he is good. But the influence he has on a game isn't top 5 in the league. Advanced stats favor him sure but just watch the game he's not a big difference maker like the others in the top 10-20. I'm not against advanced stats at all, but they are still developing their methods.

For me, he is. I can also tell you to " watch the games and you'll see he is a difference maker ".

And this is the irony of it all. You are not ranking players based on what you see on the ice. You are ranking players based on a series of formulas, calculations, and computations, which require almost zero hockey knowledge and without the need to watch a single minute of a single game. There is a reason all teams send scouts across the world to actually WATCH players perform on the ice before and after they are drafted. There is a reason teams do not sign players to contracts based on these formulas, but instead rely mainly on their hockey knowledge, and what they see happen on the ice. Analytics will always have a supporting role with the decision making process, but nothing will come close to actually watching a player perform in hockey games, with many different and unique scenarios unfolding each period, to determine how good a player is.

Tbh at least 1/4 of the teams' executives don't evaluate players properly. And most of them only watch and that's it.
That being said, I agree, we also need to watch.

What would you say is more difficult scoring or defending?

In the NHL? Defend.

He does everything right. His name just doesnt get brought up because he doesnt play big minutes/get many points and because he plays for the Wild. But if you actually watch his film, and look at pretty much every advanced stat, you will see that hes elite

defending for sure. You have insanely talented guys like McDavid, Kane, Rielly and Carlson look like pylons on defense because of how hard it is to defend

He is an advanced stats darling I get that. I just don't think anyone would say there is the 5th best defenseman in the league after watching a Minnesota Wild game. I see them plenty as a Canucks fan.

You kind of need to be scoring and/or on the ice a lot to be in the conversation for 5th best dman. He is good solid player as I say prob in the 20-30 range.

So when an offensive player brings it into the offensive zone on attack you are expecting a goal? Obviously not. To be able to defend is not nearly as important as to score. Clearly both are important but one is much more difficult. That is why we jump out of our seat when we see a goal because they are relatively rare.

So most of the time you come down the ice you score? Most of the time you shoot you score? Clearly not. It's much more difficult to score than to defend.

I recently read a blog that had him in the top 5 as well. Trying to remember which one it was now so I can share the link, but the author said he is what everyone thinks Seth Jones is. Sounds like a hot take, but admittedly I don’t watch much CBJ or MIN so what do I know?

Yeah hes practically is. Hes not someone who will catch your attention. He does everything the right way. Seth Jones is average everywhere

Gee I wonder where this poster came up with Spurgeon at 5? This is the "hot take" of the advanced stats community. It used to be plus/minus, then it was Corsi, now it's 5 stars from Andy and Rono on defense. I enjoy advanced stats, I also take them as the incomplete or low resolution descriptor that they are. Seth Jones had a bad yr so it's fun for them to say he is awful. I am expecting a bounce back yr from him and I'd take him over Spurgeon any day. He is a more active player, more minutes, more goals, more takeaways, he is a higher risk player and the rewards are greater too.

No, see why so many players struggle to play without the puck than with the puck. They can shoot but when they need to backcheck and do the right thing(s) in the d-zone, they have more difficulty. No wonder why defensive teams (BOS, DAL, NYI) succeed more than high-scoring teams (TOR, NYR, FLA) in the playoffs. Their players play better in a defensive system while 3/4 of those same players are reliable/good defensively. There's more and more scoring in the past years, the game is faster, it's much more difficult to defend/be a good defensive player.



By the way, playing minutes doesn't necessarily equal to being good. Patrik Nemeth plays 22+ mins, Rasmus Ristolainen 23+, Drew Doughty +24, yet they're bad/are not first-pair D. Goals isn't the #1 job to do either when you're a D. But if you take Jones before Spurgeon, it's up to you, I respect that.

" I also take them as the incomplete or low resolution descriptor that they are. " There is literally no perfect stat. IMO, they're better than basic stats like G/A/Pts/GAA/SV%.

I have watched tons of film from both Spurgeon and Jones. Jones looks way flashier because he is bigger and plays more minutes, but certainly isnt super effective in them. He often gets hemmed in his own zone, hence all the highlights of him blocking shots and throwing hits in the corners. He often loses puck battles (to guys like Devin Shore) and relies on Werenski to carry the load offensively. Hes pretty good in transition, I'll give him that, but it all stems from his athleticism and great skating ability. 

Spurgeon on the other hand isnt a player thats going to get anyone's attention, which is why people dont think he is good. He plays amazing defense, creates chances offensively, gets the puck out of his zone, and gets it to the o-zone. He doesnt block shots because he never needs to. He doesnt allow the other player to get in position for a shot. He doesnt hit because he doesnt need to. Hes a very high IQ player that gets the puck away from the other player before a hit/block is even needed. He plays hockey the right way and gets the job done effectively. I bet if he was 6'3, 220pounds, everyone would undoubtedly have them in their top 10 defenseman lists. He is who people think Seth Jones is. So no, I am not basing the entire arguement on stats.

The only reason Seth Jones has more goals is because he plays more minutes. If you look at their /60 stats, Spurgeon actually leads Jones. Its not his fault that Boudreau wouldnt play him¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  Jones plays big minutes but is way less effective. And if you want to point to the fact that he had a down year, look no further than his stats over the last 3 years, none of them scream elite. Hes always just been a decent #2-#3 defenseman whos played big minutes. You cant actually justify putting him in a top 10 defenseman list using any half decent stat (no TOI is not a stat that you can use for player evaluation, its useful in providing context, but not good at all for rankings). If one or two stats said Spurgeon is elite, then I might not have put him so high, but when almost every single advanced stat out then is saying he is elite, then hes obviously doing something right, right? The same can be said for Jones. All the stats point to him not being elite. If you can find a good one, go ahead and change my mind. But I dont think you will.

And secondly, I dont base every single decision I make on advanced stats. if I did, I would say Couturier is the best centre in the league and that McDavid sucks because his defense is bad. Analytics can be extremely effective when used properly with the right context. You can use analytics to say that Ceci was better defensively than Jaccob Slavin, but nobody with half a brain cell would say that. So no I am not relying 100% on analytics. I am using the eye test and common knowledge as well to enhance my views from analytics. And so far, the numbers have 100% reflected what my eye test has told me. Its just a matter of knowing what to look for. 

(Why did I just write you an essay)

@deys3232

That analysis of Spurgeon is spot on. I'd disagree that Jones isn't elite, as I feel he is, for what he is. They're two very different defenseman, so any comparison between the two is extremely difficult and ultimately comes down to personal preferences.

I do however, have to correct you on one thing unfortunately. Spurgeon does indeed block shots, quite frequently in point of fact. Spurgeon was second behind only Brodin for Wild defenseman in blocked shots last season with 102, Brodin had 112.

The 100th comment. What should it be...


Please do a goalie ranking, I know it's hard to make one since they're so random, but it would be interesting to see because all the rankings are different