@deys3232

That analysis of Spurgeon is spot on. I'd disagree that Jones isn't elite, as I feel he is, for what he is. They're two very different defenseman, so any comparison between the two is extremely difficult and ultimately comes down to personal preferences.

I do however, have to correct you on one thing unfortunately. Spurgeon does indeed block shots, quite frequently in point of fact. Spurgeon was second behind only Brodin for Wild defenseman in blocked shots last season with 102, Brodin had 112.

The 100th comment. What should it be...


Please do a goalie ranking, I know it's hard to make one since they're so random, but it would be interesting to see because all the rankings are different

I will see lol. I dont like ranking goalies because of their randomness, but I think it will be fun to piss off some Habs fans by telling them Price isnt elite anymore

No, see why so many players struggle to play without the puck than with the puck. They can shoot but when they need to backcheck and do the right thing(s) in the d-zone, they have more difficulty. No wonder why defensive teams (BOS, DAL, NYI) succeed more than high-scoring teams (TOR, NYR, FLA) in the playoffs. Their players play better in a defensive system while 3/4 of those same players are reliable/good defensively. There's more and more scoring in the past years, the game is faster, it's much more difficult to defend/be a good defensive player.



By the way, playing minutes doesn't necessarily equal to being good. Patrik Nemeth plays 22+ mins, Rasmus Ristolainen 23+, Drew Doughty +24, yet they're bad/are not first-pair D. Goals isn't the #1 job to do either when you're a D. But if you take Jones before Spurgeon, it's up to you, I respect that.

" I also take them as the incomplete or low resolution descriptor that they are. " There is literally no perfect stat. IMO, they're better than basic stats like G/A/Pts/GAA/SV%.

I have watched tons of film from both Spurgeon and Jones. Jones looks way flashier because he is bigger and plays more minutes, but certainly isnt super effective in them. He often gets hemmed in his own zone, hence all the highlights of him blocking shots and throwing hits in the corners. He often loses puck battles (to guys like Devin Shore) and relies on Werenski to carry the load offensively. Hes pretty good in transition, I'll give him that, but it all stems from his athleticism and great skating ability. 

Spurgeon on the other hand isnt a player thats going to get anyone's attention, which is why people dont think he is good. He plays amazing defense, creates chances offensively, gets the puck out of his zone, and gets it to the o-zone. He doesnt block shots because he never needs to. He doesnt allow the other player to get in position for a shot. He doesnt hit because he doesnt need to. Hes a very high IQ player that gets the puck away from the other player before a hit/block is even needed. He plays hockey the right way and gets the job done effectively. I bet if he was 6'3, 220pounds, everyone would undoubtedly have them in their top 10 defenseman lists. He is who people think Seth Jones is. So no, I am not basing the entire arguement on stats.

The only reason Seth Jones has more goals is because he plays more minutes. If you look at their /60 stats, Spurgeon actually leads Jones. Its not his fault that Boudreau wouldnt play him¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  Jones plays big minutes but is way less effective. And if you want to point to the fact that he had a down year, look no further than his stats over the last 3 years, none of them scream elite. Hes always just been a decent #2-#3 defenseman whos played big minutes. You cant actually justify putting him in a top 10 defenseman list using any half decent stat (no TOI is not a stat that you can use for player evaluation, its useful in providing context, but not good at all for rankings). If one or two stats said Spurgeon is elite, then I might not have put him so high, but when almost every single advanced stat out then is saying he is elite, then hes obviously doing something right, right? The same can be said for Jones. All the stats point to him not being elite. If you can find a good one, go ahead and change my mind. But I dont think you will.

And secondly, I dont base every single decision I make on advanced stats. if I did, I would say Couturier is the best centre in the league and that McDavid sucks because his defense is bad. Analytics can be extremely effective when used properly with the right context. You can use analytics to say that Ceci was better defensively than Jaccob Slavin, but nobody with half a brain cell would say that. So no I am not relying 100% on analytics. I am using the eye test and common knowledge as well to enhance my views from analytics. And so far, the numbers have 100% reflected what my eye test has told me. Its just a matter of knowing what to look for. 

(Why did I just write you an essay)

Points absolutely has to come into the equation. It's very difficult to score in this league. If you are not good enough to qb your team's pp I find it very hard to say you are the 5th best dman in the league.

As for you TOI argument, that's true some players who aren't that great play a lot because theyre the best players on their team. Again it's a stat it doesn't tell us everything but there is a defenseman on his own team who plays 2 more mins a game. It's hard to parse why that would be. PP for sure, but again PP goals/points win hockey games.

Defensive teams do better in the playoffs because the league clamps down. You can easily raise your defensive level with effort, much harder to do that offensively.

Ok this is good. I appreciate your dedication. So give me the 3 stats that stand out the most in making you rank Surgeon as the no. 5 best defenseman in the league. And then maybe mention a few of the other metrics you are fond of. This will give me a better understanding of your evaluation.

Side bar, what is it that makes McDavid better than Couturier despite not being as good in advance stat metrics? Where is the whole/gap in the metrics that explains this in your mind?

That'll be a good start.

Gee I wonder where this poster came up with Spurgeon at 5? This is the "hot take" of the advanced stats community. It used to be plus/minus, then it was Corsi, now it's 5 stars from Andy and Rono on defense. I enjoy advanced stats, I also take them as the incomplete or low resolution descriptor that they are. Seth Jones had a bad yr so it's fun for them to say he is awful. I am expecting a bounce back yr from him and I'd take him over Spurgeon any day. He is a more active player, more minutes, more goals, more takeaways, he is a higher risk player and the rewards are greater too.

That was a great bounce back year Seth Jones just had