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St Louis trade

Created by: sensibleguy
Team: 2020-21 Ottawa Senators
Initial Creation Date: Feb. 2, 2021
Published: Feb. 2, 2021
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Retained money on Reilly balances the cap hit, so no change in cap hit this season from this trade.
Trades
Buyouts
Retained Salary Transactions
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2021
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2022
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2023
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$66,910,916$0$6,720,000$14,589,084
Left WingCentreRight Wing
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$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$2,500,000$2M)
LW
UFA - 1
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$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
C
UFA - 2
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$736,666$736,666 (Performance Bonus$20,000$20K)
RW, LW
UFA - 1
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$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$2,500,000$2M)
C
UFA - 3
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$3,500,000$3,500,000
C
UFA - 2
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$2,500,000$2,500,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$749,250$749,250
C, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$4,750,000$4,750,000
C, RW
UFA - 5
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$2,750,000$2,750,000
RW, C
UFA - 3
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$1,050,000$1,050,000
LW, C, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$6,500,000$6,500,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$1,500,000$1,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 3
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
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$8,000,000$8,000,000
LD
UFA - 8
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$4,500,000$4,500,000
RD
M-NTC
UFA - 4
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$4,687,500$4,687,500
G
UFA - 4
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$1,875,000$1,875,000
LD/RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$4,000,000$4,000,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$700,000$700,000
G
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$1,700,000$1,700,000
LD
NTC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
RD
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
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$1,650,000$1,650,000
C, LW, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$900,000$900,000
LD
UFA - 1
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$4,550,000$4,550,000
C, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$1,200,000$1,200,000
RD
UFA - 2
Taxi Squad
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$768,333$768,333 ($0$0$0$0)
LD
UFA - 3
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$750,000$750,000 ($0$0$0$0)
G
UFA - 3
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$735,000$735,000 ($0$0$0$0)
C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$700,000$700,000 ($0$0$0$0)
C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Ottawa Senators
$700,000$700,000 ($0$0$0$0)
LW, C
UFA - 1

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Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:12 p.m.
#26
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Quoting: A_K
What did I say that was incorrect?


Yes Dunn is better than Reilly, that’s why he’s the targeted acquisition, but if you think Reilly is the player being traded for Dunn, you’re mistaken, it’s Brown. Now if you think Sundqvist is as good as Brown, you’re only looking at numbers on a page, and choice picking which numbers. Start with time on ice. How many minutes a game does Sundqvist play? How many minutes does Brown play? Why are Browns so much more? Where is he getting those minutes from. What is Browns QoC? Don’t look at fantasy stats, this isn’t fantasy hockey.

Sundqvist is a prototypical bottom6 winger, Brown is an all situations, late game situations primary forward.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:16 p.m.
#27
Lets Go Blues
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Quoting: sensibleguy
Yes Dunn is better than Reilly, that’s why he’s the targeted acquisition, but if you think Reilly is the player being traded for Dunn, you’re mistaken, it’s Brown. Now if you think Sundqvist is as good as Brown, you’re only looking at numbers on a page, and choice picking which numbers. Start with time on ice. How many minutes a game does Sundqvist okay! How many minutes does Brown play? Why are Browns so much more? Where is he getting those minutes from. What is Browns QoC? Don’t look at fantasy stats, this isn’t fantasy hockey.

Sundqvist is a prototypical bottom6 winger, Brown is an all situations, late game situations primary forward.


Hard disagree there. Brown is playing top minutes on a bad Sens team. If the Blues trade Sunny for Brown, Brown would play on the 3rd line in STL. Ironic that you mention that Brown is an all-situations, late-game primary forward and that I'm oblivious to other teams because that's exactly what Sundqvist is for the Blues. He can play with our top players when they need a spark, he can play 4C if that's where they want him. If you can't concede that they're similar players then I don't know what to tell you.
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:17 p.m.
#28
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Quoting: A_K
Hard disagree there. Brown is playing top minutes on a bad Sens team. If the Blues trade Sunny for Brown, Brown would play on the 3rd line in STL. Ironic that you mention that Brown is an all-situations, late-game primary forward and that I'm oblivious to other teams because that's exactly what Sundqvist is for the Blues. He can play with our top players when they need a spark, he can play 4C if that's where they want him. If you can't concede that they're similar players then I don't know what to tell you.


Confirmation bias, you’re trying to make what you see fit your opinion.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:19 p.m.
#29
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Quoting: A_K
Hard disagree there. Brown is playing top minutes on a bad Sens team. If the Blues trade Sunny for Brown, Brown would play on the 3rd line in STL. Ironic that you mention that Brown is an all-situations, late-game primary forward and that I'm oblivious to other teams because that's exactly what Sundqvist is for the Blues. He can play with our top players when they need a spark, he can play 4C if that's where they want him. If you can't concede that they're similar players then I don't know what to tell you.

He’s not gonna believe it but that’s Ottawa fans for you. He doesn’t know that when Hoffman couldn’t play first game Sunny moved up second line and scorer 2 goals. Brown might have better offensive production, but Sunny plays against top lines on defense which is what I value more.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:19 p.m.
#30
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@jamiepo settle this one for us honestly.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:22 p.m.
#31
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Quoting: sensibleguy
Confirmation bias, you’re trying to make what you see fit your opinion.


It's just facts. Brown was a 3rd liner in Toronto, moved to a worse team and got a better role. His scoring rate didn't even increase (https://hockeyviz.com/player/brownco94). It's not crazy to say that he would be a 3rd liner on most teams. And it's facts to say his EV scoring rate over the past 3 seasons is lower than Sundqvist's. Now I haven't even tried to argue that one is better than the other, all I said was that it would be a bad move for the Blues to trade Dunn and Sundqvist for Brown and Reilly - there isn't a net improvement there.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:25 p.m.
#32
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Quoting: A_K
It's just facts. Brown was a 3rd liner in Toronto, moved to a worse team and got a better role. His scoring rate didn't even increase (https://hockeyviz.com/player/brownco94). It's not crazy to say that he would be a 3rd liner on most teams. And it's facts to say his scoring rate over the past 3 seasons is lower than Sundqvist's. Now I haven't even tried to argue that one is better than the other, all I said was that it would be a bad move for the Blues to trade Dunn and Sundqvist for Brown and Reilly - there isn't a net improvement there.


Older even so net loss more.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:33 p.m.
#33
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Gotta love when ACGMs throw a fit when their offers aren’t close to good enough. Sunny is our Swiss Army Knife. We keep him primarily on our 4th line, but we throw him in the top 6 or on the power play, he produces seamlessly. Then we throw him back on the 4th line and he has no complaints. Sunny for Brown is a wash. Dunn for Reilly is very very far off.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:35 p.m.
#34
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Quoting: A_K
It's just facts. Brown was a 3rd liner in Toronto, moved to a worse team and got a better role. His scoring rate didn't even increase (https://hockeyviz.com/player/brownco94). It's not crazy to say that he would be a 3rd liner on most teams. And it's facts to say his EV scoring rate over the past 3 seasons is lower than Sundqvist's. Now I haven't even tried to argue that one is better than the other, all I said was that it would be a bad move for the Blues to trade Dunn and Sundqvist for Brown and Reilly - there isn't a net improvement there.


@Alfie11 @sensibleguy

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Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:36 p.m.
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:39 p.m.
#36
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Quoting: BeastModeUnknown
jamiepo settle this one for us honestly.


Blues say no, brown and Reilly are playing well but they aren’t going to pull that return due to browns contract. Not that it’s a bad contract. But in this climate it’s just not going to cut it.

Personally I think the sens should keep brown. Great player to have around all this young talent. Great work ethic and character guy.
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:41 p.m.
#37
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Quoting: Jamiepo
Blues say no, brown and Reilly are playing well but they aren’t going to pull that return due to browns contract. Not that it’s a bad contract. But in this climate it’s just not going to cut it.

Personally I think the sens should keep brown. Great player to have around all this young talent. Great work ethic and character guy.


I like Connor Brown, prefer Sundqvist, and Dunn or him for the reason I love Sundqvist on both ends and how he is versatile on both ends, Dunn is a guy I think can grow and Reilly is well. Reilly.
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 1:46 p.m.
#38
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Quoting: jwg314
Gotta love when ACGMs throw a fit when their offers aren’t close to good enough. Sunny is our Swiss Army Knife. We keep him primarily on our 4th line, but we throw him in the top 6 or on the power play, he produces seamlessly. Then we throw him back on the 4th line and he has no complaints. Sunny for Brown is a wash. Dunn for Reilly is very very far off.


I’ve followed Sundqvist since he was still a prospect for Pittsburg, I know who he is, I know what he brings. Sundqvist for Brown is not a wash.

I get it, you guys love Sundqvist, and Dunn. Works for me, still doesn’t make them more than they are.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 2:00 p.m.
#39
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Quoting: Jamiepo
Blues say no, brown and Reilly are playing well but they aren’t going to pull that return due to browns contract. Not that it’s a bad contract. But in this climate it’s just not going to cut it.

Personally I think the sens should keep brown. Great player to have around all this young talent. Great work ethic and character guy.


Brown is definitely worth keeping. I’m just laughing at the arguments these guys are using, like Sundqvist on the PP or top6. He has a total of 82 seconds on the PP this season, as compared to their first PP unit sitting around 24 minutes each, and the second PP unit sitting around 10 minutes each. That’s not a plug in, that’s more like being on the ice for a face off when there’s only seconds left on the PP.

Sundqvist toi totals are closer to Nick Paul, and as much as I like Nick Paul, he isn’t as important to the team as Brown, and Paul is having a great year despite the teams struggles.

There’s loving a players contribution, and then there’s a players value to the team. I don’t particularly like Austin Watson, but he’s doing a good job on the 4th line. That doesn’t make him worth more than he is, despite the term he received.
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 2:02 p.m.
#40
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Quoting: BeastModeUnknown
Alfie11 sensibleguy

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Look at that TOI, he’s playing 1st line minutes on a team with with one good defenseman and no goaltending. If he was playing 3rd line minutes (which is where he should be on any other team and would be on STL) he’d be dominating, obviously. And he has the same dzone start % as Sundqvist (plus as mentioned more TOI against tougher opponents) and doesn’t play PP1 so he’s not got a better role offensively. He is relied upon to match up against other teams’s top lines every game. Excuse me if I think Matthews and Scheifele are a tougher matchup than Getzlaf or a Kadri/Bellemare split. Also you’re just showing your ignorance with the corsi comment, that’s an indicator of possession. A good cf% means you can get the puck out of your end and into the opponent’s end which is ultimately the goal of playing defense. Corsi rel is how good you are at producing chances compared to your team. I don’t think Sundqvist is creating much of anything honestly, his corsi numbers are literally the worst on the team for a guy consistently in the lineup. If anything he’s the one getting carried lol, not Brown (another fallacious claim you made earlier). Plus there’s the fact that Brown outproduces him. And if you look at the 3-year trend in your own chart you can see that he’s actually improved since coming to Ottawa lol. You can like Sundqvist and think he’s a useful player, but he’s not better than Brown. The only thing he’s really got going for him in this comparison is he can play centre, although he’s not even good at faceoffs.
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 3:40 p.m.
#41
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Quoting: Alfie11
Look at that TOI, he’s playing 1st line minutes on a team with with one good defenseman and no goaltending. If he was playing 3rd line minutes (which is where he should be on any other team and would be on STL) he’d be dominating, obviously. And he has the same dzone start % as Sundqvist (plus as mentioned more TOI against tougher opponents) and doesn’t play PP1 so he’s not got a better role offensively. He is relied upon to match up against other teams’s top lines every game. Excuse me if I think Matthews and Scheifele are a tougher matchup than Getzlaf or a Kadri/Bellemare split. Also you’re just showing your ignorance with the corsi comment, that’s an indicator of possession. A good cf% means you can get the puck out of your end and into the opponent’s end which is ultimately the goal of playing defense. Corsi rel is how good you are at producing chances compared to your team. I don’t think Sundqvist is creating much of anything honestly, his corsi numbers are literally the worst on the team for a guy consistently in the lineup. If anything he’s the one getting carried lol, not Brown (another fallacious claim you made earlier). Plus there’s the fact that Brown outproduces him. And if you look at the 3-year trend in your own chart you can see that he’s actually improved since coming to Ottawa lol. You can like Sundqvist and think he’s a useful player, but he’s not better than Brown. The only thing he’s really got going for him in this comparison is he can play centre, although he’s not even good at faceoffs.


Quoting: Alfie11
Look at that TOI, he’s playing 1st line minutes on a team with with one good defenseman and no goaltending. If he was playing 3rd line minutes (which is where he should be on any other team and would be on STL) he’d be dominating, obviously. And he has the same dzone start % as Sundqvist (plus as mentioned more TOI against tougher opponents) and doesn’t play PP1 so he’s not got a better role offensively. He is relied upon to match up against other teams’s top lines every game. Excuse me if I think Matthews and Scheifele are a tougher matchup than Getzlaf or a Kadri/Bellemare split. Also you’re just showing your ignorance with the corsi comment, that’s an indicator of possession. A good cf% means you can get the puck out of your end and into the opponent’s end which is ultimately the goal of playing defense. Corsi rel is how good you are at producing chances compared to your team. I don’t think Sundqvist is creating much of anything honestly, his corsi numbers are literally the worst on the team for a guy consistently in the lineup. If anything he’s the one getting carried lol, not Brown (another fallacious claim you made earlier). Plus there’s the fact that Brown outproduces him. And if you look at the 3-year trend in your own chart you can see that he’s actually improved since coming to Ottawa lol. You can like Sundqvist and think he’s a useful player, but he’s not better than Brown. The only thing he’s really got going for him in this comparison is he can play centre, although he’s not even good at faceoffs.

First Line Time On Ice on a ****ty team.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 3:41 p.m.
#42
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Also Barbashev has worse numbers
Feb. 2, 2021 at 4:29 p.m.
#43
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Quoting: Alfie11
Look at that TOI, he’s playing 1st line minutes on a team with with one good defenseman and no goaltending. If he was playing 3rd line minutes (which is where he should be on any other team and would be on STL) he’d be dominating, obviously. And he has the same dzone start % as Sundqvist (plus as mentioned more TOI against tougher opponents) and doesn’t play PP1 so he’s not got a better role offensively. He is relied upon to match up against other teams’s top lines every game. Excuse me if I think Matthews and Scheifele are a tougher matchup than Getzlaf or a Kadri/Bellemare split. Also you’re just showing your ignorance with the corsi comment, that’s an indicator of possession. A good cf% means you can get the puck out of your end and into the opponent’s end which is ultimately the goal of playing defense. Corsi rel is how good you are at producing chances compared to your team. I don’t think Sundqvist is creating much of anything honestly, his corsi numbers are literally the worst on the team for a guy consistently in the lineup. If anything he’s the one getting carried lol, not Brown (another fallacious claim you made earlier). Plus there’s the fact that Brown outproduces him. And if you look at the 3-year trend in your own chart you can see that he’s actually improved since coming to Ottawa lol. You can like Sundqvist and think he’s a useful player, but he’s not better than Brown. The only thing he’s really got going for him in this comparison is he can play centre, although he’s not even good at faceoffs.


I'm not saying you or sensibleguy has to agree with me. He put me on his ignore list because I'm not going to accept his homer opinion as an answer. Just because Brown averages first line TOI (which is how JFresh has that it's not based on his play on what line) it's doesn't matter if he plays more TOI or less TOI his stats are his stats. No way around it. It's pretty easy to get 43 points when you are a linemate of Tkachuk. I'm just saying from a standpoint. Sundqvist has been known on the Blues as the swiss army knife. He plays up and down the line and proved it first night against Colorado moved up the line got 2 goals in that game. Brown plays on the third line in Toronto, plays on a crappier team in Ottawa gets a top 6 spot. No way he makes top 6 in our lineup unless Hoffman goes out. If you wanna believe he's better sure, but Brown isn't better than Dunn. Dunn is the best player in this deal by a mile. Rielly is the worst player in this deal by quite a bit. Understand Brown and Sundqvist are very similar if not equal. Difference is Sundqvist steps up on Defense against Top Lines, Connor Brown hasn't ever done that. Another difference is Sundqvist has a better finishing percentage than Brown. Brown has had the same shooting percentages for awhile difference is he went to a new team got a bigger role, more ice time, and more shots that he takes. That's the only thing. If you want to believe that Connor Brown is this all elite player fine if he's so good keep him. We don't want him. We'll keep Dunn. Just agree to disagree leave it at this deal won't happen because both sides disagree. Blues like Dunn, and Sundqvist too much, and Ottawa fans think Connor Brown is the next Mark Stone/Leon Draisaitl. It's not the fact i'm delusional, it's the fact both of you haven't been watching Sundqvist play at all. You didn't watch first night when he took on Colorado and annihilated them. You didn't see how he changed the team when it came to playoffs. You don't see when things aren't working out Sundqvist 95% of the time gets moved to the top line to spark something. It's not the fact that I'm a homer, it's the fact I've watched every single hockey game from night one on NHL66.ir watching majority of the games in detail. Connor Brown wasn't very noticeable at all, but Sundqvist is literally blocking 12 shots in 9 games, and 27 hits in 9 games playing some of his best hockey on our PK. Connor Brown has 2 Primary and 2 Secondary assists has blocked 5 shots this season, and 5 hits this season. You are telling me he is on your checking line??? You want me to replace Sundqvist our best PK forward with Connor Brown? I mean come on 13 Total Goals have been scored against while he's been on the ice 6 of them have been on the Penalty Kill. Sundqvist against top lines 5 total goals have been scored while he's been on the ice and 3 of them were on the Penalty kill. I mean 43 points for a guy who spent the majority of the season with Pageau and Tkachuk. You wanna tell me he has that type of offensive upside when it's because of his teammates? brownco94

Ivan Barbashev, and Alexander Steen/MacKenzie MacEachern was the teammates that Sundqvist had last year, AND HE WAS STILL OUTPRODUCING BROWN IN ADVANCED STATS. So again like your argument here is like just basic homer crap, that I've already done my research on I was just waiting to come home and get it and finally I have. There isn't a way you can convince me or anyone else otherwise that this is a good deal for the Blues because it's simply not.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 4:32 p.m.
#44
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Quoting: BeastModeUnknown
I'm not saying you or sensibleguy has to agree with me. He put me on his ignore list because I'm not going to accept his homer opinion as an answer. Just because Brown averages first line TOI (which is how JFresh has that it's not based on his play on what line) it's doesn't matter if he plays more TOI or less TOI his stats are his stats. No way around it. It's pretty easy to get 43 points when you are a linemate of Tkachuk. I'm just saying from a standpoint. Sundqvist has been known on the Blues as the swiss army knife. He plays up and down the line and proved it first night against Colorado moved up the line got 2 goals in that game. Brown plays on the third line in Toronto, plays on a crappier team in Ottawa gets a top 6 spot. No way he makes top 6 in our lineup unless Hoffman goes out. If you wanna believe he's better sure, but Brown isn't better than Dunn. Dunn is the best player in this deal by a mile. Rielly is the worst player in this deal by quite a bit. Understand Brown and Sundqvist are very similar if not equal. Difference is Sundqvist steps up on Defense against Top Lines, Connor Brown hasn't ever done that. Another difference is Sundqvist has a better finishing percentage than Brown. Brown has had the same shooting percentages for awhile difference is he went to a new team got a bigger role, more ice time, and more shots that he takes. That's the only thing. If you want to believe that Connor Brown is this all elite player fine if he's so good keep him. We don't want him. We'll keep Dunn. Just agree to disagree leave it at this deal won't happen because both sides disagree. Blues like Dunn, and Sundqvist too much, and Ottawa fans think Connor Brown is the next Mark Stone/Leon Draisaitl. It's not the fact i'm delusional, it's the fact both of you haven't been watching Sundqvist play at all. You didn't watch first night when he took on Colorado and annihilated them. You didn't see how he changed the team when it came to playoffs. You don't see when things aren't working out Sundqvist 95% of the time gets moved to the top line to spark something. It's not the fact that I'm a homer, it's the fact I've watched every single hockey game from night one on NHL66.ir watching majority of the games in detail. Connor Brown wasn't very noticeable at all, but Sundqvist is literally blocking 12 shots in 9 games, and 27 hits in 9 games playing some of his best hockey on our PK. Connor Brown has 2 Primary and 2 Secondary assists has blocked 5 shots this season, and 5 hits this season. You are telling me he is on your checking line??? You want me to replace Sundqvist our best PK forward with Connor Brown? I mean come on 13 Total Goals have been scored against while he's been on the ice 6 of them have been on the Penalty Kill. Sundqvist against top lines 5 total goals have been scored while he's been on the ice and 3 of them were on the Penalty kill. I mean 43 points for a guy who spent the majority of the season with Pageau and Tkachuk. You wanna tell me he has that type of offensive upside when it's because of his teammates? brownco94

Ivan Barbashev, and Alexander Steen/MacKenzie MacEachern was the teammates that Sundqvist had last year, AND HE WAS STILL OUTPRODUCING BROWN IN ADVANCED STATS. So again like your argument here is like just basic homer crap, that I've already done my research on I was just waiting to come home and get it and finally I have. There isn't a way you can convince me or anyone else otherwise that this is a good deal for the Blues because it's simply not.


@csick is probably the only who can actually understand this mostly I know @sensibleguy isn't gonna want to appreciate this not sure on @Claesson4Norris will, but yeah this is just how I will directly give you why Blues would say this is a bad deal.
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 6:37 p.m.
#45
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Quoting: BeastModeUnknown
I'm not saying you or sensibleguy has to agree with me. He put me on his ignore list because I'm not going to accept his homer opinion as an answer. Just because Brown averages first line TOI (which is how JFresh has that it's not based on his play on what line) it's doesn't matter if he plays more TOI or less TOI his stats are his stats. No way around it. It's pretty easy to get 43 points when you are a linemate of Tkachuk. I'm just saying from a standpoint. Sundqvist has been known on the Blues as the swiss army knife. He plays up and down the line and proved it first night against Colorado moved up the line got 2 goals in that game. Brown plays on the third line in Toronto, plays on a crappier team in Ottawa gets a top 6 spot. No way he makes top 6 in our lineup unless Hoffman goes out. If you wanna believe he's better sure, but Brown isn't better than Dunn. Dunn is the best player in this deal by a mile. Rielly is the worst player in this deal by quite a bit. Understand Brown and Sundqvist are very similar if not equal. Difference is Sundqvist steps up on Defense against Top Lines, Connor Brown hasn't ever done that. Another difference is Sundqvist has a better finishing percentage than Brown. Brown has had the same shooting percentages for awhile difference is he went to a new team got a bigger role, more ice time, and more shots that he takes. That's the only thing. If you want to believe that Connor Brown is this all elite player fine if he's so good keep him. We don't want him. We'll keep Dunn. Just agree to disagree leave it at this deal won't happen because both sides disagree. Blues like Dunn, and Sundqvist too much, and Ottawa fans think Connor Brown is the next Mark Stone/Leon Draisaitl. It's not the fact i'm delusional, it's the fact both of you haven't been watching Sundqvist play at all. You didn't watch first night when he took on Colorado and annihilated them. You didn't see how he changed the team when it came to playoffs. You don't see when things aren't working out Sundqvist 95% of the time gets moved to the top line to spark something. It's not the fact that I'm a homer, it's the fact I've watched every single hockey game from night one on NHL66.ir watching majority of the games in detail. Connor Brown wasn't very noticeable at all, but Sundqvist is literally blocking 12 shots in 9 games, and 27 hits in 9 games playing some of his best hockey on our PK. Connor Brown has 2 Primary and 2 Secondary assists has blocked 5 shots this season, and 5 hits this season. You are telling me he is on your checking line??? You want me to replace Sundqvist our best PK forward with Connor Brown? I mean come on 13 Total Goals have been scored against while he's been on the ice 6 of them have been on the Penalty Kill. Sundqvist against top lines 5 total goals have been scored while he's been on the ice and 3 of them were on the Penalty kill. I mean 43 points for a guy who spent the majority of the season with Pageau and Tkachuk. You wanna tell me he has that type of offensive upside when it's because of his teammates? brownco94

Ivan Barbashev, and Alexander Steen/MacKenzie MacEachern was the teammates that Sundqvist had last year, AND HE WAS STILL OUTPRODUCING BROWN IN ADVANCED STATS. So again like your argument here is like just basic homer crap, that I've already done my research on I was just waiting to come home and get it and finally I have. There isn't a way you can convince me or anyone else otherwise that this is a good deal for the Blues because it's simply not.

Do you think that I’m acting like C Brown is an elite top liner, or Stone-esque? My whole point is that he’s not, and he’s doing well in a role way above his head. Yeah he played a lot with Tkachuk last year, but Pageau, Tierney, and Paul were his 1st, 3rd, and 4th most common linemates and they’re all 3rd liners on most teams, maybe 2nd on some, and he’s mostly with Tierney and Paul again this year, not much time with Tkachuk. He also scored 20 goals on Toronto’s 3rd line so he produces in that role just fine as well. If anything it’s harder to produce on Ottawa because even though he has one top line calibre linemate sometimes, the rest of the time he’s with 3rd liners and still produces at that higher rate. And he’s relied upon to go up against the best players in the league, not middle six matchups, and he has a porous defense behind him. If you don’t just cherry pick the stats you like and ignore the ones you don’t (opponent quality, possession metrics, etc.) if Sundqvist and Brown swapped teams Brown would likely be more impactful than Sundqvist is in St. Louis and Sundqvist would struggle more than Brown is in Ottawa.

Using hard stats like goals against this season is dumb when STL has only played 3 good teams (and Sundqvist was primarily matched up against the 4th line, sometimes 2nd line for those teams) and bottom-feeding teams for the other games, while Brown has played more minutes per game, and has matched up against Matthews 3 times, Scheifele 3 times, and Draisaitl once. And again, he has no support defensively or in net, whereas the Blues have a good goalie and one of the best D cores. So that was just all around a stupid comparison if you actually deign to look deeper than face value.

You have a point that Sundqvist is more physical sure, but more blocks doesn’t always mean better, Jack Johnson blocks a lot of shots and he’s not good. What that really means is you’re spending a lot of time in your own end and having to play defense, which is supported by his poor possession metrics. If anything that supports my point that Brown is more effective defensively as he can actually break the puck out and go the other way. Plus they have the same dzone start percentage so that’s not the explanation for why Sundqvist is in his own zone more. And again, Brown is playing against far superior competition. Maybe Sundqvist is a little more willing to throw himself in the way of the puck, but that doesn’t always help his team go the other way, which is what you want in order to win at hockey.

Calling Dunn the best player in this deal is just wrong in my opinion, he’s got good stats but he plays a sheltered, offensive role on the bottom pair with PP time. It’s great that he’s effective in that role but that doesn’t make him a top 4 guy when he’s never faced that quality of competition or taken a shift on the PK, so acting like being a good 3rd pair guy makes him a great top 4 guy and thus the best player in the deal is silly.

Brown is better at Sundqvist in a similar role both offensively (produces more generally with 3rd line calibre linemates while facing top line calibre opponents) and defensively (matches up against top line opponents and puts up better possession numbers). Being able to play up and down the lineup isn’t exactly a huge deal, but if you think it is then Brown can play on the 3rd line if you feel like it, and should play there, but he generally plays on the top line, which is better than generally playing on the 3rd line with the ability to sometimes play on the top line. Is this because Ottawa sucks? Obviously, but it doesn’t make it less true. In a lesser role he would only become more effective, and you have insurance in case of injuries. If Sundqvist is your best PK guy, then congratulations, you would get a new best PK guy. Posting a chart for Brown’s game by game stats from last year that shows him generally playing with 3rd liners and then saying “Sundqvist is better at advanced stats” is an odd statement that makes no logical sense and you haven’t backed it up at all. You could have at least posted Sundqvist’s chart for comparison and preferably explained exactly how that gives Sundqvist any sort of edge, because right now you’re just saying things, and that doesn’t make them true.

If we’re talking in terms of the trade proposed I would agree the value favours Ottawa, but it’s not because Dunn and Sundqvist are the two best players in the deal by a mile and the Blues are getting garbage. Brown is better than Sundqvist and Dunn is better than Rielly and they play in similar roles. The discrepancy is that Dunn is likely better in the 3LD PP2 role than Rielly by a larger margin than Brown is better in the 3RW PK1 role than Sundqvist is. If you then take into account that 3RW PK1 (arguably I’m being generous here as well, as even you admit Sundqvist spends time on the 4th line, while Brown is consistently top line in Ottawa despite being a middle six calibre player, he doesn’t play 4th line ever) is a more important role the value tips back in favour of the Blues as they’re getting the better player in that role, but goes back to Ottawa when you realize Dunn is younger and under team control for longer than Rielly. So that’s my thoughts on the trade, but the main thing I’ve been taking issue with is not the value there one way or the other, but the fact that you think Sundqvist is better than Brown when I have yet to find any data that supports this beyond surface level, which is often incorrect and the entire reason the advanced stats community has developed. Nobody cares about +/- or goals against if one player is playing Auston Matthews and the other is facing PE Bellemare, anyone would put up better numbers in those categories in the latter situation. I also take issue with Dunn being labeled a top 4 guy when he’s literally never played in that role and has been sheltered from any difficult matchup his whole career (which obviously a top 4 D would not be).

tldr provide any sort of evidence (preferably explained, not just random comments about swiss army knives or taking the piss out of a stat one guy’s good at without any reasoning) and look beyond the surface when comparing players on a good team vs. bad team. And consider opponent quality ffs lol
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 7:05 p.m.
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-Sundqvist is a jack of all trades, he can play on any lines if needed and will provides what the team need. A toolbox, and underrated player. But still a bottom 6 guy.
-Dunn is very talented, physical and he has a great shot, if paired with a good defensive D-Man he could be a 2nd or 3rd d-man easily.

-Brown is very good too but I think he is not as polyvalent as Sunny, but still I do not see him play that often so its my humble opinion. I think he's more gifted offensivelly tho.
-Reilly is the black duck in this trade. I live in Quebec and my favorite teams are CGY and STL but I watch a lot of Ottawa and Montreal games, and Rielly IMO is a 7th D. He can skate and move the puck well but he got a foot in the AHL and the other in the NHL.


Anyways, it's fun to have opinion from everyone and that's why we are here! Have a great day!

PS: I'm french so my english is not perfect sorry
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 7:40 p.m.
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Quoting: Alfie11
Do you think that I’m acting like C Brown is an elite top liner, or Stone-esque? My whole point is that he’s not, and he’s doing well in a role way above his head. Yeah he played a lot with Tkachuk last year, but Pageau, Tierney, and Paul were his 1st, 3rd, and 4th most common linemates and they’re all 3rd liners on most teams, maybe 2nd on some, and he’s mostly with Tierney and Paul again this year, not much time with Tkachuk. He also scored 20 goals on Toronto’s 3rd line so he produces in that role just fine as well. If anything it’s harder to produce on Ottawa because even though he has one top line calibre linemate sometimes, the rest of the time he’s with 3rd liners and still produces at that higher rate. And he’s relied upon to go up against the best players in the league, not middle six matchups, and he has a porous defense behind him. If you don’t just cherry pick the stats you like and ignore the ones you don’t (opponent quality, possession metrics, etc.) if Sundqvist and Brown swapped teams Brown would likely be more impactful than Sundqvist is in St. Louis and Sundqvist would struggle more than Brown is in Ottawa.

Using hard stats like goals against this season is dumb when STL has only played 3 good teams (and Sundqvist was primarily matched up against the 4th line, sometimes 2nd line for those teams) and bottom-feeding teams for the other games, while Brown has played more minutes per game, and has matched up against Matthews 3 times, Scheifele 3 times, and Draisaitl once. And again, he has no support defensively or in net, whereas the Blues have a good goalie and one of the best D cores. So that was just all around a stupid comparison if you actually deign to look deeper than face value.

You have a point that Sundqvist is more physical sure, but more blocks doesn’t always mean better, Jack Johnson blocks a lot of shots and he’s not good. What that really means is you’re spending a lot of time in your own end and having to play defense, which is supported by his poor possession metrics. If anything that supports my point that Brown is more effective defensively as he can actually break the puck out and go the other way. Plus they have the same dzone start percentage so that’s not the explanation for why Sundqvist is in his own zone more. And again, Brown is playing against far superior competition. Maybe Sundqvist is a little more willing to throw himself in the way of the puck, but that doesn’t always help his team go the other way, which is what you want in order to win at hockey.

Calling Dunn the best player in this deal is just wrong in my opinion, he’s got good stats but he plays a sheltered, offensive role on the bottom pair with PP time. It’s great that he’s effective in that role but that doesn’t make him a top 4 guy when he’s never faced that quality of competition or taken a shift on the PK, so acting like being a good 3rd pair guy makes him a great top 4 guy and thus the best player in the deal is silly.

Brown is better at Sundqvist in a similar role both offensively (produces more generally with 3rd line calibre linemates while facing top line calibre opponents) and defensively (matches up against top line opponents and puts up better possession numbers). Being able to play up and down the lineup isn’t exactly a huge deal, but if you think it is then Brown can play on the 3rd line if you feel like it, and should play there, but he generally plays on the top line, which is better than generally playing on the 3rd line with the ability to sometimes play on the top line. Is this because Ottawa sucks? Obviously, but it doesn’t make it less true. In a lesser role he would only become more effective, and you have insurance in case of injuries. If Sundqvist is your best PK guy, then congratulations, you would get a new best PK guy. Posting a chart for Brown’s game by game stats from last year that shows him generally playing with 3rd liners and then saying “Sundqvist is better at advanced stats” is an odd statement that makes no logical sense and you haven’t backed it up at all. You could have at least posted Sundqvist’s chart for comparison and preferably explained exactly how that gives Sundqvist any sort of edge, because right now you’re just saying things, and that doesn’t make them true.

If we’re talking in terms of the trade proposed I would agree the value favours Ottawa, but it’s not because Dunn and Sundqvist are the two best players in the deal by a mile and the Blues are getting garbage. Brown is better than Sundqvist and Dunn is better than Rielly and they play in similar roles. The discrepancy is that Dunn is likely better in the 3LD PP2 role than Rielly by a larger margin than Brown is better in the 3RW PK1 role than Sundqvist is. If you then take into account that 3RW PK1 (arguably I’m being generous here as well, as even you admit Sundqvist spends time on the 4th line, while Brown is consistently top line in Ottawa despite being a middle six calibre player, he doesn’t play 4th line ever) is a more important role the value tips back in favour of the Blues as they’re getting the better player in that role, but goes back to Ottawa when you realize Dunn is younger and under team control for longer than Rielly. So that’s my thoughts on the trade, but the main thing I’ve been taking issue with is not the value there one way or the other, but the fact that you think Sundqvist is better than Brown when I have yet to find any data that supports this beyond surface level, which is often incorrect and the entire reason the advanced stats community has developed. Nobody cares about +/- or goals against if one player is playing Auston Matthews and the other is facing PE Bellemare, anyone would put up better numbers in those categories in the latter situation. I also take issue with Dunn being labeled a top 4 guy when he’s literally never played in that role and has been sheltered from any difficult matchup his whole career (which obviously a top 4 D would not be).

tldr provide any sort of evidence (preferably explained, not just random comments about swiss army knives or taking the piss out of a stat one guy’s good at without any reasoning) and look beyond the surface when comparing players on a good team vs. bad team. And consider opponent quality ffs lol


sundqos94sundqos94sundqos94sundqos94

These are the main points, and Sundqvist is playing in a fourth line role because he's one of the better checking lines, and Sundqvist doesn't not only play bottom 6 lines, because the fact the Blues start the 4th line on the ice at beginning of the game most of the time show why he doesn't that just a little bit of proof. If you want to go based on his teammates being Paul and Tierney and whoever else in the mix. All of those players are better than barbashev offensively, and in normal circumstances, and probably right now even though stats aren't up to date this year probably better than Clifford offensively too. Don't keep it narrow minded that Sundqvist plays fourth line because that's how bad he is, no Berube loves to spread out talent on lines based on what he wants that line to be overall. Hoffman is on the third line right now. Sanford is on the first line with O'Reilly he primarily played with O'Reilly the past 2 years, I wouldn't put him above a 3rd liner in most cases, honestly Sundqvist night in night out outperforms him. This season Sundqvist has had a 60.9% Defensive Zone Start, so the fact that he's in his zone more time than in the offensive zone doesn't show poor metrics he just starts in his own zone a ton. They constantly put that line up against top lines. You'll see it often. Obviously I know Connor Brown is okay, but you see the stats up top.

brownco94brownco94

If he's so good why does the team have a more effective offensive rating with him off the ice?

brownco94brownco94

Why is it that offenses against Connor Brown have a +19 percent on the PK and without him on the PK it's a +9 Percent. No granted the PK of Ottawa is still bad either way, but it's worse with Connor Brown which proves my point. Only thing I will say and I've already spammed enough charts is that Brown has a +16 with on PP effectiveness. The fact that the 4 players that Brown played with the most was Tkachuk, Pageau, Tierney, Paul. And it was actually primarily Paul and Tkachuk as the top 2. Tkachuk is one of the best players on the team, and one of the most effective forwards right now. The top 4 players Sundqvist played with were Alexander Steen, MacKenzie MacEachern, Samuel Blais, Ivan Barbashev. Ivan Barbashev being the highest one and he has some very bad statlines on BOTH ends of the ice. I'm not gonna even get into how bad he is on measurements. Blais and Steen are okay, they aren't the worst but both of them are still below average. MacEachern is at best a Top 6 AHL player. Then when Sundqvist moves up the lineup he does very well because he has players around him, but I'm just saying the PK numbers speak for themselves that is an abysmal job by Connor Brown, and those are isolated numbers that has nothing to do with goaltending. Those are isolated numbers. Sundqvist over the past 2 years has had over 60% in Defensive Zone Start times. 58% the year before. They primarily use his line as a defensive line. Connor Brown doesn't have that great of a line.

Vince Dunn for the most part has had Robert Bortuzzo as his linemate with a mix in of Pietrangelo from time to time. Dunn's RAPM over 4 years has been exceptional. Mike Reilly your own fanbase on this server has called him "the worst defenseman on the team" If that's what you want us to downgrade to for if you want to say Brown is better, a very small upgrade to Brown when the gap between Reilly, and Dunn is that big. Especially when for upgrading at a very small portion we are taking on an extra million dollars that we do not have is preposterous for the Blues. Like I get where you are coming from, but the dynamic of the Blues is built on defense. We don't need Sundqvist to play offense all the time. Schwartz-Schenn-Kyrou line has been phenomenal, Hoffman-Thomas-Bozak/Blais line will find it's way. Sanford-O'Reilly-Perron line has been dynamic as well. But what I come back to on this deal, and it was even said by Doug Armstrong you want Vince Dunn it's going to cost you a first round pick.
Feb. 2, 2021 at 9:01 p.m.
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Quoting: Alfie11
Do you think that I’m acting like C Brown is an elite top liner, or Stone-esque? My whole point is that he’s not, and he’s doing well in a role way above his head. Yeah he played a lot with Tkachuk last year, but Pageau, Tierney, and Paul were his 1st, 3rd, and 4th most common linemates and they’re all 3rd liners on most teams, maybe 2nd on some, and he’s mostly with Tierney and Paul again this year, not much time with Tkachuk. He also scored 20 goals on Toronto’s 3rd line so he produces in that role just fine as well. If anything it’s harder to produce on Ottawa because even though he has one top line calibre linemate sometimes, the rest of the time he’s with 3rd liners and still produces at that higher rate. And he’s relied upon to go up against the best players in the league, not middle six matchups, and he has a porous defense behind him. If you don’t just cherry pick the stats you like and ignore the ones you don’t (opponent quality, possession metrics, etc.) if Sundqvist and Brown swapped teams Brown would likely be more impactful than Sundqvist is in St. Louis and Sundqvist would struggle more than Brown is in Ottawa.

Using hard stats like goals against this season is dumb when STL has only played 3 good teams (and Sundqvist was primarily matched up against the 4th line, sometimes 2nd line for those teams) and bottom-feeding teams for the other games, while Brown has played more minutes per game, and has matched up against Matthews 3 times, Scheifele 3 times, and Draisaitl once. And again, he has no support defensively or in net, whereas the Blues have a good goalie and one of the best D cores. So that was just all around a stupid comparison if you actually deign to look deeper than face value.

You have a point that Sundqvist is more physical sure, but more blocks doesn’t always mean better, Jack Johnson blocks a lot of shots and he’s not good. What that really means is you’re spending a lot of time in your own end and having to play defense, which is supported by his poor possession metrics. If anything that supports my point that Brown is more effective defensively as he can actually break the puck out and go the other way. Plus they have the same dzone start percentage so that’s not the explanation for why Sundqvist is in his own zone more. And again, Brown is playing against far superior competition. Maybe Sundqvist is a little more willing to throw himself in the way of the puck, but that doesn’t always help his team go the other way, which is what you want in order to win at hockey.

Calling Dunn the best player in this deal is just wrong in my opinion, he’s got good stats but he plays a sheltered, offensive role on the bottom pair with PP time. It’s great that he’s effective in that role but that doesn’t make him a top 4 guy when he’s never faced that quality of competition or taken a shift on the PK, so acting like being a good 3rd pair guy makes him a great top 4 guy and thus the best player in the deal is silly.

Brown is better at Sundqvist in a similar role both offensively (produces more generally with 3rd line calibre linemates while facing top line calibre opponents) and defensively (matches up against top line opponents and puts up better possession numbers). Being able to play up and down the lineup isn’t exactly a huge deal, but if you think it is then Brown can play on the 3rd line if you feel like it, and should play there, but he generally plays on the top line, which is better than generally playing on the 3rd line with the ability to sometimes play on the top line. Is this because Ottawa sucks? Obviously, but it doesn’t make it less true. In a lesser role he would only become more effective, and you have insurance in case of injuries. If Sundqvist is your best PK guy, then congratulations, you would get a new best PK guy. Posting a chart for Brown’s game by game stats from last year that shows him generally playing with 3rd liners and then saying “Sundqvist is better at advanced stats” is an odd statement that makes no logical sense and you haven’t backed it up at all. You could have at least posted Sundqvist’s chart for comparison and preferably explained exactly how that gives Sundqvist any sort of edge, because right now you’re just saying things, and that doesn’t make them true.

If we’re talking in terms of the trade proposed I would agree the value favours Ottawa, but it’s not because Dunn and Sundqvist are the two best players in the deal by a mile and the Blues are getting garbage. Brown is better than Sundqvist and Dunn is better than Rielly and they play in similar roles. The discrepancy is that Dunn is likely better in the 3LD PP2 role than Rielly by a larger margin than Brown is better in the 3RW PK1 role than Sundqvist is. If you then take into account that 3RW PK1 (arguably I’m being generous here as well, as even you admit Sundqvist spends time on the 4th line, while Brown is consistently top line in Ottawa despite being a middle six calibre player, he doesn’t play 4th line ever) is a more important role the value tips back in favour of the Blues as they’re getting the better player in that role, but goes back to Ottawa when you realize Dunn is younger and under team control for longer than Rielly. So that’s my thoughts on the trade, but the main thing I’ve been taking issue with is not the value there one way or the other, but the fact that you think Sundqvist is better than Brown when I have yet to find any data that supports this beyond surface level, which is often incorrect and the entire reason the advanced stats community has developed. Nobody cares about +/- or goals against if one player is playing Auston Matthews and the other is facing PE Bellemare, anyone would put up better numbers in those categories in the latter situation. I also take issue with Dunn being labeled a top 4 guy when he’s literally never played in that role and has been sheltered from any difficult matchup his whole career (which obviously a top 4 D would not be).

tldr provide any sort of evidence (preferably explained, not just random comments about swiss army knives or taking the piss out of a stat one guy’s good at without any reasoning) and look beyond the surface when comparing players on a good team vs. bad team. And consider opponent quality ffs lol


Some very sound reasoning here, and you have more patience than I do, at least in this thread. I hate putting people on ignore, but someone repeatedly telling me a 5 passenger car sits 9 people comfortably, isn’t long for my responses.

Cheers!
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 9:18 p.m.
#49
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Quoting: Twins1568
-Sundqvist is a jack of all trades, he can play on any lines if needed and will provides what the team need. A toolbox, and underrated player. But still a bottom 6 guy.
-Dunn is very talented, physical and he has a great shot, if paired with a good defensive D-Man he could be a 2nd or 3rd d-man easily.

-Brown is very good too but I think he is not as polyvalent as Sunny, but still I do not see him play that often so its my humble opinion. I think he's more gifted offensivelly tho.
-Reilly is the black duck in this trade. I live in Quebec and my favorite teams are CGY and STL but I watch a lot of Ottawa and Montreal games, and Rielly IMO is a 7th D. He can skate and move the puck well but he got a foot in the AHL and the other in the NHL.


Anyways, it's fun to have opinion from everyone and that's why we are here! Have a great day!

PS: I'm french so my english is not perfect sorry


Your English is top notch, and much better than my French.

An English word for polyvalent would be versatile, I had to look that one up, lol.

Every team has their Tyler Bozak, Mikael Backlund, or Connor Brown, but their success when they move between roles is what sets them apart. Backlund is great, one of my favourites, and I’ve always been a fan of Bozak. Both those guys are centres, but I’m looking at them as forwards. These guys play 5v5, PP, and PK, not just for 12 seconds, but they take their shifts in those roles. Sundqvist isn’t as versatile as these other guys.

Reilly was always just a cap hit balancer that can play NHL minutes. I’ve never built him up to be any more than that.

I would prefer a Brown for Dunn one for one, although I think Ottawa loses value, they gain improvement because of the other players currently on the team.

Appreciate the comments, cheers!
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Feb. 2, 2021 at 9:45 p.m.
#50
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Quoting: BeastModeUnknown
Not to mention the Blues asked for a First Round pick wanna talk about oblivious why don’t you look at what the Blues asked for first.


there are defnitely teams that would give up a first for connor brown
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