I'm not very confident in your research since you left out Montreal and Romanov who has established himself this year and was chosen a few picks after Sandin.

Romanov has half the NHL games played that Sandin does

and yet here he is with an established spot in the NHL, thriving, with no signs of ever being sent down again while Sandin is hanging out in the AHL after not being able to establish that spot even though hes played twice the games.

So Romanov gets half the games on a team with more open spots and he's "more established"? Sandin is only in the AHL because of cap and roster over load reasons. He's at least as good as Romanov.
Romanov wouldnt make the leafs and Sandin would be a regular in Montreal

A team with more open spots? The Leafs went looking for a big name UFA from Russia this summer and stated they wanted to move Dermott to the right side. Not exactly a sign of Dubas' confidence in Sandin. There were unarguably spots for him to take and he wasn't able. The facts would say you've got yourself backwards on this one, you've retreated into homer territory now.

The Leafs should always be looking for guys who might be good NHL players for cheap, every team should and that's if they have the worst or best defence in the NHL. Confidence in Sandin had nothing to do with it, especially when you point out that Montreal was also interested in Lethonen (and Zub who ottawa got) but couldnt get him to sign. Did they lack confidence in Romanov?
And what spots were open? The bottom pairing? Did you want him playing every 3rd game like Lethonen or did you want him playing top pair in the AHL?
Romanov would be getting the exact same treatment if he was a leaf. Saying Romanov is "more established" than Sandin because he's played less games and didnt even get a sniff of the NHL for a full season later looks like a pretty round-about way just to talk down Dubas.

This is also a handy distraction that most those other teams I named dont have anyone at all who has even played in the NHL

Lehtonen is on the left, Romanov is on the right. Do you even know what you are talking about?



Romanov would be the 3rd pairing right d on the Leafs. He'd be put in above Bogosian every game, bringing that same tough to play against, defensive style while just being a better defenseman by all the underlying numbers. If Sandin were in that class, he'd be the leafs 3rd pairing left D, not being traded in and out like Dermott and Lehtonen. Of course Dubas never saw Sandin as ready to be that 3rd pairing D because he went out and got Lehtonen.

My point is, with some exceptions, it is hard to find more than 10 players that the Leafs have drafted over say the past 25 drafts that you can call steady NHL players.

Lethonen can play the right too, and Zub plays the right, Do you know what you are talking about?

and no Romanov would not be ahead of Bogosian every game and he is not getting remotly tough defensive minutes, he's got over 60% offensive zone starts. Dude is being sheltered to hell while Bogosian is actually getting tough defensive assignments. Romanov would be a Marlie if he was a leaf

This sounds like a fun exercise. Steady NHL players drafted by the Leafs over the past 25 drafts:

Matthews
Nylander
Marner
Rielly
Brown
Kadri
Schenn
Pateryn
Gunnarsson
Tlusty
Kulemin
Riemer
Stalberg
Komarov
Rask
Stralman
Mitchell
Steen
Stajan
White
Colaiacovo
Wellwood
Boyes

Thats just going back to 2000 so there are a few more years in there but needless to say it was quite easy to find more than 10.

Ya, Bogosian isn't being sheltered at all with those 3rd pairing minutes and 52% OZS. Your homer is showing.

The lost so many years of a chance of being good. Quinn didn't like young players. so he buried them or traded them. Ferguson, Burke and Nonis...totally incompetent in UFA signings and draft choices
Though Lou brought good structure to the team, his drafts along with head scout Hunter were poor.

interesting point to make when you talked about Romanov getting that tough defensive game going with 62% offensive zone starts. The point wasnt that Bogosian was carrying the team defensivly, just that he was doing a heck of a lot more work in the D zone than Romanov is, so obiously the leafs wouldnt be using him over Bogosian for those minutes.
You're trying really really hard to make it sound like Romanov is "established" despite being sheltered and playing less games in the NHL than sandin, and even if Romanov was more established or whatever than Sandin, then what about literally every other team? if one team in the NHL has one top 10 pick player who is established in the same timeline then Dubas is clearly at very worst an average drafter.

Where'd I mention Romanov getting that 'tough defensive game going'. I stated he was tough to play against like Bogosian and brings the things Bogosian does just better. The underlying numbers say as much.

If were getting back to the point, its that Dubas doesn't have any proven draft successes. In 3 years of drafting he hasn't produced a single NHL player, rare amongst NHL teams. The only difference between Dubas and guys like Burke, Nonis, etc, is your perception of their drafting, not their actual results. You cant call one of those groups strong drafters and the others weak when theres no difference in the results.

Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly, Dermott, C Brown, Johnsson, Rask, Schenn, Kadri, Stajan, Wellwood and Ian White is 11 just off the top of my head. And that is covering a lot of years of terrible drafting from Burke and Nonis.

I'd bet you won't find many other teams with many more hits over the same time period. Shanahan since he arrived has put major resources into development. Which is what sets TO apart from other teams. The difference between a lot of players is non existent but with a little bit of development they can flourish. Which is why since Shanahan has come we've seen 2 7th round picks become decent NHL players. Johnsson and Engvall. I fully expect many other decent cheap depth pieces to come out of our drafting. Also trading for and developing other prospects should be considered home grown as well. Like Hyman for example, and for that matter Holl. Both were developed by TO but not drafted by us.

Now add guys who were developed by TO but not drafted like Holl and Hyman.

Holl and Hyman, 2 more pre-Dubas success stories btw.

except he doesnt do it better than Bogosian, he's being sheltered to hell.
And in 3 years of drafting no team has produced a single NHL player outside the top 10, which is the point every one else is making. The difference between Burke, Nonis etc is that we know they failed, while Dubas has at least 2 guys who are all but guarenteed to be NHLers in Robertson and Sandin,

the only reason Holl is an NHLer now is because Dubas believed in him and kept going to bad for him even when Babcock flat out refused to play him

Shanahan and Dubas deserve some credit for both. Dubas had him on the Marlies and Hyman wad a Marlie as well.

I think that's a pretty premature assessment of Dubas. He has made good picks since he's been in charge. The team is further along and those guys don't need to be rushed in which is why we haven't seen the likes of Liljegren, Sandin and everyone else drafted play much yet. Give them time, there are many good looking prospects that could provide meaningful minutes down the line.

Except this is factually untrue as we just saw.

This is such a dumb statement, the team is deep and good right now, they can afford to develop their players more. Both Sandin and Liljegren are likely going to play next season. Robertson likely this year or next. And there are several other players who look good overseas. A good team shouldn't be forced to put teenagers into NHL games unless they really blow off the doors. I think Dubas is going to have a steady stream of good players to fill holes down the lineup over the coming years.

They are good picks only because you perceive them that way and there hasn't been time to prove it false yet. A fanbase is always high on its prospects until its clear they won't make the NHL. LIke I said, the only difference between the 2 groups is your perception and not the actual facts.



You realize that exact same thing about Sandin and Liljegren has been said for a few offseasons now? Same thing for Robertson for 2 now. Like I've been saying, its homer perception of the prospects, not the actual facts.

Sandin would be playing big minutes on some teams in the league though, teams with less depth. TO can afford to develop more, it doesn't mean Sandin is a bust, it means he doesn't need to be rushed. You are really not looking at this right.