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Mantha Holloway pt2

Created by: SweetRevenge19
Team: 2020-21 Edmonton Oilers
Initial Creation Date: Feb. 21, 2021
Published: Feb. 21, 2021
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
I think this trade is good for both sides
Trades
1.
DET
  1. Holloway, Dylan [Reserve List]
  2. Neal, James
  3. Turris, Kyle
  4. 2022 1st round pick (EDM)
2.
EDM
DET
  1. 2023 2nd round pick (EDM)
Buyouts
Retained Salary Transactions
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2021
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2022
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2023
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$74,089,032$341,534$1,230,000$7,410,968
Left WingCentreRight Wing
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$2,850,000$2,850,000
LW, RW
UFA - 4
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$12,500,000$12,500,000
C
UFA - 6
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$1,175,000$1,175,000
RW
UFA - 2
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$6,000,000$6,000,000
LW, C
UFA - 1
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$8,500,000$8,500,000
C, LW
UFA - 5
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$894,166$894,166 (Performance Bonus$230,000$230K)
RW
RFA - 1
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$1,200,000$1,200,000
LW, C
UFA - 1
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$2,150,000$2,150,000
RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$975,000$975,000
LW, RW, C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Detroit Red Wings
$1,800,000$1,800,000
C, RW, LW
UFA - 1
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$1,500,000$1,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
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$1,000,000$1,000,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
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$5,600,000$5,600,000
LD
UFA - 2
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$3,750,000$3,750,000
RD
UFA - 1
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$4,500,000$4,500,000
G
M-NTC
UFA - 2
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$0$0
LD
UFA - 1
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$4,166,666$4,166,666
RD
UFA - 1
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$1,500,000$1,500,000 (Performance Bonus$500,000$500K)
G
NTC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$850,000$850,000
LD/RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$863,333$863,333 (Performance Bonus$500,000$500K)
RD
RFA - 3
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$915,000$915,000
C
UFA - 1
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$2,000,000$2,000,000
RD
UFA - 2
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$4,167,000$4,167,000
LD
UFA - 3
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$850,000$850,000
LD/RD
UFA - 2
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$3,200,000$3,200,000
RW
UFA - 4
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$700,000$700,000
LW, C, RW
UFA - 1
Taxi Squad
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$4,000,000$4,000,000 ($2,925,000$3M$2,925,000$3M)
LD/RD
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$875,000$875,000 ($0$0$0$0)
LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$745,000$745,000 ($0$0$0$0) (Performance Bonus$132,500$132K)
G
UFA - 1
Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
$725,000$725,000 ($0$0$0$0)
LD/RD
UFA - 2

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Feb. 21, 2021 at 10:54 a.m.
#1
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Mantha is worth Holloway and the 1st by himself. You'd have to give another 1st for them to take Neal's contract as well.
buffbry liked this.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 11:19 a.m.
#2
Pistol Pete
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I think holland would like Martha but he’s Detroit’s golden boy and an offensive driver for them he’s the nuge of Detroit.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 11:28 a.m.
#3
Buffbry
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You forgot to throw in broberg and rodrigue
Feb. 21, 2021 at 11:29 a.m.
#4
arky
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So take on to crappy contracts for nothing and then trade Mantha and Glendening for a prospect and a 1st. Why do you think Yzerman would even entertain this trade? It does absolutely nothing to help the Wings, short or long term. Only takes cap space away short term and prolongs the rebuild long term.

Also can you show where Yzerman has taken bad contracts for nothing, even in the Staal deal he got a stop gap and a 2nd.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 11:33 a.m.
#5
arky
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I guess the best thing to say to you is unless if we trade Mantha we are not taking on your crappy contracts and PLEASE do not bring up the cap floor because it is just such a bad arguement, Wings will easily make the cap floor.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 12:48 p.m.
#6
Ouch
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Quoting: mikearky
So take on to crappy contracts for nothing and then trade Mantha and Glendening for a prospect and a 1st. Why do you think Yzerman would even entertain this trade? It does absolutely nothing to help the Wings, short or long term. Only takes cap space away short term and prolongs the rebuild long term.

Also can you show where Yzerman has taken bad contracts for nothing, even in the Staal deal he got a stop gap and a 2nd.


That's a bad argument, taking on Neal's contract or not to this trade still improves your rebuild.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 12:49 p.m.
#7
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Quoting: Zmach
I think holland would like Martha but he’s Detroit’s golden boy and an offensive driver for them he’s the nuge of Detroit.


Larkin is Detroit’s golden boy. Mantha is not off limits if it’s the right deal. Detroit fans don’t like it bc he’s the best offensive player on a team that lacks offensive. But it’s shortsighted to not entertain trading him for futures that better lineup with Detroit’s rebuild.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 1:18 p.m.
#8
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So I see it as LGD fetches a third round pick at TDL, Nemeth a second round pick with retention, and Mantha. Neal would require a first to move imo and Turris isn’t worth anything. Holloway is tracking well and I like his play style from the few games I’ve watched. So then it comes down to Mantha + 2nd + 3rd for Holloway which I don’t even consider. Maybe switching the first to Broberg helps value wise but would Edmonton want to lose two of their top 3 prospects?
Feb. 21, 2021 at 1:25 p.m.
#9
Pop Pop
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Quoting: SweetRevenge19
Larkin is Detroit’s golden boy. Mantha is not off limits if it’s the right deal. Detroit fans don’t like it bc he’s the best offensive player on a team that lacks offensive. But it’s shortsighted to not entertain trading him for futures that better lineup with Detroit’s rebuild.


So I think a mantha for a 1st and Holloway is a good base to start. I'd even be open to taking turris since we're gonna need bodies in the bottom 6 next year. I'm not taking Neal though. That's just a no unless you kick in to move him.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 1:27 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: JmoneyTalk
That's a bad argument, taking on Neal's contract or not to this trade still improves your rebuild.


You’re right, it’s a very bad argument. Detroit would be wise to sell Mantha for futures. Taking on Neal’s contract isn’t really an issue for Detroit. Adding future pieces to help rebuild faster should be the priority. And Oilers would be wise to put Mantha next to McDavid.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 1:36 p.m.
#11
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Quoting: Jfstompers
So I think a mantha for a 1st and Holloway is a good base to start. I'd even be open to taking turris since we're gonna need bodies in the bottom 6 next year. I'm not taking Neal though. That's just a no unless you kick in to move him.


But they aren’t going after any big free agents this offseason, have a ton coming off the books, plus Neal’s contact offsets with Mantha. The following 2022 offseason I think they could attempt to go after free agents. At that point, they’d have another $10mil Nielsen and DeKeyser coming off books. They could even buy out the last year of Neal to save $3.75 if they wanted.
What you think needs added to make it fair? Maybe add a 2022 or 2023 3rd rd pick to Detroit?
Feb. 21, 2021 at 1:43 p.m.
#12
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Quoting: SweetRevenge19
You’re right, it’s a very bad argument. Detroit would be wise to sell Mantha for futures. Taking on Neal’s contract isn’t really an issue for Detroit. Adding future pieces to help rebuild faster should be the priority. And Oilers would be wise to put Mantha next to McDavid.

You do need quality vets though to shelter your prospects. You can’t just run a team of ELCs, that’s how you become Edmonton pre-McDavid or Buffalo pre-Eichel.

Quoting: SweetRevenge19
But they aren’t going after any big free agents this offseason, have a ton coming off the books, plus Neal’s contact offsets with Mantha. The following 2022 offseason I think they could attempt to go after free agents. At that point, they’d have another $10mil Nielsen and DeKeyser coming off books. They could even buy out the last year of Neal to save $3.75 if they wanted.
What you think needs added to make it fair? Maybe add a 2022 or 2023 3rd rd pick to Detroit?

Why do you think Yzerman won’t go after any big FAs? It was rumored that he kicked the can on Hall this last off season.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 2:00 p.m.
#13
Pop Pop
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Quoting: SweetRevenge19
But they aren’t going after any big free agents this offseason, have a ton coming off the books, plus Neal’s contact offsets with Mantha. The following 2022 offseason I think they could attempt to go after free agents. At that point, they’d have another $10mil Nielsen and DeKeyser coming off books. They could even buy out the last year of Neal to save $3.75 if they wanted.
What you think needs added to make it fair? Maybe add a 2022 or 2023 3rd rd pick to Detroit?


Oh they have the cash for him if they want to spend it but Idk if they would. Its 2 years at 5 million , we got a 2nd to take staal for 1 year 6 million so id think theyd want the same for neal. Now your talking a crazy looking trade though. Holloway a 1st 2nd turris and Neal for mantha and say they throw nemeth in since hes a good warrior but a bottom pair dman.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 2:10 p.m.
#14
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Quoting: BStinson
You do need quality vets though to shelter your prospects. You can’t just run a team of ELCs, that’s how you become Edmonton pre-McDavid or Buffalo pre-Eichel.


Why do you think Yzerman won’t go after any big FAs? It was rumored that he kicked the can on Hall this last off season.


Bc it doesn’t make sense to add big free agents this far away from competing. And DEFINITELY not before getting a top pick for the 2022 draft. Stay awful one more year then add. Also the 2022 FA class has more higher end UFA’s than 2021, like Seth Jones, Forsberg, and Barkov for example... And more.. Couturier, Merzlikins, Korpisalo, Klingberg just way better FA class top to bottom, very deep. 2021 FA class is unimpressive. Teams should be looking ahead IMO. And 2023 is McKinnon, Ryan O’Reilly, Patrick Kane, Pastrnak, Huberdeau, Monahan, Dumba. Obvi some resign but some will test.

I never said don’t surround the kids with vets. Never suggested a team full of ELC’s. Yzerman will continue with the low end one and two year value deals like Nemeth, Merrill, Stecher, Ryan, Namestnikov and remaining flexible until the roster is in place and ready to spend on.
And we didn’t throw our kids right into the fire like Edmonton and Buffalo, so I disagree with the comparisons even.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 2:24 p.m.
#15
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Quoting: SweetRevenge19
Bc it doesn’t make sense to add big free agents this far away from competing. And DEFINITELY not before getting a top pick for the 2022 draft. Stay awful one more year then add. Also the 2022 FA class has more higher end UFA’s than 2021, like Seth Jones, Forsberg, and Barkov for example... And more.. Couturier, Merzlikins, Korpisalo, Klingberg just way better FA class top to bottom, very deep. 2021 FA class is unimpressive. Teams should be looking ahead IMO. And 2023 is McKinnon, Ryan O’Reilly, Patrick Kane, Pastrnak, Huberdeau, Monahan, Dumba. Obvi some resign but some will test.

I never said don’t surround the kids with vets. Never suggested a team full of ELC’s. Yzerman will continue with the low end one and two year value deals like Nemeth, Merrill, Stecher, Ryan, Namestnikov and remaining flexible until the roster is in place and ready to spend on.
And we didn’t throw our kids right into the fire like Edmonton and Buffalo, so I disagree with the comparisons even.

“Adding future pieces to help rebuild faster should be the priority.” I take this as selling off signed contributing veterans (eg Mantha) for futures. Mantha honesty is our only true first line winger as Bertuzzi is more a second liner and Zadina is still learning. It’s the same philosophy to an extent Buffalo & Edmonton did until a franchise/generational center and other multiple high draft picks have dragged them from the basement (well Edmonton at least).

Most high profile free agents re-sign with their team anyway and with Yzerman going after Hall I’d wager he’d take a hard look at Hamilton, Hall, Landeskog, RNH, Danault, etc. to see if maybe they’d entertain coming to Detroit. A closed mouth never gets fed and I’m sure our team would be more entertaining this year with Hall on it. Let’s say Hall signed with us instead of Buffalo, he helps improve our team by some more wins but not enough to take us out of a top 5-6 pick and then gets flipped at the TDL for a first +.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 2:34 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: Jfstompers
Oh they have the cash for him if they want to spend it but Idk if they would. Its 2 years at 5 million , we got a 2nd to take staal for 1 year 6 million so id think theyd want the same for neal. Now your talking a crazy looking trade though. Holloway a 1st 2nd turris and Neal for mantha and say they throw nemeth in since hes a good warrior but a bottom pair dman.

Staal didn’t cost 6M as NY paid his signing bonus so he is 3.2M cash. While 2 years of Neal at 5.75M is 11.5M (but also 2 years).
Feb. 21, 2021 at 3:07 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: BStinson
“Adding future pieces to help rebuild faster should be the priority.” I take this as selling off signed contributing veterans (eg Mantha) for futures. Mantha honesty is our only true first line winger as Bertuzzi is more a second liner and Zadina is still learning. It’s the same philosophy to an extent Buffalo & Edmonton did until a franchise/generational center and other multiple high draft picks have dragged them from the basement (well Edmonton at least).

Most high profile free agents re-sign with their team anyway and with Yzerman going after Hall I’d wager he’d take a hard look at Hamilton, Hall, Landeskog, RNH, Danault, etc. to see if maybe they’d entertain coming to Detroit. A closed mouth never gets fed and I’m sure our team would be more entertaining this year with Hall on it. Let’s say Hall signed with us instead of Buffalo, he helps improve our team by some more wins but not enough to take us out of a top 5-6 pick and then gets flipped at the TDL for a first +.


Zadina is already proving himself top line and driving play better than Mo right now. Mantha is proving he can’t drive the the 2nd line by himself, he isn’t that type of player, his career needs McDavid or another skilled center feeding him pucks so he can be most effective. He’s being wasted. Selling him now fits our timeline and helps the rebuild by adding extra assets to fill out more holes. Which there are a lot. It’s taking one step back to take three steps forward. Bert is effective on any line. Raymond coming soon. Holloway ready soon. Veleno coming soon. Add Berggren to list if you like. Getting the franchise center in 2022 draft is imperative and a must have for this rebuild. I can see Danault, but he will want more term than I think Wings offer and it doesn’t really move the needle. And but Hall didn’t sign, and he’s unlikely to sign another 1year. Like you admit, Hall doesn’t move the needle for us yet, so it’s almost pointless, and unlikely anyways and takes us out of a top 3 pick in the most important draft in a decade. Just like hanging onto Mantha doesn’t make sense when we’re still so far off.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 3:21 p.m.
#18
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Quoting: SweetRevenge19
Zadina is already proving himself top line and driving play better than Mo right now. Mantha is proving he can’t drive the the 2nd line by himself, he isn’t that type of player, his career needs McDavid or another skilled center feeding him pucks so he can be most effective. He’s being wasted. Selling him now fits our timeline and helps the rebuild by adding extra assets to fill out more holes. Which there are a lot. It’s taking one step back to take three steps forward. Bert is effective on any line. Raymond coming soon. Holloway ready soon. Veleno coming soon. Add Berggren to list if you like. Getting the franchise center in 2022 draft is imperative and a must have for this rebuild. I can see Danault, but he will want more term than I think Wings offer and it doesn’t really move the needle. And but Hall didn’t sign, and he’s unlikely to sign another 1year. Like you admit, Hall doesn’t move the needle for us yet, so it’s almost pointless, and unlikely anyways and takes us out of a top 3 pick in the most important draft in a decade. Just like hanging onto Mantha doesn’t make sense when we’re still so far off.

Zadina has looked good but I don’t know if I label him a first line winger this season. He’s played 13 games this year with a stat line of 1 goal and 3 assists. He’s not a defensive liability which helps but usually you see more production out of a top line guy and I’m not saying he can’t turn into that but this year he hasn’t shown it.

Mantha weirdly enough is our second leading scorer behind Larkin but I agree for him to flourish he needs a true playmaking center (Larkin isn’t that).

Yes, Bertuzzi is effective on any line as that meat and potatoes type player but doesn’t make him a bonafide top line winger on a playoff team.

Raymond needs to recover from that elbow fracture and I’d wager he spends a little time in Grand Rapids before his debut.

Berggren will definitely need to adjust to NA and improve on his defensive deficiencies before NHL.

Everyone likes to point to getting a franchise center in 2022 but what are the odds? Even if you finish dead last you have a higher probability of picking 4th overall than 1-3 combined.

I merely mentioned Hall because it was reported Yzerman kicked the can on him and what our team would look like with him plus the futures we’d get for flipping him.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 3:33 p.m.
#19
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Quoting: JmoneyTalk
That's a bad argument, taking on Neal's contract or not to this trade still improves your rebuild.


I disagree. Mantha for Holloway could be bad for Detroit. Holloway is about 2yrs away. Like it or not Mantha helps Detroit even when he isn't scoring he draws the attention of the other teams D. While he is streaky but he can get hot and on a run where he is scoring over point a game. Now if he is traded for Holloway there is nothing to fill that hole for at least a season possible 2. Then you run the risk of pissing off the younger players that are still in Detroit. Edmonton has can afford to wait for Holloway progress because of the offense they already have they are tied for 1st in goals for but they have allowed the 5th most goals in the league so if they make a move it will for a defenseman or a goalie. Holland knows adding more offense does not fix a bad defense or improve an average defense. Personally neither team does this because it doesn't make sense for either team and both Holland and Yzerman know what they are doing.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 3:37 p.m.
#20
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Quoting: BStinson
Zadina has looked good but I don’t know if I label him a first line winger this season. He’s played 13 games this year with a stat line of 1 goal and 3 assists. He’s not a defensive liability which helps but usually you see more production out of a top line guy and I’m not saying he can’t turn into that but this year he hasn’t shown it.

Mantha weirdly enough is our second leading scorer behind Larkin but I agree for him to flourish he needs a true playmaking center (Larkin isn’t that).

Yes, Bertuzzi is effective on any line as that meat and potatoes type player but doesn’t make him a bonafide top line winger on a playoff team.

Raymond needs to recover from that elbow fracture and I’d wager he spends a little time in Grand Rapids before his debut.

Berggren will definitely need to adjust to NA and improve on his defensive deficiencies before NHL.

Everyone likes to point to getting a franchise center in 2022 but what are the odds? Even if you finish dead last you have a higher probability of picking 4th overall than 1-3 combined.


Yah, the whole team can’t score, and we’re playing ultra conservative defensive tactics to give team competitive chance at winning. I’m not looking at Zadina’s counting stats this season to tell the story on his top of lineup projection. You’re just proving how far off Wings are and how early in the rebuild. I’m not expecting any of these players next year. Just said soon.. like, they are all top of lineup options on the way.
2022 has 4 top centers, not just one. We need to be in position to get one of the four, it’s not far fetched. Holding onto Mantha doesn’t make sense. Sell him before his trade value is completely cratered on this team.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 4:46 p.m.
#21
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Quoting: SweetRevenge19
Yah, the whole team can’t score, and we’re playing ultra conservative defensive tactics to give team competitive chance at winning. I’m not looking at Zadina’s counting stats this season to tell the story on his top of lineup projection. You’re just proving how far off Wings are and how early in the rebuild. I’m not expecting any of these players next year. Just said soon.. like, they are all top of lineup options on the way.
2022 has 4 top centers, not just one. We need to be in position to get one of the four, it’s not far fetched. Holding onto Mantha doesn’t make sense. Sell him before his trade value is completely cratered on this team.

Why hold onto Larkin or Bertuzzi when we can load up on futures then? Bert has one RFA year left and Larks has 3 years IIRC. My point is where do you draw the line? I can see the point in holding onto Larkin as he’s a center and captain but then Bertuzzi should be shipped off too.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 5:46 p.m.
#22
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Quoting: BStinson
Why hold onto Larkin or Bertuzzi when we can load up on futures then? Bert has one RFA year left and Larks has 3 years IIRC. My point is where do you draw the line? I can see the point in holding onto Larkin as he’s a center and captain but then Bertuzzi should be shipped off too.


Don’t be ridiculous, you clearly know that’s not what I’m saying. Probably draw the line after Mantha. It’s not like Mantha has the elite work ethic of those other two to teach to young players. Larkin and Bert are better players. But Bert isn’t immune either if it’s the right deal and makes sense for the rebuild. But he’s not returning what Mantha could, that’s the whole point of it being Mantha.
And is Larkin a center? I’m definitely not sold. Sure he plays the position now and can be effective there, but a case could be made that his most dynamic offensive position is actually at wing and that he only plays center out of necessity. He certainly isn’t a shutdown defensive center in the Selke convo (yet?), doesn’t have the top end creative offensive mind as a puck dominating distributor. I see him eventually back at wing down the road a la Stamkos once we can find centers.. winning board battles, doing dirty work for two higher end skill guys, capitalizing on his speed and finishing abilities
Feb. 21, 2021 at 6:13 p.m.
#23
arky
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Quoting: SweetRevenge19
Zadina is already proving himself top line and driving play better than Mo right now. Mantha is proving he can’t drive the the 2nd line by himself, he isn’t that type of player, his career needs McDavid or another skilled center feeding him pucks so he can be most effective. He’s being wasted. Selling him now fits our timeline and helps the rebuild by adding extra assets to fill out more holes. Which there are a lot. It’s taking one step back to take three steps forward. Bert is effective on any line. Raymond coming soon. Holloway ready soon. Veleno coming soon. Add Berggren to list if you like. Getting the franchise center in 2022 draft is imperative and a must have for this rebuild. I can see Danault, but he will want more term than I think Wings offer and it doesn’t really move the needle. And but Hall didn’t sign, and he’s unlikely to sign another 1year. Like you admit, Hall doesn’t move the needle for us yet, so it’s almost pointless, and unlikely anyways and takes us out of a top 3 pick in the most important draft in a decade. Just like hanging onto Mantha doesn’t make sense when we’re still so far off.


There are problems with your ideas.

Teams in rebuild do not trade younger players for even younger unproven players and picks. In 3 years teams will want Holloway, if he is good, and they will say it helps the re uild.
Two no teams in a rebuild take in horrible cap contracts for nothing, even if they have the cap space. That is just not how it works. You want the Wi gs to take on Neal's contract for nothing. Why would Yzerman due that, you never answered that question? To even out the cap is not Wings problem, it is the Oilers probelm. If you want Wings to solve the problem you have to pay for that solution. Simple business equation.

I guess in short, rebuilding clubs have to set a line in the sand and then go from there. Yzerman has set the line and guys like Larkin, Bertuzzi Mantha, Hronek, Zadina and Seider are the building blocks. You build from there. We have already taken the 3 steps back and we can only go up from there, not back again. If they did they could lose the fan base.

Again I beleive Yzerman will continue to build the team thru the draft, cherry pick 1 and two contract players to fill gaps, until his draft picks are ready and then dig into the free agent pool. Until then his core will be ent as CT unless he gets a to good to be true offer. And I believe, contrary to you that this is not it.
Feb. 21, 2021 at 6:46 p.m.
#24
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Quoting: mikearky
There are problems with your ideas.

Teams in rebuild do not trade younger players for even younger unproven players and picks. In 3 years teams will want Holloway, if he is good, and they will say it helps the re uild.
Two no teams in a rebuild take in horrible cap contracts for nothing, even if they have the cap space. That is just not how it works. You want the Wi gs to take on Neal's contract for nothing. Why would Yzerman due that, you never answered that question? To even out the cap is not Wings problem, it is the Oilers probelm. If you want Wings to solve the problem you have to pay for that solution. Simple business equation.

I guess in short, rebuilding clubs have to set a line in the sand and then go from there. Yzerman has set the line and guys like Larkin, Bertuzzi Mantha, Hronek, Zadina and Seider are the building blocks. You build from there. We have already taken the 3 steps back and we can only go up from there, not back again. If they did they could lose the fan base.

Again I beleive Yzerman will continue to build the team thru the draft, cherry pick 1 and two contract players to fill gaps, until his draft picks are ready and then dig into the free agent pool. Until then his core will be ent as CT unless he gets a to good to be true offer. And I believe, contrary to you that this is not it.


I don’t think you realize how bad this team is and just how big of a climb up it’s going to be. Mantha will be a dinosaur by then. You’re forgiven for not understanding rebuilds and how to expedite a rebuild since the Wings haven’t been in one in nearly four decades. I understand the deal is worse for the Wings right now, but the benefits in the future is why it’s worth it. You also didn’t even list all the actual building blocks... you just named the current best players plus Seider. It’s also clear you don’t know much about Holloway as a player. He is a Larkin clone who could end up being better. Plus getting another 1st round pick in a draft being labeled deep.
I’ll agree we disagree.
What needs added from Oilers in your opinion to make this a trade the Wings should make?
Feb. 21, 2021 at 7:18 p.m.
#25
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Quoting: SweetRevenge19
Don’t be ridiculous, you clearly know that’s not what I’m saying. Probably draw the line after Mantha. It’s not like Mantha has the elite work ethic of those other two to teach to young players. Larkin and Bert are better players. But Bert isn’t immune either if it’s the right deal and makes sense for the rebuild. But he’s not returning what Mantha could, that’s the whole point of it being Mantha.
And is Larkin a center? I’m definitely not sold. Sure he plays the position now and can be effective there, but a case could be made that his most dynamic offensive position is actually at wing and that he only plays center out of necessity. He certainly isn’t a shutdown defensive center in the Selke convo (yet?), doesn’t have the top end creative offensive mind as a puck dominating distributor. I see him eventually back at wing down the road a la Stamkos once we can find centers.. winning board battles, doing dirty work for two higher end skill guys, capitalizing on his speed and finishing abilities


I’m just analyzing your argument to move Mo. You’ve mentioned Mo not fitting our rebuild timeline, then does Larkin or Bert? I even said Larkin probably stays because position scarcity and being named captain. You then mentioned Mo not being able to drive a second line but neither does Bert as he’s a complimentary piece. This post gets down to why you’re singling out Mo which is what I was after, you think he holds more value than Bert and you’d be willing to move Bert if a decent chunk of futures were offered at a later time. I see the argument and would consider shipping out both Bert and Mo as I believe a top 6 winger can be replaced much easier than a bonafide top 6 center or top 4 defense. I also see the value in bringing in those quality veterans in competing for spots to not accept a culture of losing and hopefully fostering winning habits in our youth pipeline. There isn’t a cookie cutter template for winning the Stanley Cup except for creating the most complete and efficient team by any means necessary and I’m sorry if my questions came off smug as I didn’t mean them too but rather wanted to really understand your rationale.

Larkin I don’t see as a Stanley Cup contending 1C unless he was surrounded by extremely dynamic wingers (eg Panarin, Kuch, etc). I see him as a defensively responsible 2C that can bandaid 1C duties if injured. It’s one reason I’m hesitant on Berniers this year in that I see him as a Larkin clone (not a bad thing) vs a Kent Johnson who isn’t as polished but has a that elite 1C upside.
 
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