Forums/Armchair-GM

An idea I had if they want to rebuild

Created by: sens65
Initial Creation Date: Feb 28, 2021
Published: Feb 28 at 11:31
Team: 2020-21 Pittsburgh Penguins
Team Explanation
Is the value even in the ballpark?
Trades
PIT
  1. Tavares, John ($2,300,000 retained)
  2. Robertson, Nicholas
  3. Hirvonen, Roni [Reserve List]
  4. Amirov, Rodion [Reserve List]
  5. Hållander, Filip
  6. 2021 1st round pick (TOR)
  7. 2022 1st round pick (TOR)
TOR
  1. Crosby, Sidney
Buyouts
  • Jack Johnson: $1,166,667
Retained Salary Transactions
  • Nick Bjugstad: $2,050,000 (50%)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2021
TOR
PIT
PIT
PIT
WSH
ANA
2022
PIT
TOR
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
2023
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
25$81,500,000$78,131,009$0$1,245,000$3,368,991
Left WingCenterRight Wing
PIT
Guentzel, Jake
$6,000,000
LW, RW
UFA - 4
PIT
Malkin, Evgeni
$9,500,000
C
NMC
UFA - 2
PIT
Tanev, Brandon
$3,500,000
RW, LW
NTC
UFA - 5
PIT
McCann, Jared
$2,940,000
LW, C
RFA - 2
TOR
Tavares, John
$8,700,000
C
NMC
UFA - 5
PIT
Rust, Bryan
$3,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
PIT
Aston-Reese, Zach
$1,000,000
LW, RW
RFA - 1
PIT
Blueger, Teddy
$750,000
C, LW
RFA - 1
PIT
Kapanen, Kasperi
$3,200,000
RW
RFA - 2
PIT
Jankowski, Mark
$700,000
LW, C
RFA - 1
PIT
Lafferty, Sam
$750,000
C, LW
UFA - 2
PIT
Sceviour, Colton
$1,200,000
RW
UFA - 1
TOR
Robertson, Nicholas
$821,667
LW
RFA - 3
PIT
Angello, Anthony
$725,000
C, RW
RFA - 2
TOR
Hållander, Filip
$764,167
C
RFA - 3
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
PIT
Matheson, Michael
$4,875,000
LD
UFA - 6
PIT
Letang, Kris
$7,250,000
RD
NMC NTC
UFA - 2
PIT
Jarry, Tristan
$3,500,000
G
UFA - 3
PIT
Pettersson, Marcus
$4,025,175
LD
UFA - 5
PIT
Ceci, Cody
$1,250,000
RD
UFA - 1
PIT
DeSmith, Casey
$1,250,000
G
UFA - 2
PIT
Joseph, Pierre-Olivier
$863,333
LD
RFA - 2
PIT
Marino, John
$925,000
RD
UFA - 1
PIT
Friedman, Mark
$725,000
RD
RFA - 2
PIT
Ruhwedel, Chad
$700,000
RD
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
PIT
Zucker, Jason
$5,500,000
LW, RW
NTC
UFA - 3
PIT
Dumoulin, Brian
$4,100,000
LD
NTC
UFA - 3
PIT
Riikola, Juuso
$1,150,000
LD
UFA - 2
PIT
Rodrigues, Evan
$700,000
RW, C
UFA - 1
Taxi Squad
PIT
O'Connor, Drew
$925,000 ($0)
LW
RFA - 2
PIT
Larmi, Emil
$792,500 ($0)
G
RFA - 1
PIT
Weber, Yannick
$700,000 ($0)
RD
UFA - 1
PIT
Currie, Josh
$700,000 ($0)
RW, C
UFA - 1

Embed Code

  • To display this team on another website or blog, add this iFrame to the appropriate page
  • Customize the height attribute in the iFrame code below to fit your website appropriately. Minimum recommended: 400px.

Text-Embed

Click to Highlight
Feb 28 at 1:31
#51
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,782
Likes: 2,395
Quoting: hockeyfanatic05
The utter hilarity is that leaf fans have nothing to brag about, but the pens do. Crosby is a upgrade over tavares. You can not deny that.


You should try reading my comments
Feb 28 at 2:39
#52
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 16,826
Likes: 4,227
Quoting: Byrr
Ok, if hes an NHL prospect, which team does he belong to? How is he affiliated to the NHL?

You've managed to put your foot in your mouth and invalidate your own argument. To find 25 NHL prospects arguably better than Robertson, a lot of these guys are further down on lists, you had to reach not one but two years into the future. If that isn't a fitting end to burying your argument, I don't know what is.


Funny every one looks at the guys in the 2021 draft as prospects but you. What team do they belong to? How are they affiliated with the NHL?


You just refuse to admit he's not a top 25 prospect. No matter what evidence is brought right up to you. It's you must be right. No way guys who are going to be drafted are prospects...pfft no, they have to be drafted to be prospects/
**** I guess Crosby was never really a prospect then, or Hughes, Or Stutzle, or Laf..............I could go on, how many guys went right from draft to playing right in the NHL as ROOKIES!
Clearly, they were never prospects.
Nope.
Matter of fact, wow there isn't even a word for a player like that before he's drafted....hmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why not. Maybe is there like already another word for that or like something?
I wonder what it could be.
Feb 28 at 2:44
#53
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 2,535
Likes: 1,195
Quoting: pharrow
Funny every one looks at the guys in the 2021 draft as prospects but you. What team do they belong to? How are they affiliated with the NHL?


No one considers them NHL prospects but you. Thats why they are ranked seperately from NHL prospects by literally every one, and thats not even an exaggeration, you won't find one ranking of non-drafted prospects with currently drafted prospects. You are the only one out in the weeds here trying to expand your options. No one agrees with you. You are out on an island screaming at the top of your lungs for someone to pay attention.

Quote:
You just refuse to admit he's not a top 25 prospect. No matter what evidence is brought right up to you. It's you must be right. No way guys who are going to be drafted are prospects...pfft no, they have to be drafted to be prospects.


See above. The only evidence you've tried to present is made up. You talk about how he wasn't on the world juniors despite being invited and passing. You talk about how he didn't make the Leafs despite him making the team out of camp and being injured. There's a pattern here and it shouldn't surprise you that its you don't know what you are talking about.
Feb 28 at 2:53
#54
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 16,826
Likes: 4,227
Quoting: BStinson
When did I say each and every pick/prospect is going to flourish into a star player (as you said be Crosby level)? I literally said the value difference between Crosby and Tavares. You don’t like Robertson and that’s fine it’s your opinion but what about the other two projects and picks? What don’t you like about Robertson other than his height? Your argument is logically flawed as you put words into others mouth and this isn’t the first time you’ve done this to me this week. You realize the high cost contracts need to be offset by ELCs to be cap compliant. We’re talking about 3 prospects and 2 first rounders in hopes that they can contribute on their ELCs and cost controlled years. Argue that premise and stop putting words into my mouth.


It's not simply about a difference between Tavares and Crosby though. Look TOR goes into the playoffs this year and loses are you still sitting here thinking there is some small difference between the two?
It's about winning a cup on one side, while taking one of the best players in the world from another team that is closing out their window and saying, here are some pieces enjoy plodding along in the middle of the pack.
You keep wanting to say ok what is it you don't like about the guy....well what exactly is it that makes you think he's such a valuable piece. He's done nothing. If he was 1/2 of what you want to assume he is, than why isn't he out there doing it? It's not like other guys aren't. No one is waiting for Stutzle to go play well, he is. Look at this thread, it's already preordained that he's a 40 goal scorer...like what? No he's not, not even close. He's never done any of that and his odds of doing that are very slim. So yeah there are 3 prospects, and 2 late 1st round picks. Not top 5 picks like bottom 8 picks at best.
While there is a cap issue while building a team, there is a very real possibility that none of these guys do anything to do that or if they do make an impact it's marginal at best. Point being, if that is what you are depending on to get you a cup, you are in trouble. You need the guys you already have to do that. So lets not pretend I put words into your mouth. It's not about "words" it's about the attitude and perspective you are making. You don't have to say it for it to be implicit, and that implicitness is an overvaluation of them. You got a 2nd round pick prospects there, and like every team, those guys get built up. But then there is the reality that each of them is a roughly 25% chance to be an NHL contributor of any value or worth. To give you an example you'd be familiar with, Donato. Oh he's great, next best thing, he's a stud....where the hell is he today? At some point be more honest about these guys. It will help you understand why GMs don't give them the same value you do. If all these guys were so great there would be tons of them on every team. But they aren't, they play small rolls, and a lot of them not even well. So realize that in your perspective. What is, is always much greater than what maybe they could be, especially when you are talking about mid 1st round and below. It's why guys get traded for 2-3 1st round picks. Because you have to hope you get some sort of anything out of them.
This is just the on ice portion of this discussion. Have you any idea the value economically of Crosby to a team. How much merchandise he sells , people he puts in seats etc...
And you think a few freaking prospects is an over payment. Name me one F person on that list of **** that came over who is going to do that on Crosby's level.

Here is a clue. It's not all about the leafs and the we want but don't want to give anything up attitude will never get you a player on Crosby's level. Like ever.
Tavares is ok, but there are some huge gaps here. The shoes are much bigger than Tavares will ever be able to fill.
Feb 28 at 2:54
#55
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 16,826
Likes: 4,227
Quoting: Byrr
No one considers them NHL prospects but you. Thats why they are ranked seperately from NHL prospects by literally every one, and thats not even an exaggeration, you won't find one ranking of non-drafted prospects with currently drafted prospects. You are the only one out in the weeds here trying to expand your options. No one agrees with you. You are out on an island screaming at the top of your lungs for someone to pay attention.

Quote:
You just refuse to admit he's not a top 25 prospect. No matter what evidence is brought right up to you. It's you must be right. No way guys who are going to be drafted are prospects...pfft no, they have to be drafted to be prospects.


See above. The only evidence you've tried to present is made up. You talk about how he wasn't on the world juniors despite being invited and passing. You talk about how he didn't make the Leafs despite him making the team out of camp and being injured. There's a pattern here and it shouldn't surprise you that its you don't know what you are talking about.


RIght....except the NHL
Top 31 prospects eligible for 2020 NHL Draft
https://www.nhl.com/news/2020-nhl-draft-top-prospects/c-316240380
Feb 28 at 2:59
#56
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 2,535
Likes: 1,195
Quoting: pharrow
RIght....except the NHL
Top 31 prospects eligible for 2020 NHL Draft
https://www.nhl.com/news/2020-nhl-draft-top-prospects/c-316240380


You realize you linked prospects for the 2020 draft right? None of those were drafted in 2019. It is a list of players solely available for the 2020 NHL draft. You literally proved my point. They are ranked separately from NHL prospects.
Feb 28 at 3:00
#57
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 16,826
Likes: 4,227
Quoting: Byrr
You realize you linked prospects for the 2020 draft right? None of those were drafted in 2019 nor eligible for drafts after 2020. You literally proved my point.


look clown
You do realize the NHL themselves called them prospects and they weren't drafted yet.

which is where we are done.
Feb 28 at 3:02
#58
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 2,535
Likes: 1,195
Edited Feb 28 at 3:08
Quoting: pharrow
look clown
You do realize the NHL themselves called them prospects and they weren't drafted yet.

which is where we are done.


Ya, its kind of done when you prove the other guys points for him. Even the NHL ranks draft prospects seperately from NHL prospects. Thank you. Should have saved yourself the time and stopped 20 posts ago.
Feb 28 at 3:25
#59
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3,262
Likes: 2,263
Quoting: pharrow
It's not simply about a difference between Tavares and Crosby though. Look TOR goes into the playoffs this year and loses are you still sitting here thinking there is some small difference between the two?
It's about winning a cup on one side, while taking one of the best players in the world from another team that is closing out their window and saying, here are some pieces enjoy plodding along in the middle of the pack.
You keep wanting to say ok what is it you don't like about the guy....well what exactly is it that makes you think he's such a valuable piece. He's done nothing. If he was 1/2 of what you want to assume he is, than why isn't he out there doing it? It's not like other guys aren't. No one is waiting for Stutzle to go play well, he is. Look at this thread, it's already preordained that he's a 40 goal scorer...like what? No he's not, not even close. He's never done any of that and his odds of doing that are very slim. So yeah there are 3 prospects, and 2 late 1st round picks. Not top 5 picks like bottom 8 picks at best.
While there is a cap issue while building a team, there is a very real possibility that none of these guys do anything to do that or if they do make an impact it's marginal at best. Point being, if that is what you are depending on to get you a cup, you are in trouble. You need the guys you already have to do that. So lets not pretend I put words into your mouth. It's not about "words" it's about the attitude and perspective you are making. You don't have to say it for it to be implicit, and that implicitness is an overvaluation of them. You got a 2nd round pick prospects there, and like every team, those guys get built up. But then there is the reality that each of them is a roughly 25% chance to be an NHL contributor of any value or worth. To give you an example you'd be familiar with, Donato. Oh he's great, next best thing, he's a stud....where the hell is he today? At some point be more honest about these guys. It will help you understand why GMs don't give them the same value you do. If all these guys were so great there would be tons of them on every team. But they aren't, they play small rolls, and a lot of them not even well. So realize that in your perspective. What is, is always much greater than what maybe they could be, especially when you are talking about mid 1st round and below. It's why guys get traded for 2-3 1st round picks. Because you have to hope you get some sort of anything out of them.
This is just the on ice portion of this discussion. Have you any idea the value economically of Crosby to a team. How much merchandise he sells , people he puts in seats etc...
And you think a few freaking prospects is an over payment. Name me one F person on that list of **** that came over who is going to do that on Crosby's level.

Here is a clue. It's not all about the leafs and the we want but don't want to give anything up attitude will never get you a player on Crosby's level. Like ever.
Tavares is ok, but there are some huge gaps here. The shoes are much bigger than Tavares will ever be able to fill.

I'll keep my responses in your order for simplicity.

So if they have Crosby instead of Tavares this year, they're guaranteed a cup? Why hasn't Edmonton won a cup with McDavid and Draisaitl? Might be because it's a team game.

So Tavares is what? Chopped liver?

I'm asking for a reason outside of height of why you don't like Robertson. He was a couple days (Sept 11 DOB) from the 2020 draft and put up 55 goals and 31 assists in 46 games in that D+1 season for the OHL. The list of individuals to accomplish that is rather impressive in the OHL. He hasn't looked out of place in the AHL this season (especially for a midget haha). He's looked good against his peers, has good skating, good low center of gravity which helps in puck control/protection, high IQ, and isn't a slouch on the forecheck. He isn't going to win a Selke but that's not his game nor did I ever say he's a shoe-in for 40 goals but rather questioned why you labeled him a 'B' prospect. How many 19 year olds are in the NHL currently? Now, how many of them are impact players like you say or maybe should be in a league like the AHL or SHL for development.

It's simple, you need contributing ELCs to offset the high costs of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, etc. I don't know how many times or different ways I can say that. I never said they need to be world beaters, so again stop putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about a third line guy on an ELC contributing like a fringe second liner or second liner. If they exceed that then even better.

Okay lets talk economics, for Toronto and Crosby. Do you know how much the naming rights to Toronto's arena goes for? Do you know who the top 3 or 5 gross revenue teams are in the NHL? If you do, now look at Edmonton with McDavid and think to yourself why the discrepancy.

Here's your answer to your clue. When did I say anything about being pro-Leafs? I'm a Wings fan and OP is a Sens fan. No one said Crosby < Tavares, so again your argument is extremely flawed. I asked for the delta/difference in value between the two which you still haven't answered.
Feb 28 at 4:00
#60
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 16,826
Likes: 4,227
Quoting: BStinson
I'll keep my responses in your order for simplicity.

So if they have Crosby instead of Tavares this year, they're guaranteed a cup? Why hasn't Edmonton won a cup with McDavid and Draisaitl? Might be because it's a team game.

So Tavares is what? Chopped liver?

I'm asking for a reason outside of height of why you don't like Robertson. He was a couple days (Sept 11 DOB) from the 2020 draft and put up 55 goals and 31 assists in 46 games in that D+1 season for the OHL. The list of individuals to accomplish that is rather impressive in the OHL. He hasn't looked out of place in the AHL this season (especially for a midget haha). He's looked good against his peers, has good skating, good low center of gravity which helps in puck control/protection, high IQ, and isn't a slouch on the forecheck. He isn't going to win a Selke but that's not his game nor did I ever say he's a shoe-in for 40 goals but rather questioned why you labeled him a 'B' prospect. How many 19 year olds are in the NHL currently? Now, how many of them are impact players like you say or maybe should be in a league like the AHL or SHL for development.

It's simple, you need contributing ELCs to offset the high costs of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, etc. I don't know how many times or different ways I can say that. I never said they need to be world beaters, so again stop putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about a third line guy on an ELC contributing like a fringe second liner or second liner. If they exceed that then even better.

Okay lets talk economics, for Toronto and Crosby. Do you know how much the naming rights to Toronto's arena goes for? Do you know who the top 3 or 5 gross revenue teams are in the NHL? If you do, now look at Edmonton with McDavid and think to yourself why the discrepancy.

Here's your answer to your clue. When did I say anything about being pro-Leafs? I'm a Wings fan and OP is a Sens fan. No one said Crosby < Tavares, so again your argument is extremely flawed. I asked for the delta/difference in value between the two which you still haven't answered.


the penguins were a team filing for bankruptcy and moving prior to Crosby getting there. I don't think you want to have the economic argument. You lost it before it ever began. It's huge and JT can't fill those footsteps.
One need not sit around justifying every 2nd round pick. I don't know how you don't get about that. You must be new to hockey or something. You can only see so many over hyped 2nd round picks till the response is put up or shut up. I don't want to here how a guy has been over hyped. I want to see results, on the ice. Other than that, he's just a name and there have been plenty before him and there will no doubt be plenty after him. There are plenty of guys from his draft class already on the ice. I think like 8 of them. There have been many other 19 year olds before those. If you want to claim a guy is this or that shouldn't he be on the ice with them? He was a flawed player from draft, which is why he went late 2ndround. Guys like that are not guys who "stick" but you'll have to figure that out. I'm sure you've seen enough Bracco posts to get it. Lot of similarities there. It's fine you can think he's worth whatever you think he's worth. Don't think we are all the eager. A lot of us have seen enough 2nd round flameouts with a name to know it's all bs.

While yes ELCc help with the cap, no one is denying that. The reality is, you are assuming those ELC actually come make an impact. I keep telling you that is a very flawed premise, it's why teams trade them for help now in playoff runs. You don't know what you are getting out of those guys. I don't think you realize the odds of them developing into the depth you are talking about. If you are just talking about replacement value guys you don't need to bring them in on ELC. There are plenty of guys who can be brought in on the cheap to do that. What you need is for them to turn into 20 goal difference makers types, the guys that cost a team 3 million+ to have on the roster to actually get value from them. What I am telling you is that is not as easy as it sounds and out of all of that, you might get 1. Is Crosby worth the difference of 1 20 goal scorer. Yes, he is. Even if you got 2 out of that he's still worth the difference.

It's clear you think JT is somehow close to the same level as Crosby. That's fine you can hold that belief. I will hold the one that he's not. Not even close.
Feb 28 at 7:21
#61
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3,262
Likes: 2,263
Quoting: pharrow
the penguins were a team filing for bankruptcy and moving prior to Crosby getting there. I don't think you want to have the economic argument. You lost it before it ever began. It's huge and JT can't fill those footsteps.
One need not sit around justifying every 2nd round pick. I don't know how you don't get about that. You must be new to hockey or something. You can only see so many over hyped 2nd round picks till the response is put up or shut up. I don't want to here how a guy has been over hyped. I want to see results, on the ice. Other than that, he's just a name and there have been plenty before him and there will no doubt be plenty after him. There are plenty of guys from his draft class already on the ice. I think like 8 of them. There have been many other 19 year olds before those. If you want to claim a guy is this or that shouldn't he be on the ice with them? He was a flawed player from draft, which is why he went late 2ndround. Guys like that are not guys who "stick" but you'll have to figure that out. I'm sure you've seen enough Bracco posts to get it. Lot of similarities there. It's fine you can think he's worth whatever you think he's worth. Don't think we are all the eager. A lot of us have seen enough 2nd round flameouts with a name to know it's all bs.

While yes ELCc help with the cap, no one is denying that. The reality is, you are assuming those ELC actually come make an impact. I keep telling you that is a very flawed premise, it's why teams trade them for help now in playoff runs. You don't know what you are getting out of those guys. I don't think you realize the odds of them developing into the depth you are talking about. If you are just talking about replacement value guys you don't need to bring them in on ELC. There are plenty of guys who can be brought in on the cheap to do that. What you need is for them to turn into 20 goal difference makers types, the guys that cost a team 3 million+ to have on the roster to actually get value from them. What I am telling you is that is not as easy as it sounds and out of all of that, you might get 1. Is Crosby worth the difference of 1 20 goal scorer. Yes, he is. Even if you got 2 out of that he's still worth the difference.

It's clear you think JT is somehow close to the same level as Crosby. That's fine you can hold that belief. I will hold the one that he's not. Not even close.

The Penguins have filed for bankruptcy twice (1975 & 1998), Super Mario saved them with deferred salary in the form of equity. Their attendance was around 11k vs 15k with Crosby (2007+ but you also have to factor Geno) but you also have to remember that a hard salary cap wasn't enforced during those financial hardships. You also have to remember you're talking a small market team vs. a large market team that even with extremely front loaded contracts (eg. Matthews, Marner, JT, Nylander), Cash > AAV, they still profited 50M+ in a shorted season (19-20). He will help in jersey sales, I'll give him that.

I'm new to hockey because I watch junior in addition to NHL? When did I hype anyone up, again words in my mouth. You do understand players take different development paths? Some FO like to ripen their prospects more than others. The youngest kid in the draft isn't playing routine top 6 minutes in the NHL in their D+2 season, isn't a concern when their playing solid in the AHL. You haven't said any concerns of his except height and draft position and I keep asking. Have you seen him play or not?

I never once said impact but rather contribute to the on ice product at a significant discount above replacement level. I'm fully aware of the odds of each occurring there are articles specifically catering to this, I personally prefer the Dobber one. I'm stating the value difference between 2 A prospects, 2 firsts, and 2 B prospects seems a little heavy for the difference between JT & Crosby without considering NTCs/NMCs.
Mar 1 at 12:20
#62
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 16,826
Likes: 4,227
Quoting: BStinson
The Penguins have filed for bankruptcy twice (1975 & 1998), Super Mario saved them with deferred salary in the form of equity. Their attendance was around 11k vs 15k with Crosby (2007+ but you also have to factor Geno) but you also have to remember that a hard salary cap wasn't enforced during those financial hardships. You also have to remember you're talking a small market team vs. a large market team that even with extremely front loaded contracts (eg. Matthews, Marner, JT, Nylander), Cash > AAV, they still profited 50M+ in a shorted season (19-20). He will help in jersey sales, I'll give him that.

I'm new to hockey because I watch junior in addition to NHL? When did I hype anyone up, again words in my mouth. You do understand players take different development paths? Some FO like to ripen their prospects more than others. The youngest kid in the draft isn't playing routine top 6 minutes in the NHL in their D+2 season, isn't a concern when their playing solid in the AHL. You haven't said any concerns of his except height and draft position and I keep asking. Have you seen him play or not?

I never once said impact but rather contribute to the on ice product at a significant discount above replacement level. I'm fully aware of the odds of each occurring there are articles specifically catering to this, I personally prefer the Dobber one. I'm stating the value difference between 2 A prospects, 2 firsts, and 2 B prospects seems a little heavy for the difference between JT & Crosby without considering NTCs/NMCs.


you are rambling here and making no sense what so ever.
small market team vs. a large market team.... no one is talking about TOR finances. When crosby is gone, PIT income will probably return to looking like CBJ.. either in the red or barely above it. JT isn't preventing that from happening.
**** has nothing to do with TOR. You move Crosby you kill their income for the next few years, and that's a major hit. If you think that is worth a hand full of 50/50 prospects and a few 1/4 prospects good luck to you. Something tells me the people actually on the hook for the money don't agree.

Watching Juniors has nothing to do with anything I said. I watch juniors and NCAA too and a lot of Euro hockey as it's my home. But that has 0 to do with 2nd round over hype of guys that never pan out.
Like all of them got their hype from their previous levels of hockey. Playing good there isn't necessarily a predictor to being an NHL player. Again, a guy you should be familiar with, Donato...killed it in NCAA and he was older, an even better sign. I mean 26 goals in 29 games is great production at NCAA level. Didn't mean **** for him turning into a good NHL player. You just don't seem to get that. There is a reason 2nd round picks have a 25% chance to even make 300 NHL games. It doesn't even mean they made a real impact, just that they played 300 games. Yes I have seen him play. That means nothing.
There is such a huge jump to the NHL that previous play at junior levels means little to nothing. You can only get a feel for a guy. It's very rare you can look at a guy at those levels and say, yes right there. Like Stutzle was pretty evident. But that had to do with things that set him apart that are very rare. Speed, acceleration. You can't hide those or fake them and they translate with on issues. Nick doesn't have those things. That doesn't mean he's slow, but he's not Stutzle fast. He doesn't stick out. When you see Stutzle play in the minors the speed was at unreal level, you knew he was fast enough to play at the NHL level. Guys picked in the 2nd round don't stand out like that, and you can't "grow in to it." You aren't magically gaining that kind of speed. You are either born with it or you are not. There is no part of Nick's game that one says, he was born with that. He's a hyped up name. Could he develop, sure all guys can develop into an NHL player. But facts are he odds of doing it are low, and the odds he's any kind of impact player are lower than that. But you believe what you want. Sure, juniors is some great predictor or guys who didn't really stick out there.

Who cares what Dobber says. Dobber is wrong frequently. Matter of fact more wrong than right. They make money hyping players.

As I said, you think the difference between JT and Crosby is close. I don't. Crosby can carry a total bum like Simon on his back and make him look really good. JT could never do that.
There is a night and day difference between them. That difference plus the impact it has on the penguins financially is worth that asking price. 2 late firsts is nothing. 2 2nd round prospects also doesn't hold all that much weight. The first round prospects are decent but they are still 50/50 chance to ever be a 300 game player be it 1st or 4th line.

anyway, I'm bored with this circular discussion. You have made no real point of any value to counter these guys actual draft odds of being an NHL player. Mainly because there isn't one to make. It is what it is.
You got a guy with a name you're obsessed with. Who has played 1 NHL game. That's a lot of hype for a guy who's played 1 NHL game.
Mar 1 at 1:35
#63
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3,262
Likes: 2,263
Quoting: pharrow
you are rambling here and making no sense what so ever.
small market team vs. a large market team.... no one is talking about TOR finances. When crosby is gone, PIT income will probably return to looking like CBJ.. either in the red or barely above it. JT isn't preventing that from happening.
**** has nothing to do with TOR. You move Crosby you kill their income for the next few years, and that's a major hit. If you think that is worth a hand full of 50/50 prospects and a few 1/4 prospects good luck to you. Something tells me the people actually on the hook for the money don't agree.

Watching Juniors has nothing to do with anything I said. I watch juniors and NCAA too and a lot of Euro hockey as it's my home. But that has 0 to do with 2nd round over hype of guys that never pan out.
Like all of them got their hype from their previous levels of hockey. Playing good there isn't necessarily a predictor to being an NHL player. Again, a guy you should be familiar with, Donato...killed it in NCAA and he was older, an even better sign. I mean 26 goals in 29 games is great production at NCAA level. Didn't mean **** for him turning into a good NHL player. You just don't seem to get that. There is a reason 2nd round picks have a 25% chance to even make 300 NHL games. It doesn't even mean they made a real impact, just that they played 300 games. Yes I have seen him play. That means nothing.
There is such a huge jump to the NHL that previous play at junior levels means little to nothing. You can only get a feel for a guy. It's very rare you can look at a guy at those levels and say, yes right there. Like Stutzle was pretty evident. But that had to do with things that set him apart that are very rare. Speed, acceleration. You can't hide those or fake them and they translate with on issues. Nick doesn't have those things. That doesn't mean he's slow, but he's not Stutzle fast. He doesn't stick out. When you see Stutzle play in the minors the speed was at unreal level, you knew he was fast enough to play at the NHL level. Guys picked in the 2nd round don't stand out like that, and you can't "grow in to it." You aren't magically gaining that kind of speed. You are either born with it or you are not. There is no part of Nick's game that one says, he was born with that. He's a hyped up name. Could he develop, sure all guys can develop into an NHL player. But facts are he odds of doing it are low, and the odds he's any kind of impact player are lower than that. But you believe what you want. Sure, juniors is some great predictor or guys who didn't really stick out there.

Who cares what Dobber says. Dobber is wrong frequently. Matter of fact more wrong than right. They make money hyping players.

As I said, you think the difference between JT and Crosby is close. I don't. Crosby can carry a total bum like Simon on his back and make him look really good. JT could never do that.
There is a night and day difference between them. That difference plus the impact it has on the penguins financially is worth that asking price. 2 late firsts is nothing. 2 2nd round prospects also doesn't hold all that much weight. The first round prospects are decent but they are still 50/50 chance to ever be a 300 game player be it 1st or 4th line.

anyway, I'm bored with this circular discussion. You have made no real point of any value to counter these guys actual draft odds of being an NHL player. Mainly because there isn't one to make. It is what it is.
You got a guy with a name you're obsessed with. Who has played 1 NHL game. That's a lot of hype for a guy who's played 1 NHL game.

Your first paragraph is about economics and I covered that but with some finance. The only thing I didn’t spell out for you was PV > FV. So why would a team pay extra for something when it only benefits a small market? Which is why Super Mario tried to sell the Penguins in 2015/2016? Could it be that he knew Crosby and Geno would eventually start to decline leaving their revenues to drop? It’s also why I gave you context for your paragraph and the little bit I did leave out wasn’t a potential bankruptcy for Pittsburgh but a possible relocation threat to KC IIRC.

Donato’s season you mentioned was his what D+4 or 5 season. Seems a bit wild to compare someone’s D+1 season to a D+4-5 and that’s not even factoring Robertson was like 2 days from the 2020 draft. You do realize skating can be improved? Especially if the player isn’t developed physically or has a funky stride but more so if they’re not developed physically. Skating also isn’t everything look at Athansiou. When selecting a prospect you’re projecting what they will be in 5+ years. I’m finally getting something other than height and he was a second round draft pick from you as a negative.

I mentioned Dobber as their article drives into descriptive analytics regarding success chance (based on GP) for a specific draft slot. So has nothing to do with prospect profiles like you mention and isn’t wrong as it’s an output from a data set.

Here’s that article.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/dobberprospects.com/2020/05/16/nhl-draft-pick-probabilities/amp/

I think the only thing we agree on is Crosby > Tavares.

I hope this circular discussion was educational for you and that you actually go back and read my posts if you don’t think I have made any “real points” versus your speculation.
Mar 1 at 12:44
#64
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 16,826
Likes: 4,227
Quoting: BStinson
Your first paragraph is about economics and I covered that but with some finance. The only thing I didn’t spell out for you was PV > FV. So why would a team pay extra for something when it only benefits a small market? Which is why Super Mario tried to sell the Penguins in 2015/2016? Could it be that he knew Crosby and Geno would eventually start to decline leaving their revenues to drop? It’s also why I gave you context for your paragraph and the little bit I did leave out wasn’t a potential bankruptcy for Pittsburgh but a possible relocation threat to KC IIRC.

Donato’s season you mentioned was his what D+4 or 5 season. Seems a bit wild to compare someone’s D+1 season to a D+4-5 and that’s not even factoring Robertson was like 2 days from the 2020 draft. You do realize skating can be improved? Especially if the player isn’t developed physically or has a funky stride but more so if they’re not developed physically. Skating also isn’t everything look at Athansiou. When selecting a prospect you’re projecting what they will be in 5+ years. I’m finally getting something other than height and he was a second round draft pick from you as a negative.

I mentioned Dobber as their article drives into descriptive analytics regarding success chance (based on GP) for a specific draft slot. So has nothing to do with prospect profiles like you mention and isn’t wrong as it’s an output from a data set.

Here’s that article.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/dobberprospects.com/2020/05/16/nhl-draft-pick-probabilities/amp/

I think the only thing we agree on is Crosby > Tavares.

I hope this circular discussion was educational for you and that you actually go back and read my posts if you don’t think I have made any “real points” versus your speculation.


again you are rambling.
It's not about TOR finances. It has jack to do with TOR. You are asking a team to give up the guy who makes it profitable. You are going to pay for that. Don't you get that?
They don't care how it effects TOR. The fact that you are saying things like " So why would a team pay extra for something when it only benefits a small market? " shows you are clue less to the point.
Read what people type not what you want to say.

The same is true with the point on Donato. You clearly did not get the point.

We are done here.
Mar 1 at 1:00
#65
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3,262
Likes: 2,263
Quoting: pharrow
again you are rambling.
It's not about TOR finances. It has jack to do with TOR. You are asking a team to give up the guy who makes it profitable. You are going to pay for that. Don't you get that?
They don't care how it effects TOR. The fact that you are saying things like " So why would a team pay extra for something when it only benefits a small market? " shows you are clue less to the point.
Read what people type not what you want to say.

The same is true with the point on Donato. You clearly did not get the point.

We are done here.

Got it, logic and facts = rambling.

Toronto has no incentive to trade for someone that keeps another franchise more profitable. They already have profit sharing league wide to aid small market teams.

"Read what people type not what you want to say." What? Doesn't make sense.

"The same is true with the point on Donato. You clearly did not get the point." The point you're saying is that production comparison for D+1 vs D+5 is acceptable and that development curves don't exist.

"We are done here." Yes, we are.
 
Reply
To create a post please Login or Register
Question:
Options:
Add Option
Remove Option
Submit Poll