2023 picks are too far away for Nashville to see any help to make a rebuild shorter.

That offer would put David Poile over the edge.

Ekholm easily returns a 1st++ without retention.

yes and in this offer is multiple 2nds and 2 first round prospects, 2 of the top 4 prospects for the leafs. i think its a bit of an overpayment.

Liljegren has been around long enough to have lost his former 1st rounder prospect tag. And you blatantly ignored the value of retention. This is an underpayment

I wouldn’t do it. Lilly looks awesome. Can’t see the leafs developing him this well to trade for an lhd we just don’t need.

Did the trade change?

I am seeing a 2nd and 3rd round pick (and neither for this summer), plus Abramov who was a 4th round pick and Liljegren who despite being a massive draft steal and getting the most massive advantages according to all the Leafs fans I talk to (with him from day 1 being with the Marlies and under direct control of by far the greatest development program in the history of the universe), and despite the Leafs' having a terrible D right side from 2017 - 2020, has played the third fewest NHL games among the 31 first round picks from 2017 (only ahead of #31 OA Kostin and #28 OA Bowers who went the college route).

Even if there was no retention, I would turn this down if I was Nashville. With retention I wouldn't even consider it.

He doesn't have the same value he once did, but that doesn't mean he's worthless. Him along with a 3rd is probably equal to the leafs first. In reality, Ekholm would probably fetch a first and a second round pick. Abramov doesn't have 1st round prospect status though, and he never did. I think if it's just Ekholm 50% retained (no 5th) for Liljgren, a 2021 2nd, a 2022 3rd and Abramov it's fair.

Please stop with this "the leafs suck at developing their prospects" nonsense. He hasn't played because the leafs are a contending team and have good defense depth, leaving no room for Liljgren. He's going to be in the bottom 6 next year when Dermott and Bogosian or Lehtonen are gone.

What do you mean he doesnt have the same value he once did? Despite Nashville's awful seadon he is playing excellent.
In reality Ekholm fetches the exact same package as Muzzin and even more with retention

No I meant Lili doesn't have the value he once did. Yes, he probably fetches a similar package to Muzzin, which this is.

You are free to continue your cult-like beliefs about the Leafs' developing program - but no one outside of that cult will believe it.

The Leafs spent the previous three years with perhaps the worst right side in the league and had no interest in giving a Lilly a shot. Then, despite having two NHL-ready D in the AHL the team had so little faith in their ability to bring either into the lineup that they went out and signed 3 free agent Ds (Brodie, Bogo and Lehtonen) and openly spoke about how they were not even giving either Lilly or Sandin the opportunity to compete for a spot during camp. The team chose to do that - and they chose to do that because they completely suck at developing D prospects and instead rely on every other team to do so for them. And being a contender is no excuse for not developing your prospects. All good contenders do both. The Leafs' don't.

This is a team that is so terrible at development that they have managed to turn Dermott from one of the best 3rd pairing Ds in the league 3 years ago - a D who provided plenty of offense, while also being strong defensively, and someone who all Leafs' fans felt would be a strong top-4 quickly - to a shadow of himself today, playing 12 minutes a game with zero dynamism to his game.

I'm rooting for Travis Dermott to be the Shea Theodore of the Seattle Kraken.

And you must know how much I hate to be reminded of that.

So what you are saying is you'd rather have Sandin and Lili instead of Muzzin and Brodie, and you want Dermott in the top 4 and Holl on the top pairing?
Dermott could be on the top 4, but if you want to be a contending team it's good to have depth and a good top 4. Dermott is probably going to Seattle, which is too bad, but someone has to go to Seattle, so it's fine. Justin Holl, as good as he is, is not a top pairing defensemen. He's a good 2nd pairing guy, but not top pair.

And Sandin and Liligren are good bottom pairing guys, but Toronto got Bogosian because they wanted an even better bottom pairing. This is about having an above average defense core and not an average one. The leafs wanted a d core fit for an elite team. Sandin and Lili are not nhl ready on an elite team at 21 and 22, and why did they need to be? They have plently of years ahead of them. They will likely turn into the defensemen everyone thought they would be. You are way too impatient.

Muzzin got a 1st and 2 decent prospects, here is a 2nd a 3rd and 2 decent prospects

Abramov=Grunstrom, but Lili>Durzi.

Mid-late 1st > late 2nd and late 3rd, retention > no retention.

Fair. I think Nashville might consider this, but Sandin straight up is probably what a Ekholm to Toronto looks like.

If Dermott gets away from Toronto soon enough he could probably develop into a top-4 D. But because Dermott is already 24 and the Leafs' have spent more than 3 years training him to be nothing more than an extremely sheltered third pairing D, it will be hard for him to break out of that. I like him though, and I think that most teams would take a chance on him.

However, Theodore was 21 and ran into the problem in Anaheim of a young Lindholm and Fowler ahead of him. He was also exempt from the expansion draft and Anaheim traded him to expansion draft considerations. So the similar trade would be 21-year-old blocked on the left side Sandin going to Seattle for expansion considerations. But that won't happen - and Sandin's career will suffer from the lack of opportunities and being on a team that has no interest in properly developing him.

What I am saying is that I want the team to actually properly develop D. Something they have never done and continue to do poorly. It has nothing to do with wanting players in positions they are not ready for. It is about getting players ready for positions. Starting 3 years ago Leafs fans raved about how Dermott was going to be this great top-4 D and how Toronto was doing this amazing job developing him. Throughout that same time they threw temper tantrums every time I said the truth - which is that with the exception of his rookie season the Leafs have done an absolutely dreadful job of developing him and that he would not develop into a top-4 D until they started doing the right things (getting him an appropriate mentor partner, challenging him up the lineup when times are calm, getting him special teams time) which they never did. Instead they left him as the most sheltered third pairing D in the NHL, without a proper mentor, and then when a bunch of injuries hit they would throw him, completely unprepared, up the lineup in a hectic situation where he was guaranteed to fail. Properly developed Dermott might have been the top-4 RD the team had been looking for. The kind of D scouts thought he coudl become - but hasn't and won't in Toronto. Maybe they wouldn't have needed to sign someone like Brodie for a 5M cap hit until he is 34.

The same thing - but even worse has happened with Sandin and Liljegren. Back in 2015 Dubas outlined his philosophy of development. He has done - with Sandin and Liljegren - exactly what he said he would never do because it was too harmful, and has not done the things he said the team would do. Both of them have essentially maxed out their development in the AHL. While getting ice time is better than getting none, Liljegren will essentially not develop further in the AHL. He needs to either take the next step or not. In order to successfully do so the team needs to make a spot for him the NHL in a way where he most likely be successful. The Leafs not only will not make a spot, but when he has played games in the NHL it was with the most inappropriate partner he could have possibly played with. Guaranteed to fail. No surprise with the Leafs. Sandin, will not only probably not develop any further in the AHL, but as a player whose main asset is his IQ, playing with and against lower IQ players (as the AHL is at a lower level of competition this year than it has been in the past) will probably make his transition to the NHL less likely to succeed. When they did play him in the NHL they mainly played him with completely inappropriate partners.

It was an is unlikely that the Leafs will bring both of them into the lineup full-time the same season. What they should have done was brought Sandin into the NHL full-time last year with an appropriate partner and then Liljegren into the NHL this year with an appropriate partner. As they didn't do that, bringing Sandin into the NHL full-time this year with an appropriate partner and then Liljegren next year with an appropriate partner would have still been better than what they have done.

There is little chance now that they will them both into the NHL next year full-time (the team will be even more in "win-now" mode then after all). Their careers and potential and being wasted away by an irresponsible team.



Either properly develop players or trade them while they still have value. Lots of teams choose to trade and sign players instead of developing. If the Leafs' want to go that route, I completely support them in doing so, but when you do that, you trade your prospects when their value is high. Sandin and Liljegren are not young - people who think that simply have no idea what the development curve is for first round draft pick Ds who don't go to college - and these are players who have been playing pro years - not stuck in the lower comp junior leagues when they were 18/19. Furthermore the team knows that their development in the A is essentially maxed out - which is why Liljegren was on the taxi squad for the last 10+ days instead of "developing" in the A. This had been confirmed earlier when the media asked Sandin what the team wanted him to work on developing in the AHL on the day he was sent down, and Sandin said they just want me to get lots of ice time. You can be sure that Sandin and Liljegren are running out of patience. And they should be. It is their careers and long-term future that the Leafs are ignoring.

The comparison was not meant to extend beyond the similarity between Anaheim letting Theodore go to an expansion team and then turn out much better than common "wisdom" predicted and Travis Dermott going to an expansion team and then turning out better than common "wisdom" expects. I did not intend to imply a blueprint, one-for-one congruity.

What do you have against the ahl? And why do you not like the additions of Brodie and Bogosian? Why do you insist they should play them when they are trying to make the best roster possible? There is no need to rush these guys. Next year when Dermott is gone, and maybe Bogo too, chances are they both make up the bottom pairing for the leafs.