Edited Mar. 12, 2021 at 6:44 p.m.
Quoting: Saskleaf
So what you are saying is you'd rather have Sandin and Lili instead of Muzzin and Brodie, and you want Dermott in the top 4 and Holl on the top pairing?
Dermott could be on the top 4, but if you want to be a contending team it's good to have depth and a good top 4. Dermott is probably going to Seattle, which is too bad, but someone has to go to Seattle, so it's fine. Justin Holl, as good as he is, is not a top pairing defensemen. He's a good 2nd pairing guy, but not top pair.
What I am saying is that I want the team to actually properly develop D. Something they have never done and continue to do poorly. It has nothing to do with wanting players in positions they are not ready for. It is about getting players ready for positions. Starting 3 years ago Leafs fans raved about how Dermott was going to be this great top-4 D and how Toronto was doing this amazing job developing him. Throughout that same time they threw temper tantrums every time I said the truth - which is that with the exception of his rookie season the Leafs have done an absolutely dreadful job of developing him and that he would not develop into a top-4 D until they started doing the right things (getting him an appropriate mentor partner, challenging him up the lineup when times are calm, getting him special teams time) which they never did. Instead they left him as the most sheltered third pairing D in the NHL, without a proper mentor, and then when a bunch of injuries hit they would throw him, completely unprepared, up the lineup in a hectic situation where he was guaranteed to fail. Properly developed Dermott might have been the top-4 RD the team had been looking for. The kind of D scouts thought he coudl become - but hasn't and won't in Toronto. Maybe they wouldn't have needed to sign someone like Brodie for a 5M cap hit until he is 34.
The same thing - but even worse has happened with Sandin and Liljegren. Back in 2015 Dubas outlined his philosophy of development. He has done - with Sandin and Liljegren - exactly what he said he would never do because it was too harmful, and has not done the things he said the team would do. Both of them have essentially maxed out their development in the AHL. While getting ice time is better than getting none, Liljegren will essentially not develop further in the AHL. He needs to either take the next step or not. In order to successfully do so the team needs to make a spot for him the NHL in a way where he most likely be successful. The Leafs not only will not make a spot, but when he has played games in the NHL it was with the most inappropriate partner he could have possibly played with. Guaranteed to fail. No surprise with the Leafs. Sandin, will not only probably not develop any further in the AHL, but as a player whose main asset is his IQ, playing with and against lower IQ players (as the AHL is at a lower level of competition this year than it has been in the past) will probably make his transition to the NHL less likely to succeed. When they did play him in the NHL they mainly played him with completely inappropriate partners.
It was an is unlikely that the Leafs will bring both of them into the lineup full-time the same season. What they should have done was brought Sandin into the NHL full-time last year with an appropriate partner and then Liljegren into the NHL this year with an appropriate partner. As they didn't do that, bringing Sandin into the NHL full-time this year with an appropriate partner and then Liljegren next year with an appropriate partner would have still been better than what they have done.
There is little chance now that they will them both into the NHL next year full-time (the team will be even more in "win-now" mode then after all). Their careers and potential and being wasted away by an irresponsible team.
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And Sandin and Liligren are good bottom pairing guys, but Toronto got Bogosian because they wanted an even better bottom pairing. This is about having an above average defense core and not an average one. The leafs wanted a d core fit for an elite team. Sandin and Lili are not nhl ready on an elite team at 21 and 22, and why did they need to be? They have plently of years ahead of them. They will likely turn into the defensemen everyone thought they would be. You are way too impatient.
Either properly develop players or trade them while they still have value. Lots of teams choose to trade and sign players instead of developing. If the Leafs' want to go that route, I completely support them in doing so, but when you do that, you trade your prospects when their value is high. Sandin and Liljegren are not young - people who think that simply have no idea what the development curve is for first round draft pick Ds who don't go to college - and these are players who have been playing pro years - not stuck in the lower comp junior leagues when they were 18/19. Furthermore the team knows that their development in the A is essentially maxed out - which is why Liljegren was on the taxi squad for the last 10+ days instead of "developing" in the A. This had been confirmed earlier when the media asked Sandin what the team wanted him to work on developing in the AHL on the day he was sent down, and Sandin said they just want me to get lots of ice time. You can be sure that Sandin and Liljegren are running out of patience. And they should be. It is their careers and long-term future that the Leafs are ignoring.