TIL that teams shouldn't have more than one defenseman capable of contributing offensively.

I never said that. He said Ellis has a lot of hockey left if he could stay healthy. Like I said, the pens already have a guy like that

Hey, you did the same thing with what I said earlier so it's only fair that I intentionally misunderstand you too.

But also, the Penguins having another good defenseman is a silly reason not to have another good defenseman (who is currently younger and better).

But teams really don't like to acquire assets for the purpose of moving them again later. I think Ellis and Ekholm get them a first and a quality young player/blue chip prospect. They are overburdened with some bad contracts right now so acquiring additional contracts is definitely something they are not looking to do.

under this logic, Quinn Hughes has taken a huge step back, we should get him for Riikola and Sceviour

no way in hell the penguins do this.

Why the hell would we trade Marino for something that isn’t a massive overpay? Especially with the expansion draft coming up? That’s legit insane. This talk that Marino has regressed is dumb too. Sure his offensive stats aren’t the same as last year, but he has been paired with Matheson most of the season. His stats when he was on his natural side with Ceci or with MP suggest he is playing just as well, if not better than last year. Just not getting the points. Matheson has been decent, however Marino doesn’t fit with him and it has affected his play. It looks as though they are putting MP and Marino back together. It’s stupid for the pens to trade Marino or Zucker as diminished goods. Even if you want to say he is having a bad year...it’s only his second year ffs. A lot of players go through sophomore slumps. Just terrible asset management to trade players you’ve just gotten for a low ROI.

Terrible asset management is handing Marino a long-term deal after watching him play 58 games.

This is Marino last year on the left and Marino this year on the right.



His defensive impact has evaporated and he is constantly getting beaten in his own zone, regardless of his D partner. There is a reason that the team has now demoted him to the bottom pairing.

Yes, Matheson and Marino played terribly together. John Marino without Mike Matheson is still a sub 50% xGf player this season. He has regressed.

Ryan Ellis is an elite player. John Marino is not.

you say it's a bad call to judge a guy after 58 games...but then want to judge a guy on the next 28 and toss him out like spare parts?
That don't even make no sense.

this is embarrassing. you dont trade potential first pairing guys just because of a a sophomore slump.

That’s absolutely not true. He has only been bad when paired with Matheson. Those graphs don’t prove that he has been bad regardless of pair. They look bad because he has spent significantly more time paired with Matheson than anyone else.
John Marino 5 v 5 2019-2020 stats paired mostly with MP:
CA/60 - 50.3
CF% - 50.1
SA/60 - 27.3
GA/60 - 2.2
GF% - 56.4
xGF/60 - 2.16
xGA/60 - 1.8
xGF% - 54.4
SCA/60 - 22.99
HDCA/60 - 8.39
Compare that with this year...with MP
42.08 ✅
50.6 ✅
24.12 ✅
2.57 ❎
54.55 ❎
2.03 ❎
1.79 ✅
53.14 ❎
21.04 ✅
11.29 ❎
With ceci
46.17 ✅
50.88 ✅
28.03 ❎
2.47 ❎
57.14 ✅
2.17 ✅
2.12 ❎
50.52 ❎
23.91 ❎
8.25 ✅
With Matheson
56.44 ❎
47.16 ❎
33.23 ❎
3.43 ❎
45.83 ❎
1.81 ❎
2.58 ❎
41.2 ❎
26.11 ❎
12.66 ❎

What this says is that compared to last year he is pretty even with last year when paired with either Ceci or MP. Most stats are slightly better or slightly worse. When paired with Matheson, his stats are SIGNIFICANTLY worse.
As for Ellis. Sure he is elite...when he is on the ice. However including this year, that makes 3 of the past 4 years where he has had a significant injury. What good is being elite if you can’t stay on the ice? I mean he fits in that way but we have enough players made of glass. I’d rather keep the more durable and younger Marino who is capable of being good and the potential to grow into better. Plus management says they want to build for now AND the future so Ellis wouldn’t fit that idea. Especially not Ellis for Marino, Zucker, and a 2nd.

FYI, doing what you are doing with the green emojis is basically unreadable. I can't tell what is going on

What I posted is isolated his impact on the ice. It's giving you an estimate of his impact. But if you want to go straight off of on-ice results, here;


Per Natural stat trick, both Marino and Matheson have had better on-ice results away from each other. However, Marino without Matheson is still a below 50% xGF player. Matheson, on the other hand, looks fantastic without Marino.



Marino has 58 games of being good. That's too small of a sample size for Pens fans to act like he's Bobby Orr or for Jim Rutherford to give him that giant contract. He hasn't been nearly as good this year, even if you exclude his minutes with Matheson (which are also Marino's fault). I really hate homer nonsense like this. It's embarrassing.

Pretty weird to just give up on Marino for a really normal and predictable sophomore slump

I mean it’s not exactly rocket science. Think it is silly to pretend you can’t read just because you don’t like the facts lol. And the stats you share even prove my point. Marino is SIGNIFICANTLY better away from Matheson and has been bogged down being paired with Matheson. Not saying it’s matheson’s fault. Some guys just don’t play well together. No one is claiming Marino to be the next Bobby Orr. But you are saying in one breath that it was dumb to judge a player based on a small sample size of 58 games and give him his contract. We are saying that it’s even dumber to use a 28 game sample size to judge the same player the other way and just give up on him altogether. Especially for a player that is oft-injured. It’s not homerism to believe you’re overreacting over a 28 game sample size of a sophomore season without training camp. What’s embarrassing is this fanbases NEED for a whipping boy every year. Now that the usual ones (Maatta, Murray, and JJ) are gone, gotta find new ones. Guess it’s gonna be MP and Marino. It’s simple....It’s terrible asset management to make decisions based on small sample sizes. You don’t trade assets as diminished goods because he has been paired with another guy he doesn’t play well with and Vice versa. That’s just dumb.

Look buddy, I've said several times now that both Matheson and Marino are better away from each other. There isn't an argument there. Stop it.

The point is that even without Matheson, Marino has not been impressive. You guys honestly talk like he's bobby Orr. It's weird.

"whipping boy" isn't the same thing as preferring to trade him for an objectively better player.

Yeah, giving up on him is the same thing as trading him for an objectively better player. Cool.

Are you going to get mad at me for being sarcastic again?

No, I see now in this thread that you have some issues communicating appropriately and it’s not my place to help you fix your issues. I don’t have that sort of qualification

Weird that only the Pens homers who think John Marino is the next Nick Lidstrom seem to have an issue with the reasoning here. But sure, it's me that's being unreasonable by pointing out that the guy isn't nearly good enough for you to value over one of the best at the position. Go back to getting mad at me for telling you the fourth liners you like aren't good. That was more fun.

he was LITERALLY the best defensive player in the league last season by some metrics.
i just have no idea why you'd be interested in moving a guy like him in his second season.

You’re the one arguing lol. Marino away from Matheson has been just as good, if not better than last year. He’s just spent most of the season with Matheson. Your stats, my stats, and tonight’s game prove that lol. Your post had like 15 stats and because 1 wasn’t better than last year you talk like he is a cap dump lol. Again, no one here thinks he is the next Bobby Orr, Nick lidstrom, drew doughty, or any other elite to franchise defenseman. The pens aren’t trading him, period unless it’s a massive overpay and Ellis ain’t it. Ellis isn’t good enough to justify trading a young quality dman that is on a less expensive contract plus a youngish top 6 forward that isn’t on a bad contract for him. I don’t care how good he is, no team would be that stupid to do that trade. We don’t have GMJR or Chiarelli. GMRH has said he wants to trade for pieces that help now and the future. So trading for an oft-injured defenseman that has a higher cap hit isn’t something a cap strapped team should do.

"He’s just spent most of the season with Matheson"

What is wrong with you? I literally gave you his numbers w/Matheson and without him. He has more minutes without him.

From an xGF% (most important on ice underlying number), he is not as good as he was last year and is a below 50% player. Why are you ignoring this?

From a isolated impact perspective (which I posted earlier), he was much better last year.

You can make your argument without making things up.

Because he has not been nearly as good this year (mediocre defensively by the same metrics) and Ellis has a much better all around game.

When Marino is with MP his xGF% 53.14 and with Ceci 50.52 5 v 5. You can make your argument because you need a whipping boy and Marino is it without making things up. 🤷‍♂️

Yet sits in the press box injured half the season. Your argument is terrible. Just stop lol

That applies to most of the Penguins star players too. The point is to get the best possible players for a chance at a cup.

I literally gave you the number for Marino without Matheson. I'm sorry you can't read a table.