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Created by: Coleharborcrosby
Team: 2020-21 Pittsburgh Penguins
Initial Creation Date: Apr. 7, 2021
Published: Apr. 7, 2021
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Not happy with Hextall`s comments today. They seem to be miraged by the Pens recent hot streak. This team has a legit shot at the Cup with the right moves. They also have an issue with picks/prospects and the salary cap. All of the above can be fixed only ONE way.

Trading a good, young top 4 dman (MP) that is stuck playing a role that he isn`t built for to a team that can utilize him better in exchange for rentals. This fixes issues with the salary cap, expansion draft and also sets the team up MUCH better for a cup run. This is very likely this cores last great chance. Literally every way you look at it this is the way to go.

Today I am going to do a 3 way trade that would be beneficial to everyone IMO.

Also a trade with Det.
Trades
1.
2.
PIT
  1. Getzlaf, Ryan ($4,125,000 retained)
ANA
  1. Wood, Miles
  2. 2021 7th round pick (ANA)
  3. 2022 3rd round pick (PIT)
3.
PIT
  1. Staal, Marc ($2,850,000 retained)
DET
  1. Riikola, Juuso
  2. 2021 5th round pick (PIT)
  3. 2022 4th round pick (PIT)
4.
PIT
  1. 2021 6th round pick (PIT)
Buyouts
Retained Salary Transactions
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2021
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the WSH
2022
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
2023
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
Logo of the PIT
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$79,231,667$0$850,000$2,268,333

Roster

Left WingCentreRight Wing
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$4,500,000$4,500,000
LW, RW
UFA - 4
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$8,700,000$8,700,000
C
NMC
UFA - 5
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,500,000$3,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$2,940,000$2,940,000
C, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$9,500,000$9,500,000
C
NMC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,200,000$3,200,000
RW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$5,500,000$5,500,000
LW, RW
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Anaheim Ducks
$4,125,000$4,125,000
C
NMC
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$700,000$700,000
LW, C
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,000,000$1,000,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$750,000$750,000
C, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,500,000$3,500,000
LW, RW
M-NTC
UFA - 5
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$4,100,000$4,100,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 3
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$7,250,000$7,250,000
RD
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$3,500,000$3,500,000
G
UFA - 3
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$4,875,000$4,875,000
LD
UFA - 6
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,250,000$1,250,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$1,250,000$1,250,000
G
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Detroit Red Wings
$2,850,000$2,850,000
LD
NMC
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$700,000$700,000
C, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$700,000$700,000
C, LW
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$700,000$700,000
RD
UFA - 1
Taxi Squad
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$725,000$725,000 ($0$0$0$0)
LD/RD
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$792,500$792,500 ($0$0$0$0) (Performance Bonus$132,500$132K)
G
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$725,000$725,000 ($0$0$0$0)
C, RW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$700,000$700,000 ($0$0$0$0)
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the Pittsburgh Penguins
$700,000$700,000 ($0$0$0$0)
RW, C
UFA - 1

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Apr. 7, 2021 at 4:24 p.m.
#26
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Quoting: ChampEddy
Once again I think you have an extremely flawed thought process on valuating hockey players and the realities of managing a hockey organization so I don`t think what you said is true at all.

Terrible asset management would be to trade our limited futures away right now only to have to trade away MP in the offseason for futures even further down the line that would never help this team win a Stanley cup in their window. Trading MP right now for current players allows us to keep our limited assets while also improving the team and giving us better flexibility with the cap and the expansion draft.

So, the Penguins are a better team as a result of these moves AND they are better positioned prospect wise, salary cap wise and expansion draft wise. Seems like pretty good asset management while also setting the team up for success right now.

If you disagree, it is because you can`t see the value in Getzlaf and Marc Staal. That would be your fault because in reality those players are highly coveted.


The only way Marc Staal and highly coveted together is if the words “is not” are in between. Want proof...go look at what the rangers got for Marc Staal from Detroit. Btw, the rangers also added in a 2nd round pick. I’ll give you a hint. It starts with “n” and ends with “othing “. That’s right, they got “future considerations” which amounts to nothing for Marc Staal and a 2nd round pick.
Apr. 7, 2021 at 4:27 p.m.
#27
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Quoting: pharrow
how is he not under control?
He clearly is, that contract has years on it, and they protect him in the expansion draft. If Seattle wants to take Matheson, be my guest.
I'd much rather lose Matheson than McCann or Blueger.


The Penguins are going to protect Letang, Dumo and Matheson or Ceci (if we can resign him) before MP. Marino is exempt but his cap his rises to 4.6M. That means MP is GONE. What can you get for him in the offseason? A 3rd? A 2nd? Do you leave him exposed and just let Seattle takes him for nothing so they don`t take Tanev, Blueger or ZAR?

No, you move him now. Go for what is probably their last shot at a cup this this core by obtaining rentals and then use the cap space in the offseason to try and maybe go for one more run next year. That way you still have your 2021 2nd. You have all your 2022 picks. PLUS you are not hamstrung by the salary cap and risk losing MP for nothing.

Asset management 101
Apr. 7, 2021 at 4:28 p.m.
#28
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Quoting: Grusofsky96
This would’ve been better if you just stopped after trading for Miles Wood and that been the only move you make.


I do like Miles Wood but I think the Pens are better off with a RH C. Also, if we keep Miles Wood he would be exposed in the expansion draft. Plus we still would need a 3rd LD.
Apr. 7, 2021 at 4:28 p.m.
#29
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Quoting: Pensfan89
The only way Marc Staal and highly coveted together is if the words “is not” are in between. Want proof...go look at what the rangers got for Marc Staal from Detroit. Btw, the rangers also added in a 2nd round pick. I’ll give you a hint. It starts with “n” and ends with “othing “. That’s right, they got “future considerations” which amounts to nothing for Marc Staal and a 2nd round pick.


Because he isn`t worth 5.7M. We are getting him for 2.85M for one playoff run.
Apr. 7, 2021 at 4:30 p.m.
#30
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Quoting: Chigurrhh
Here's the thing. It's not about what team he's on. In fact, he's been better this year on that bad team than he has been for a long time with the Rangers (a less bad team). But even this improved version of him is a replacement level player.

Screen-Shot-2021-04-07-at-4-18-40-PM.png


Yes, he is not an analytics darling.

That is the 3rd tool that the Penguins management use to evaluate a player.
Apr. 7, 2021 at 4:34 p.m.
#31
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Quoting: ChampEddy
The Penguins are going to protect Letang, Dumo and Matheson or Ceci (if we can resign him) before MP. Marino is exempt but his cap his rises to 4.6M. That means MP is GONE. What can you get for him in the offseason? A 3rd? A 2nd? Do you leave him exposed and just let Seattle takes him for nothing so they don`t take Tanev, Blueger or ZAR?

No, you move him now. Go for what is probably their last shot at a cup this this core by obtaining rentals and then use the cap space in the offseason to try and maybe go for one more run next year. That way you still have your 2021 2nd. You have all your 2022 picks. PLUS you are not hamstrung by the salary cap and risk losing MP for nothing.

Asset management 101


they aren't protecting Ceci or Matheson over MP. That's just nonsense.
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Apr. 7, 2021 at 4:39 p.m.
#32
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Quoting: ChampEddy
Because he isn`t worth 5.7M. We are getting him for 2.85M for one playoff run.


He isn’t worth 2.85 M either lol
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Apr. 7, 2021 at 5:18 p.m.
#33
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Quoting: pharrow
they aren't protecting Ceci or Matheson over MP. That's just nonsense.


100% they are. Both are well above him on the depth chart.
Apr. 7, 2021 at 5:19 p.m.
#34
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Quoting: Pensfan89
He isn’t worth 2.85 M either lol


Agree to disagree
Apr. 7, 2021 at 5:45 p.m.
#35
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I think the Miles Wood for Pettersson deal makes sense, but probably as off-season move.
If it is before deadline, we could add Kulikov or Murray (both to be UFA) for picks (instead of Staal)
And Zajac (instead of Getzlaf).

(not sure how they measure in your charts)
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Apr. 7, 2021 at 5:51 p.m.
#36
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Quoting: ChampEddy
Yes, he is not an analytics darling.

That is the 3rd tool that the Penguins management use to evaluate a player.


He's also pretty much blind in one eye and skates very slowly
Apr. 7, 2021 at 11:13 p.m.
#37
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Quoting: ChampEddy
I do like Miles Wood but I think the Pens are better off with a RH C. Also, if we keep Miles Wood he would be exposed in the expansion draft. Plus we still would need a 3rd LD.


Either don’t trade Pettersson or just use Riikola. He’s a proven solid bottom guy. Sully just hates him for 0 reason.
Apr. 8, 2021 at 4:20 a.m.
#38
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Quoting: ChampEddy
100% they are. Both are well above him on the depth chart.


your valuation here is so off.
Ceci will probably leave as a free agent because the penguins aren't going to pay him.
They will also gladly let Seattle pick Matheson if they can.
They trust him so little in his own zone they have given him a whopping 3 minutes of PK time all year. Think about how devastated this defense has been and figure that one out.
He is not the Dman they are keeping.
I can't emphasize that enough. Dumo, Letang, MP will all be protected. Marino POJ will be exempt. They probably hope a younger player from WBS can step up and play RD next year as they are pressed against the cap and need forward help.
You can bet they will play a younger LD next year.
This is so clear to see.
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Apr. 8, 2021 at 4:24 a.m.
#39
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Quoting: Grusofsky96
Either don’t trade Pettersson or just use Riikola. He’s a proven solid bottom guy. Sully just hates him for 0 reason.


no reason......he hits people.
Same problem he had with Cole, who he chased out of here and killed the defense before a cup run.
This is why they aren't trading MP. They know better than this. Learn from mistakes.
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Apr. 8, 2021 at 11:56 a.m.
#40
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Quoting: pharrow
your valuation here is so off.
Ceci will probably leave as a free agent because the penguins aren't going to pay him.
They will also gladly let Seattle pick Matheson if they can.
They trust him so little in his own zone they have given him a whopping 3 minutes of PK time all year. Think about how devastated this defense has been and figure that one out.
He is not the Dman they are keeping.
I can't emphasize that enough. Dumo, Letang, MP will all be protected. Marino POJ will be exempt. They probably hope a younger player from WBS can step up and play RD next year as they are pressed against the cap and need forward help.
You can bet they will play a younger LD next year.
This is so clear to see.


If you think that the Penguins are keeping MP over Matheson I question if you have watched a single game in the past two months. Or listened to anyone in the organization speak.
Apr. 8, 2021 at 2:39 p.m.
#41
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Quoting: ChampEddy
If you think that the Penguins are keeping MP over Matheson I question if you have watched a single game in the past two months. Or listened to anyone in the organization speak.


i have seen every single game.
Yes, Matheson is a decent player, much better than the hate he gets on here. There is no doubt about that.
But he's still a liability in his own end. And for that reason, he'll be gone.
Apr. 8, 2021 at 2:58 p.m.
#42
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Quoting: pharrow
i have seen every single game.
Yes, Matheson is a decent player, much better than the hate he gets on here. There is no doubt about that.
But he's still a liability in his own end. And for that reason, he'll be gone.


Don`t disagree that he has a lot of blunders. BUT, it`s clear he is above MP on Pens org chart.

Even *IF* they protect him because of higher perceived trade value, then Seattle is not going to pick Matheson. They are going to select ZAR, Blueger, Tanev or Desmith. So then we would still need to trade Matheson or MP. So then they would trade MP because he is valued less inside Pens organization and because of his age you would get a better return.

So, either you lose MP in the draft, or protect him and trade him in the offseason to sign guys like Blueger, ZAR, Ceci etc...

Again, the idea is to move MP NOW for rentals to help you go on a playoff push this year. MP is not going to be a key player for the Pens this playoffs in the role he is playing. Getting a true #3 LD and a 3C and/or 3W is going to give the Pens a better chance to win this year. Then the rentals can leave in the offseason (or maybe resign) and you still have the cap space from the rentals leaving and MP gone. And you didn`t give up what limited prospects and picks we have.

Trying to argue that that isn`t the ideal strategy moving forward is just plain dumb.

I
Apr. 8, 2021 at 3:09 p.m.
#43
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Quoting: ChampEddy
Don`t disagree that he has a lot of blunders. BUT, it`s clear he is above MP on Pens org chart.

Even *IF* they protect him because of higher perceived trade value, then Seattle is not going to pick Matheson. They are going to select ZAR, Blueger, Tanev or Desmith. So then we would still need to trade Matheson or MP. So then they would trade MP because he is valued less inside Pens organization and because of his age you would get a better return.

So, either you lose MP in the draft, or protect him and trade him in the offseason to sign guys like Blueger, ZAR, Ceci etc...

Again, the idea is to move MP NOW for rentals to help you go on a playoff push this year. MP is not going to be a key player for the Pens this playoffs in the role he is playing. Getting a true #3 LD and a 3C and/or 3W is going to give the Pens a better chance to win this year. Then the rentals can leave in the offseason (or maybe resign) and you still have the cap space from the rentals leaving and MP gone. And you didn`t give up what limited prospects and picks we have.

Trying to argue that that isn`t the ideal strategy moving forward is just plain dumb.

I


the only thing that is plain dumb here is thinking you improve the team by killing the blueline.
FFS staal sucks.
You already got to hide Matheson out of the DZone, now you have to hide both and that's going to win games. How about no, bad idea.

You also don't know what is going to happen in the expansion draft. They could send Matheson and a 2nd and done.
Even if you send out MP and protect Matheson...you are still losing one of Blueger, Tanev or ZAR or McCann.
Those are just facts.
So if you can package a deal and send him, it's probably the best possible move they can make. It's not like he's played awful, and defense is always needed. So if they can get that deal done, you do it.
The cost of that isn't even that huge at this point. Because it's better than losing a player they can't replace in Blueger or McCann or Tanev.
Which really gets to the point of them needed to bribe Seattle anyway, so they might as well move that contract in the process.
Yo clearly have not thought this out. Because you can bet they don't want to lose either McCann or Blueger and they can't protect both.
So a deal is coming. Which means all bets are off on who they take.
Apr. 8, 2021 at 4:09 p.m.
#44
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Quoting: pharrow
the only thing that is plain dumb here is thinking you improve the team by killing the blueline.
FFS staal sucks.
You already got to hide Matheson out of the DZone, now you have to hide both and that's going to win games. How about no, bad idea.

You also don't know what is going to happen in the expansion draft. They could send Matheson and a 2nd and done.
Even if you send out MP and protect Matheson...you are still losing one of Blueger, Tanev or ZAR or McCann.
Those are just facts.
So if you can package a deal and send him, it's probably the best possible move they can make. It's not like he's played awful, and defense is always needed. So if they can get that deal done, you do it.
The cost of that isn't even that huge at this point. Because it's better than losing a player they can't replace in Blueger or McCann or Tanev.
Which really gets to the point of them needed to bribe Seattle anyway, so they might as well move that contract in the process.
Yo clearly have not thought this out. Because you can bet they don't want to lose either McCann or Blueger and they can't protect both.
So a deal is coming. Which means all bets are off on who they take.


"Tanev sucks"
"Ceci sucks"
"Matheson sucks"

I`ve heard it time and time again.

Oh wait...Maybe ever think that maybe, just maybe a guy that has played in the NHL for over a decade as a shutdown dman would probably be fine playing on a good team in a shutdown d bottom pairing/PK role? Marc Staal is fine in that role. Hide him out of the dzone? What? No, you play him in the dzone and on the PK. Matheson, yes you deploy him offensively. That is also why he is paired with Cody Ceci. I`m not saying Staal is going to light it up offensively. Thats fine. That isn`t who he is. But he would immedietly become the biggest/strongest dman on the team and that is something that this team lacks and is why they get bullied in front of the net IN THE REGULAR SEASON. Ever think about how that is going to be even worse in the playoffs? Tom WIlson, Nick Ritchie, Matt Martin, etc... are going to have their way infront of the net and score at will because our d are not big or strong enough. Look at the past 4 cup winners and look at their d cores. We are not big or strong enough to compete for a Stanley cup right now. Not even close. They are openly stating they are going to bring in a forward or two to help in the ozone. They also need to do the same in the dzone.

MP is a fine defenceman but he is supposed to be the one in the top 4 two-way role. He isn`t made or built to be in the role he is currently being forced to play in. There is no benefit in him continuing to play there. He is not helping this team at all in that role. AT ALL. Move him now to help this team now. Use the cap space and expansion draft flexibility to help this team in the offseason.

You can`t argue against this being the best course of action. Am I saying that MP is a more valuable/better player long term than someone like Staal? Nooooooooooo. Am I saying that Staal (an example, there are plenty of others who fit the bill) is better suited for the role they are in? Yes. Am I saying that the value you can get and the cap space you gain from trading MP ALSO improves the team and gets them their desired F target(s) without moving significant amounts of prospects/draft capital. YES.

Will the team be better in the present and in the future if they move MP right now. YES. Quite honestly, that is undeniable.
Apr. 8, 2021 at 6:04 p.m.
#45
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Quoting: ChampEddy
"Tanev sucks"
"Ceci sucks"
"Matheson sucks"

I`ve heard it time and time again.

Oh wait...Maybe ever think that maybe, just maybe a guy that has played in the NHL for over a decade as a shutdown dman would probably be fine playing on a good team in a shutdown d bottom pairing/PK role? Marc Staal is fine in that role. Hide him out of the dzone? What? No, you play him in the dzone and on the PK. Matheson, yes you deploy him offensively. That is also why he is paired with Cody Ceci. I`m not saying Staal is going to light it up offensively. Thats fine. That isn`t who he is. But he would immedietly become the biggest/strongest dman on the team and that is something that this team lacks and is why they get bullied in front of the net IN THE REGULAR SEASON. Ever think about how that is going to be even worse in the playoffs? Tom WIlson, Nick Ritchie, Matt Martin, etc... are going to have their way infront of the net and score at will because our d are not big or strong enough. Look at the past 4 cup winners and look at their d cores. We are not big or strong enough to compete for a Stanley cup right now. Not even close. They are openly stating they are going to bring in a forward or two to help in the ozone. They also need to do the same in the dzone.

MP is a fine defenceman but he is supposed to be the one in the top 4 two-way role. He isn`t made or built to be in the role he is currently being forced to play in. There is no benefit in him continuing to play there. He is not helping this team at all in that role. AT ALL. Move him now to help this team now. Use the cap space and expansion draft flexibility to help this team in the offseason.

You can`t argue against this being the best course of action. Am I saying that MP is a more valuable/better player long term than someone like Staal? Nooooooooooo. Am I saying that Staal (an example, there are plenty of others who fit the bill) is better suited for the role they are in? Yes. Am I saying that the value you can get and the cap space you gain from trading MP ALSO improves the team and gets them their desired F target(s) without moving significant amounts of prospects/draft capital. YES.

Will the team be better in the present and in the future if they move MP right now. YES. Quite honestly, that is undeniable.


funny the team wasn't "big" when it won 2 cups.

This is just a bad argument on your part. We didn't lose games from not being big enough. We didn't lose to MTL last year because we weren't big enough.

You are over here with straw man arguments. Staal is very objectively not a good hockey player at this point. At 34 years old that shouldn't surprise anyone.
Apr. 8, 2021 at 6:39 p.m.
#46
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Quoting: pharrow
funny the team wasn't "big" when it won 2 cups.

This is just a bad argument on your part. We didn't lose games from not being big enough. We didn't lose to MTL last year because we weren't big enough.

You are over here with straw man arguments. Staal is very objectively not a good hockey player at this point. At 34 years old that shouldn't surprise anyone.


Wrong again.

Penguins won in 2016/17 based off of speed and skill BUT they had tough,gritty players as well.

Ben Lovejoy, Ian Cole, Chris Kunitz, Eric Fehr, Patric Hornqvist, Carter Rowney, Ron Hainsey.

We now have Sidney Crosby. Brandon Tanev, Cody Ceci, ZAR and Brian Dumoulin. They want to add to that list. There is plenty of speed and skill elsewhere in the lineup.

These were ROLE players. These are what great teams are made of. You hear coaches talk about it all the time. Everyone has a role and they fit that role and the team fires on all cylinders. MP does not fit the role he is playing right now. Marc Staal does. Jordie Benn does. Derek Forbort does. These are just a few that are available. These guys are not usually easy to get. They ARE highly coveted because they often times are the pieces that take a team all the way.

We lost to MTL because GMJR did not build this team into a championship roster (and we ran into a hot goalie). The team had no jam. No spark. No sandpaper. We got rolled. The year prior was even worse against NYI. They bullied us. Same with 2018 against the Capitals. Not to mention, the league has realized that size and toughness are extremely important again after trying to totally eliminate it a few years back. The best, smartest managers realized this and made the change back to size and toughness and they won the last 3 Stanley Cups and will once again win this one. Tampa, Carolina, Boston, NYI, Washington, Colorado, Vegas. The best teams in the league. See a common theme with all of them? Big, tough, skilled teams. Do we need to go out and beat the crap out of them? No. But we do need pushback. We do need physicality. It is a mental game. Momentum. Playoff hockey is tough. Goals are hard. Often times they are scrums and tips. We accomplish nothing in front of the net outside of Sidney Crosbys line and Brian Dumoulin in our own end. We are weak around the crease throughout the majority of our team. They need to fix this or they don`t stand a chance in the playoffs.

The good thing is, Brian Burke and Ron Hextall are aware of this. They are going to make moves that reflect these FACTS in the coming days. The Penguins will be better for it. I just hope that they are brave enough to make significant enough moves that put us in a position to be a true contender. We can do it but there are moves that need to be made.

So, once again, your argument that the team is not going to be more competitive this playoffs as a result of these moves is just flat out wrong and it doesn`t take a genius to understand why. Really only takes anyone with any sort of true hockey knowledge/instinct. Does Team Canada take the 23 best players? The 23 top scorers? No. They take players who can fit specific roles on a team and create the best team. It isn`t a EA Sports simulation. It is real life. Reality is much more complex than a video game simulation or a stack of analytic charts.

The bonus is that these moves actually help the team in the long-run too. Which is why there is no question it is the best strategy moving forward.
Apr. 9, 2021 at 5:18 a.m.
#47
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Quoting: ChampEddy
Wrong again.

Penguins won in 2016/17 based off of speed and skill BUT they had tough,gritty players as well.

Ben Lovejoy, Ian Cole, Chris Kunitz, Eric Fehr, Patric Hornqvist, Carter Rowney, Ron Hainsey.

We now have Sidney Crosby. Brandon Tanev, Cody Ceci, ZAR and Brian Dumoulin. They want to add to that list. There is plenty of speed and skill elsewhere in the lineup.

These were ROLE players. These are what great teams are made of. You hear coaches talk about it all the time. Everyone has a role and they fit that role and the team fires on all cylinders. MP does not fit the role he is playing right now. Marc Staal does. Jordie Benn does. Derek Forbort does. These are just a few that are available. These guys are not usually easy to get. They ARE highly coveted because they often times are the pieces that take a team all the way.

We lost to MTL because GMJR did not build this team into a championship roster (and we ran into a hot goalie). The team had no jam. No spark. No sandpaper. We got rolled. The year prior was even worse against NYI. They bullied us. Same with 2018 against the Capitals. Not to mention, the league has realized that size and toughness are extremely important again after trying to totally eliminate it a few years back. The best, smartest managers realized this and made the change back to size and toughness and they won the last 3 Stanley Cups and will once again win this one. Tampa, Carolina, Boston, NYI, Washington, Colorado, Vegas. The best teams in the league. See a common theme with all of them? Big, tough, skilled teams. Do we need to go out and beat the crap out of them? No. But we do need pushback. We do need physicality. It is a mental game. Momentum. Playoff hockey is tough. Goals are hard. Often times they are scrums and tips. We accomplish nothing in front of the net outside of Sidney Crosbys line and Brian Dumoulin in our own end. We are weak around the crease throughout the majority of our team. They need to fix this or they don`t stand a chance in the playoffs.

The good thing is, Brian Burke and Ron Hextall are aware of this. They are going to make moves that reflect these FACTS in the coming days. The Penguins will be better for it. I just hope that they are brave enough to make significant enough moves that put us in a position to be a true contender. We can do it but there are moves that need to be made.

So, once again, your argument that the team is not going to be more competitive this playoffs as a result of these moves is just flat out wrong and it doesn`t take a genius to understand why. Really only takes anyone with any sort of true hockey knowledge/instinct. Does Team Canada take the 23 best players? The 23 top scorers? No. They take players who can fit specific roles on a team and create the best team. It isn`t a EA Sports simulation. It is real life. Reality is much more complex than a video game simulation or a stack of analytic charts.

The bonus is that these moves actually help the team in the long-run too. Which is why there is no question it is the best strategy moving forward.


You have read way to much click bait.
Just look at this list
Ben Lovejoy, Ian Cole, Chris Kunitz, Eric Fehr, Patric Hornqvist, Carter Rowney, Ron Hainsey

You got Kunitz and Cole...the only guys there who actually hit anyone. Truth is they got more players who hit today than they did then. Tanev, Lafferty, ZAR, Blueger.Zucker, Angello, Ceci...all hit more than they did then. But you think they don't have enough "grit"

Did you miss the parts where the team was outhit all over the ice against CBJ and WSH. They didn't lose games because of it. There wasn't any "grit"
Hell you had that little runt Calvert breaking the stick on TK because they were so frustrated they couldn't win and the penguins wouldn't engage them and turn it into a brawl. Because they knew that was not their game.

This is the point you seem to not realize. You aren't going to turn this roaster into what you want it to be. You don't have nearly the pieces nor the mindset to do it. When you turn away from what you are to try to pretend to be something different, you lose. This whole team started to go down hill with these ideas like "trade a 1st for Reaves" The last thing this team wants is a slug fest. They want to race up and down the ice and beat you with skill. That is their goal.

The biggest issues this team has had is the powerplay isn't effective. So it isn't costing other teams when they act like idiots.
You go out there and put the puck in the net every time and instantly they know they can't win that way. The game plan changes.
But you want to pretend this is about winning fist fights and not winning hockey games. I hate to break it to you, but they didn't have anyone to drop the gloves then and they don't really have it now. That's not going to change.

Furthermore, Colorado and TB are not big teams or overly physical either. TB just got the crap kicked out of it all over the ice by CBJ....but they won the game. They got a whole bunch of guys who drop gloves just to get killed. Like happened last night.

I don't know where you get these ideas from. TB is looking to smoke you on the ice because you can't catch them. They got like 2-3 guys on a 4th line somewhere. Nothing more than the penguins have.
But here you are trying to destroy the whole team for "grit"

but yeah, your trading assets away for rentals, helps the team in the long run....... sure thing.
Apr. 9, 2021 at 12:56 p.m.
#48
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Quoting: pharrow
You have read way to much click bait.
Just look at this list
Ben Lovejoy, Ian Cole, Chris Kunitz, Eric Fehr, Patric Hornqvist, Carter Rowney, Ron Hainsey

You got Kunitz and Cole...the only guys there who actually hit anyone. Truth is they got more players who hit today than they did then. Tanev, Lafferty, ZAR, Blueger.Zucker, Angello, Ceci...all hit more than they did then. But you think they don't have enough "grit"

Did you miss the parts where the team was outhit all over the ice against CBJ and WSH. They didn't lose games because of it. There wasn't any "grit"
Hell you had that little runt Calvert breaking the stick on TK because they were so frustrated they couldn't win and the penguins wouldn't engage them and turn it into a brawl. Because they knew that was not their game.

This is the point you seem to not realize. You aren't going to turn this roaster into what you want it to be. You don't have nearly the pieces nor the mindset to do it. When you turn away from what you are to try to pretend to be something different, you lose. This whole team started to go down hill with these ideas like "trade a 1st for Reaves" The last thing this team wants is a slug fest. They want to race up and down the ice and beat you with skill. That is their goal.

The biggest issues this team has had is the powerplay isn't effective. So it isn't costing other teams when they act like idiots.
You go out there and put the puck in the net every time and instantly they know they can't win that way. The game plan changes.
But you want to pretend this is about winning fist fights and not winning hockey games. I hate to break it to you, but they didn't have anyone to drop the gloves then and they don't really have it now. That's not going to change.

Furthermore, Colorado and TB are not big teams or overly physical either. TB just got the crap kicked out of it all over the ice by CBJ....but they won the game. They got a whole bunch of guys who drop gloves just to get killed. Like happened last night.

I don't know where you get these ideas from. TB is looking to smoke you on the ice because you can't catch them. They got like 2-3 guys on a 4th line somewhere. Nothing more than the penguins have.
But here you are trying to destroy the whole team for "grit"

but yeah, your trading assets away for rentals, helps the team in the long run....... sure thing.


Wait what? Hornqvist, Lovejoy, Rowney and Fehr? Every single one of those players are grittier and tougher...Angello is an AHL player as is Lafferty. Both are not playing for a healthy Penguins team. Blueger and Zucker are good on the forecheck but they are not the types of players Burke and Hextall are talking about at all.

Yes, the "just play" mantra worked. How was that worked since? The difference is that the Penguins kept their speed and skill focus but took the "just play" too far and lacked any sort of physicality and pushback. Burke and Hextall want to bring that element back to this team. No one is saying that we need to turn into the Broad Street Bullies...Also If we are being honest we should not have beaten WSH those years. They pounded the piss out of us and outplayed us but we got really good goaltending and clutch goals.

So aside from you putting words in my mouth and distorting what I`m trying to say I don`t even know where to start on the rest of your points because they`re just flat out wrong. You are seriously saying that Tampa Bay isn`t a big, physical team? Are you friggen kidding me?! Victor Hedman? Erik Cernak? Luke Schenn? Zach Bogosian (last year),Braydon Coburn (last year), Patrick Maroon? Alex Killorn? Then they have their Tanevs/ZAR`s Coleman, Goodrow, Gourde.

I am so so so so glad you used that as your example because it literally just reaffirms you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Tampa Bay has been the most skilled team in the league for 5 years. Up until last year, they had playoff tragedy after tragedy. Then, last year...All of a sudden...The GM said..."We need to get bigger and tougher" which they did, adding a lot of those players I just mentioned...AND GUESS WHAT?! THEY FINALLY WON!

Now, the NHL is a copycat league. What is every other team trying to do? Build a Stanley Cup champion. How do they do that? Speed/skill and size/toughness. THAT IS THE WINNING FORMULA. There is not an argument against it. That is how you win in the Stanley Cup Playoffs. Toronto figured it out now too and finally brought in some size and toughness. They are looking pretty good eh? Every top team in the league is built this way.

So again, NOBODY is saying we need a team of goons. I didn`t say it. No one is saying that. What the league managers and anyone with any sort of hockey knowledge is saying is that while obviously speed and skill are important you need an element of size, toughness and physicality to win and especially to win in the playoffs.

Can you just admit you are wrong? There is literally no way you can argue this? It`s alright man...I`ve been wrong about things before too. I can admit it. Can you?
Apr. 9, 2021 at 2:02 p.m.
#49
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Quoting: ChampEddy
Wait what? Hornqvist, Lovejoy, Rowney and Fehr? Every single one of those players are grittier and tougher...Angello is an AHL player as is Lafferty. Both are not playing for a healthy Penguins team. Blueger and Zucker are good on the forecheck but they are not the types of players Burke and Hextall are talking about at all.

Yes, the "just play" mantra worked. How was that worked since? The difference is that the Penguins kept their speed and skill focus but took the "just play" too far and lacked any sort of physicality and pushback. Burke and Hextall want to bring that element back to this team. No one is saying that we need to turn into the Broad Street Bullies...Also If we are being honest we should not have beaten WSH those years. They pounded the piss out of us and outplayed us but we got really good goaltending and clutch goals.

So aside from you putting words in my mouth and distorting what I`m trying to say I don`t even know where to start on the rest of your points because they`re just flat out wrong. You are seriously saying that Tampa Bay isn`t a big, physical team? Are you friggen kidding me?! Victor Hedman? Erik Cernak? Luke Schenn? Zach Bogosian (last year),Braydon Coburn (last year), Patrick Maroon? Alex Killorn? Then they have their Tanevs/ZAR`s Coleman, Goodrow, Gourde.

I am so so so so glad you used that as your example because it literally just reaffirms you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Tampa Bay has been the most skilled team in the league for 5 years. Up until last year, they had playoff tragedy after tragedy. Then, last year...All of a sudden...The GM said..."We need to get bigger and tougher" which they did, adding a lot of those players I just mentioned...AND GUESS WHAT?! THEY FINALLY WON!

Now, the NHL is a copycat league. What is every other team trying to do? Build a Stanley Cup champion. How do they do that? Speed/skill and size/toughness. THAT IS THE WINNING FORMULA. There is not an argument against it. That is how you win in the Stanley Cup Playoffs. Toronto figured it out now too and finally brought in some size and toughness. They are looking pretty good eh? Every top team in the league is built this way.

So again, NOBODY is saying we need a team of goons. I didn`t say it. No one is saying that. What the league managers and anyone with any sort of hockey knowledge is saying is that while obviously speed and skill are important you need an element of size, toughness and physicality to win and especially to win in the playoffs.

Can you just admit you are wrong? There is literally no way you can argue this? It`s alright man...I`ve been wrong about things before too. I can admit it. Can you?


dude what part of this team didn't have grit then either don't you get.
They didn't out grit anyone on their way to two cups. They were out hit in like every single game.
Jesus the CBJ series with the stick broke on top of TK is poster boy of that.

Hornqvist is 5' nothing. he didn't lay any actual hits on anyone. He got credited with some stats but he's never been a physical player. He's a pest, not a checker.
He's more likely to get beat up in the front of the net than DO anything about it.
The whole list of what you had there, like none of those guys other than Kunitz and Cole were actually known for being physical players. The fact that you think Rowney and Fehr were some physical force is hilarious, it's like you didn't even watch those games.
They won cups the same way TB did last year. They out skilled the other team. They weren't trying to have street brawls.
And you look at the team now, You say guys like Lafferty and Angello are AHL players, so were Fehr and Rowny. These were both guys who were tweeners on the penguins.
You can look at most teams 4th liners and they are fringe AHL players.
You have just as many physical bodies on the penguins this year as back when they won. Hell depending how you stack them you have a more physical team. As those teams didn't have anyone 6'6 220-30lbs willing to hit. They didn't have anything close to that. This team now has plenty of grit on it.
The truth is you aren't replacing guys like Kap and Rust Jake and Zucker with a goon. That doesn't improve the team. Nor do you improve the team taking off an actual gritty 3rd line with skill that wins when it comes to playing hockey. Or removing McCann off the ice.
You don't win weakening the blue line for guys who can't play hockey anymore.
This idea you have that somehow this team was "physical" compared to the current team is delusional. It wasn't. You can go look up old articles. They are all written like....can PIT deal with [Insert team here] physical play.
Apr. 9, 2021 at 2:50 p.m.
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Quoting: pharrow
dude what part of this team didn't have grit then either don't you get.
They didn't out grit anyone on their way to two cups. They were out hit in like every single game.
Jesus the CBJ series with the stick broke on top of TK is poster boy of that.

Hornqvist is 5' nothing. he didn't lay any actual hits on anyone. He got credited with some stats but he's never been a physical player. He's a pest, not a checker.
He's more likely to get beat up in the front of the net than DO anything about it.
The whole list of what you had there, like none of those guys other than Kunitz and Cole were actually known for being physical players. The fact that you think Rowney and Fehr were some physical force is hilarious, it's like you didn't even watch those games.
They won cups the same way TB did last year. They out skilled the other team. They weren't trying to have street brawls.
And you look at the team now, You say guys like Lafferty and Angello are AHL players, so were Fehr and Rowny. These were both guys who were tweeners on the penguins.
You can look at most teams 4th liners and they are fringe AHL players.
You have just as many physical bodies on the penguins this year as back when they won. Hell depending how you stack them you have a more physical team. As those teams didn't have anyone 6'6 220-30lbs willing to hit. They didn't have anything close to that. This team now has plenty of grit on it.
The truth is you aren't replacing guys like Kap and Rust Jake and Zucker with a goon. That doesn't improve the team. Nor do you improve the team taking off an actual gritty 3rd line with skill that wins when it comes to playing hockey. Or removing McCann off the ice.
You don't win weakening the blue line for guys who can't play hockey anymore.
This idea you have that somehow this team was "physical" compared to the current team is delusional. It wasn't. You can go look up old articles. They are all written like....can PIT deal with [Insert team here] physical play.


Man...you just keep going in circles and putting words in my mouth because you know you`re flat out wrong...

First off...Eric Fehr was an AHL player eh? Makes sense...In reality he is a 18th overall pick and played parts of two seasons in the AHL before being a regular NHL player for a long career.

For the 5th time, NOBODY IS SAYING WE NEED A TEAM OF GOONS OR WE NEED TO REPLACE OUR SKILL PLAYERS WITH GOONS.

What is needed though, as CLEARLY defined by other top teams and championship rosters, are tough, gritty players. That is how you win in this league in the playoffs. We aren`t building the broad street bullies. Nobody is. Hell, do you think Staal, Getzlaf, Bennett, Virtanen etc... are going to fix Tom Wilson? No. He would destroy any of them. But it gives us pushback and allows us to gain momentum through physical play and wearing down the opponent. We are building a contender though that was size, toughness and physicality. That encompasses a lot of different things and not just fighting, as anyone who knows the game would realize. Yes, the Penguins got clobbered by CBJ and Wash and won. BUT they still had tougher, more physical teams. Your comment on Patric Hornqvist is another perfect example of how you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Patric Hornqvist is one of the most INTEGRAL parts of those teams that won. He is a machine infront of the net. Physcial, tough, gritty. In your face. FIERY. He made it hell on goalies and the other teams D made it hell on him. Its not an easy job. Very few players are willing to do what he does. THAT is phyiscality and toughness in the NHL. THAT is how you score and win in the playoffs. There is so much more to the terms "physicality" "grit" "toughness" "size" than hitting and fighting. You just don`t understand the game and can`t wrap your head around its true definition and importance.

Again, there is no argument against this. Ask any NHL GM, coach, player etc. Look at the best teams. Look at recent cup winners. Watch a playoff game.

One last time so you can`t reword everything I said:

NOBODY WANTS THE BROAD STREET BULLIES. SIZE AND TOUGHNESS DO NOT EXCLUSIVELY MEAN FIGHTING AND SENDING PEOPLE INTO THE 3RD ROW. WHAT THIS TEAM IS LACKING AND IS REQUIRED TO WIN IS TOUGH, PHYSICAL, GRITTY PLAYERS. YOU HAVE FAILED TO PROVIDE ANY SORT OF ARGUMENT AGAINST THIS FACT THAT IT IS INTEGRAL TO WINNING BECAUSE THE PENGUINS HAD THOSE PLAYERS WHEN THEY WON ALONG WITH SKILL AND SPEED.

There is no actual argument against it. It is fact. Stick to video games and charts man. The real NHL is too complicated for people who haven`t played and/or understand the game. In the next 72 hours the Penguins are making a move to reflect what I have said here. They will bring a player or two that define what I am talking about. We will be a better team for it. Hopefully they go all out and make this last run at a cup.
 
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