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Created by: AlliDOisBleedBlue
Team: 2021-22 St. Louis Blues
Initial Creation Date: Jun. 15, 2021
Published: Jun. 16, 2021
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
2$1,750,000
2$1,750,000
1$925,000
UFAYEARSCAP HIT
2$2,000,000
2$3,250,000
1$850,000
Trades
1.
STL
  1. 2021 1st round pick (WSH)
DET
  1. Dunn, Vince [RFA Rights]
2.
STL
  1. 2021 2nd round pick (TOR)
3.
STL
  1. Eichel, Jack ($1,500,000 retained)
BUF
  1. Alexandrov, Nikita
  2. Thomas, Robert [RFA Rights]
  3. 2021 2nd round pick (TOR)
  4. 2022 1st round pick (STL)
  5. 2023 1st round pick (STL)
4.
DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
2021
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Logo of the WSH
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Logo of the DET
2022
Logo of the STL
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Logo of the STL
Logo of the STL
Logo of the STL
2023
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Logo of the STL
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ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$71,382,182$306,349$425,000$10,117,818

Roster

Left WingCentreRight Wing
$2,000,000$2,000,000
C, LW
UFA - 2
Logo of the Buffalo Sabres
$8,500,000$8,500,000
C
UFA - 5
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$4,000,000$4,000,000
RW, LW
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$1,750,000$1,750,000
RW
UFA - 2
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$1,875,000$1,875,000
C
UFA - 2
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$3,750,000$3,750,000
RW
NTC
UFA - 2
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$863,333$863,333 (Performance Bonus$425,000$425K)
LW, RW
RFA - 1
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$6,500,000$6,500,000
C, LW
NTC
UFA - 7
$3,250,000$3,250,000
RW, LW
UFA - 4
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$1,750,000$1,750,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$2,750,000$2,750,000
RW, C
UFA - 2
$850,000$850,000
RW
UFA - 2
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$3,275,000$3,275,000
LD
M-NTC
UFA - 3
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$5,500,000$5,500,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$6,000,000$6,000,000
G
NTC
UFA - 6
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$6,500,000$6,500,000
LD
NTC
UFA - 6
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$6,500,000$6,500,000
RD
NTC
UFA - 6
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$725,000$725,000
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$1,375,000$1,375,000
RD
UFA - 1
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$750,000$750,000
G
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$900,000$900,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$787,500$787,500
LD
UFA - 1
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$925,000$925,000
LW
UFA - 1
Taxi Squad
Logo of the St. Louis Blues
$925,000$925,000 ($0$0$0$0) (Performance Bonus$1,300,000$1M)
LD
RFA - 1

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Jun. 16, 2021 at 1:43 a.m.
#1
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Detroit accepts. Dunn belongs here.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 2:05 a.m.
#2
STL
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I think the #23 overall pick is quite a wishful return for Dunn. I think at best NJ might be willing to send the #30 overall.
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Jun. 16, 2021 at 2:14 a.m.
#3
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Quoting: jwg314
I think the #23 overall pick is quite a wishful return for Dunn. I think at best NJ might be willing to send the #30 overall.


It's the 22nd pick, Arizona forfeited theirs.

Dunn fills a very big hole in Detroit - for a very long time. It's a good deal for us.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 2:15 a.m.
#4
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Quoting: Billy12Bob
It's the 22nd pick, Arizona forfeited theirs.

Dunn fills a very big hole in Detroit - for a very long time. It's a good deal for us.


If Detroit would go for it, I’m all aboard.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 4:54 a.m.
#5
mokumboi
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Jun. 16, 2021 at 7:13 a.m.
#6
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That doesn’t get you eichel.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 7:48 a.m.
#7
Pop Pop
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So i think Dunn to Detroits makes just alot of sense. Id prefer a pair of 2nds to the 1st but I'm sure a deal can be worked out there.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 8:01 a.m.
#8
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Dunn trade makes sense for both clubs. Don't think Toronto accepts that but who knows.
Can't imagine Buffalo accepting that. Not to mention, Buffalo won't retain in any capacity on Eichel.
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Jun. 16, 2021 at 8:04 a.m.
#9
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I still fail to see how Dunn gets a better return than Toews. A 2nd + 3rd would be more than fair considering what defensemen went for last offseason.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 12:05 p.m.
#10
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Quoting: BStinson
I still fail to see how Dunn gets a better return than Toews. A 2nd + 3rd would be more than fair considering what defensemen went for last offseason.


Toews had 2 seasons in the league, had one really good season, and was 26 at the time of the trade. Dunn is 24, has had five 20+ point seasons already (including 20 in 43gp this season) and a Stanley Cup to add to it and was able to do it in less minutes played than Toews. Math checks out if you ask me. I would also argue a 22nd overall pick in this draft is not significantly more than what Toews got.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 12:43 p.m.
#11
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Quoting: Chopper02
Toews had 2 seasons in the league, had one really good season, and was 26 at the time of the trade. Dunn is 24, has had five 20+ point seasons already (including 20 in 43gp this season) and a Stanley Cup to add to it and was able to do it in less minutes played than Toews. Math checks out if you ask me. I would also argue a 22nd overall pick in this draft is not significantly more than what Toews got.

Two late second round picks isn’t worth 22 OVR. For reference Detroit traded back with SJ (Mantha) from 18 OVR to 20 OVR for a late second round pick.

Toews had two seasons where he looked solid. Dunn has yet to take a top 4 slot TOI for his team. I’m not saying he’s chopped liver but rather I’d offer accordingly EDM or NYR 2nd + VGK 3rd and if it’s rejected then I’d look elsewhere. He also had 4 seasons not 5 where he’s 20pt + and that’s not exactly a high bar.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 1:15 p.m.
#12
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Quoting: BStinson
Two late second round picks isn’t worth 22 OVR. For reference Detroit traded back with SJ (Mantha) from 18 OVR to 20 OVR for a late second round pick.

Toews had two seasons where he looked solid. Dunn has yet to take a top 4 slot TOI for his team. I’m not saying he’s chopped liver but rather I’d offer accordingly EDM or NYR 2nd + VGK 3rd and if it’s rejected then I’d look elsewhere. He also had 4 seasons not 5 where he’s 20pt + and that’s not exactly a high bar.


Meant 4 seasons, fat finger got me.

But again, that's not the issue. Also worth noting it's hard to crack a top 4 when you're as deep as the Blues are and before he got injured he was playing his best hockey and cracking the top 4.
But again, this makes the 20 points in each season feat that more impressive. And again, Toews had two seasons at an older age. Dunn is younger and would be in control for more years than Toews. Again, 22nd overall in a questionable draft year isn't that more significant. It's more value, but not significant.
So let's recap:
24 years old, 4 years of 20+ points on a deep defensive team, Stanley Cup champion and will be under team control for more years...sorry, that is worth more than a 26 year old with one good year and one "solid" year.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 1:51 p.m.
#13
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Quoting: Chopper02
Meant 4 seasons, fat finger got me.

But again, that's not the issue. Also worth noting it's hard to crack a top 4 when you're as deep as the Blues are and before he got injured he was playing his best hockey and cracking the top 4.
But again, this makes the 20 points in each season feat that more impressive. And again, Toews had two seasons at an older age. Dunn is younger and would be in control for more years than Toews. Again, 22nd overall in a questionable draft year isn't that more significant. It's more value, but not significant.
So let's recap:
24 years old, 4 years of 20+ points on a deep defensive team, Stanley Cup champion and will be under team control for more years...sorry, that is worth more than a 26 year old with one good year and one "solid" year.

You’re really underselling Toews to make your point that they're comparable. Could Dunn improve to that level someday? Sure, but let’s not act like the two years difference is some crazy amount of time here. Some would argue that Toews had less games at the NHL at that level and therefore more room to improve so it goes both ways. Dunn has also received PP time so it’s not like 20+ EV points while playing ~14-15 mins a night. Like I said I’d offer what I mentioned earlier or even up it to EDM/NYR 2nd + DET 3rd which is the same value as Colorado’s Toews deal. If the ask is more then I’d look elsewhere and even with this “weak” draft which everyone calls it I see a ton of potential talent at 22. What people call “weak” is the top end talent which doesn’t effect this pick so that’s extremely moot.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 2:17 p.m.
#14
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Quoting: BStinson
You’re really underselling Toews to make your point that they're comparable. Could Dunn improve to that level someday? Sure, but let’s not act like the two years difference is some crazy amount of time here. Some would argue that Toews had less games at the NHL at that level and therefore more room to improve so it goes both ways. Dunn has also received PP time so it’s not like 20+ EV points while playing ~14-15 mins a night. Like I said I’d offer what I mentioned earlier or even up it to EDM/NYR 2nd + DET 3rd which is the same value as Colorado’s Toews deal. If the ask is more then I’d look elsewhere and even with this “weak” draft which everyone calls it I see a ton of potential talent at 22. What people call “weak” is the top end talent which doesn’t effect this pick so that’s extremely moot.


Two years is actually a pretty big deal when it comes to potential and development. Look at Pelech, he was just okay but then this year he flourished out of nowhere to be a top pair shut down guy. One year can make all the difference and he had 5 years (not a fat finger) before this season. Also worth mentioning defensemen hit their prime years later than forwards. I'm not underselling Toews. In fact I would have given up a first for him if I were a team, but the Isles were up against the cap and needed to dump an RFA. Blues aren't in that position. People look at it from the standpoint of "they can't protect all of them" when the reality is they could easily expose Faulk or Krug because Seattle won't take those contracts out of the gate. So that's another advantage Blues have that the Isles didn't have.
So yes, Dunn is worth a late first (and so was Toews) so this idea no team should give up anything more than a late 2nd and a 3rd is preposterous
Jun. 16, 2021 at 2:44 p.m.
#15
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Quoting: Chopper02
Two years is actually a pretty big deal when it comes to potential and development. Look at Pelech, he was just okay but then this year he flourished out of nowhere to be a top pair shut down guy. One year can make all the difference and he had 5 years (not a fat finger) before this season. Also worth mentioning defensemen hit their prime years later than forwards. I'm not underselling Toews. In fact I would have given up a first for him if I were a team, but the Isles were up against the cap and needed to dump an RFA. Blues aren't in that position. People look at it from the standpoint of "they can't protect all of them" when the reality is they could easily expose Faulk or Krug because Seattle won't take those contracts out of the gate. So that's another advantage Blues have that the Isles didn't have.
So yes, Dunn is worth a late first (and so was Toews) so this idea no team should give up anything more than a late 2nd and a 3rd is preposterous

Games played (~200 gp) is a universal measure I’ve seen used amongst the hockey community. I would agree it’s much harder for a defensemen to transition to the NHL versus a forward but I haven’t seen anyone claim otherwise in this exchange. Pelech is another one that was good before this last year and you can ask Islander fan. I’m not sure I understand your rationale for getting more value than Toews. Are you saying you predict he’ll be better than Toews in 2 years? If so, what % are you confident in that assessment because he was traded as a top pair defensemen and signed to an bargain of a contract so there’s a risk that needs to be addressed. So while I agree that Dunn isn’t done developing and there are cases where defensemen take off later in their careers there are also cases where increased workloads/QoC can hurt an individual. Can you provide one comparable in the Covid era to support this 22 OVR evaluation? I see a ton of speculation “I would’ve done X”, “he’s really worth X but got traded for Y”. I don’t mean to call you out on it but you really can’t justify your point with pure speculation. Islanders could’ve moved a multitude of players and he was worth 2x late seconds because that’s what he got. STL could expose Faulk/Krug but will they? What does that say about the Faulk trade? Why would a UFA sign there after they dealt Krug in a year? Maybe they value them more considering TOI/utilization?
Jun. 16, 2021 at 3:10 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: BStinson
Games played (~200 gp) is a universal measure I’ve seen used amongst the hockey community. I would agree it’s much harder for a defensemen to transition to the NHL versus a forward but I haven’t seen anyone claim otherwise in this exchange. Pelech is another one that was good before this last year and you can ask Islander fan. I’m not sure I understand your rationale for getting more value than Toews. Are you saying you predict he’ll be better than Toews in 2 years? If so, what % are you confident in that assessment because he was traded as a top pair defensemen and signed to an bargain of a contract so there’s a risk that needs to be addressed. So while I agree that Dunn isn’t done developing and there are cases where defensemen take off later in their careers there are also cases where increased workloads/QoC can hurt an individual. Can you provide one comparable in the Covid era to support this 22 OVR evaluation? I see a ton of speculation “I would’ve done X”, “he’s really worth X but got traded for Y”. I don’t mean to call you out on it but you really can’t justify your point with pure speculation. Islanders could’ve moved a multitude of players and he was worth 2x late seconds because that’s what he got. STL could expose Faulk/Krug but will they? What does that say about the Faulk trade? Why would a UFA sign there after they dealt Krug in a year? Maybe they value them more considering TOI/utilization?


Islanders were in a bind and trading Toews made the most sense. Again, he had 2 seasons under his belt and was older when dealt. His ceiling is not as high as Dunn's is right now which is something else you pay for when trading a young piece unless there is something seriously wrong with that player (see Yakupov or Fabbri). Toews was the easiest player to move because of his RFA status plus a cap strapped team. This hurts value whether you like it or not and a team like Colorado can come in and take him for less. If there was a better offer on the table for Toews, they would have gotten more but had to move a piece who wasn't signed. Again, Pelech was fine but he wasn't anything like he was this year. A year can make a difference, two years can be even bigger difference. Dunn is worth a 1st just like Toews was, but circumstances played into the decision. Blues could leave Krug/Faulk exposed (it would be Krug) and not think twice, that's not a big deal.
But let's look at this from Detroit's perspective, can they get a guy at 22nd overall that could be at or better than Dunn's level in 2 to 3 years? The answer is probably not and a 24 year old defenseman with a ton of room to grow with a young team who can already put up 20+ points and QB a power play is very helpful for that team.
So you have to look at the team that is trading for that player. Dunn is better than the rest of Detroit's LD whereas Toews was not better than Girard and also likely won't be part of their long term plans with Byram coming up. There are variables that play into decisions of teams and Detroit (or many other young teams) have more reason to trade a first for Dunn than a competitive team for Toews who again had one solid season and one really good season. Avalanche wasn't sure if Toews would be better than Graves or Girard so why trade two seconds to a cap strapped team?
Jun. 16, 2021 at 3:40 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: BStinson
Games played (~200 gp) is a universal measure I’ve seen used amongst the hockey community. I would agree it’s much harder for a defensemen to transition to the NHL versus a forward but I haven’t seen anyone claim otherwise in this exchange. Pelech is another one that was good before this last year and you can ask Islander fan. I’m not sure I understand your rationale for getting more value than Toews. Are you saying you predict he’ll be better than Toews in 2 years? If so, what % are you confident in that assessment because he was traded as a top pair defensemen and signed to an bargain of a contract so there’s a risk that needs to be addressed. So while I agree that Dunn isn’t done developing and there are cases where defensemen take off later in their careers there are also cases where increased workloads/QoC can hurt an individual. Can you provide one comparable in the Covid era to support this 22 OVR evaluation? I see a ton of speculation “I would’ve done X”, “he’s really worth X but got traded for Y”. I don’t mean to call you out on it but you really can’t justify your point with pure speculation. Islanders could’ve moved a multitude of players and he was worth 2x late seconds because that’s what he got. STL could expose Faulk/Krug but will they? What does that say about the Faulk trade? Why would a UFA sign there after they dealt Krug in a year? Maybe they value them more considering TOI/utilization?


At the end of the day, it depends on what a team is willing to pay for. Unfortunately for the Blues, there's a tale of two Vince Dunn's. Dunn has a higher ceiling and his second half of this year showed what he can do.
I think the question of "what is he worth versus what will he get" is a legitimate one and don't dispute that. For me personally, I'd rather go after an exempt prospect who shows promise and a 2nd. More specifically, I would love Bode Wilde and a 2nd from Islanders because in my opinion that is worth more than what the 22nd pick will likely be this year.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 4:24 p.m.
#18
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Quoting: Chopper02
Islanders were in a bind and trading Toews made the most sense. Again, he had 2 seasons under his belt and was older when dealt. His ceiling is not as high as Dunn's is right now which is something else you pay for when trading a young piece unless there is something seriously wrong with that player (see Yakupov or Fabbri). Toews was the easiest player to move because of his RFA status plus a cap strapped team. This hurts value whether you like it or not and a team like Colorado can come in and take him for less. If there was a better offer on the table for Toews, they would have gotten more but had to move a piece who wasn't signed. Again, Pelech was fine but he wasn't anything like he was this year. A year can make a difference, two years can be even bigger difference. Dunn is worth a 1st just like Toews was, but circumstances played into the decision. Blues could leave Krug/Faulk exposed (it would be Krug) and not think twice, that's not a big deal.
But let's look at this from Detroit's perspective, can they get a guy at 22nd overall that could be at or better than Dunn's level in 2 to 3 years? The answer is probably not and a 24 year old defenseman with a ton of room to grow with a young team who can already put up 20+ points and QB a power play is very helpful for that team.
So you have to look at the team that is trading for that player. Dunn is better than the rest of Detroit's LD whereas Toews was not better than Girard and also likely won't be part of their long term plans with Byram coming up. There are variables that play into decisions of teams and Detroit (or many other young teams) have more reason to trade a first for Dunn than a competitive team for Toews who again had one solid season and one really good season. Avalanche wasn't sure if Toews would be better than Graves or Girard so why trade two seconds to a cap strapped team?

I wouldn’t say Dunn has a higher ceiling than Toews. We’re talking about Toews who by all accounts is a top pairing defensemen. We keep going back and forth, like I said Dunn isn’t chopped liver but I’m not paying a premium for theoretical potential when he hasn’t forced his way up the lineup in STL. What makes you think Toews wasn’t on par or better than Girard? He played more EV and looked really good with Girard and Makar as pairings. I don’t think anyone thought Graves was even remotely close to Toews during that trade and if they were they probably used +/- as justification so I’ll leave that argument be. Pelech analytically was great before even this year but again some of that spotlight went to Toews so yeah he’s going to get more “mainstream”. We could also say Ghostbear or Gardiner would be Detroit’s best LD and they cleared waivers, why not get addition assets to take their cap on and they’re both decent PP QBs.

There’s a good amount of talent that could be had at 22 OVR compared to those mid-late seconds. Guys like Lambos, Sillinger, Svechkov, Chibrikov, and Rosen and if they’re not then someone fell even further. I’m not sure what 2-3 years has to do with it considering Detroit is a way off but defensively if a guy like Lambos is even close to that pick I’d wager he’d be a great addition to Detroit.

Quoting: Chopper02
At the end of the day, it depends on what a team is willing to pay for. Unfortunately for the Blues, there's a tale of two Vince Dunn's. Dunn has a higher ceiling and his second half of this year showed what he can do.
I think the question of "what is he worth versus what will he get" is a legitimate one and don't dispute that. For me personally, I'd rather go after an exempt prospect who shows promise and a 2nd. More specifically, I would love Bode Wilde and a 2nd from Islanders because in my opinion that is worth more than what the 22nd pick will likely be this year.

So what prospect + second from Detroit?
Jun. 16, 2021 at 4:56 p.m.
#19
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Quoting: BStinson
I wouldn’t say Dunn has a higher ceiling than Toews. We’re talking about Toews who by all accounts is a top pairing defensemen. We keep going back and forth, like I said Dunn isn’t chopped liver but I’m not paying a premium for theoretical potential when he hasn’t forced his way up the lineup in STL. What makes you think Toews wasn’t on par or better than Girard? He played more EV and looked really good with Girard and Makar as pairings. I don’t think anyone thought Graves was even remotely close to Toews during that trade and if they were they probably used +/- as justification so I’ll leave that argument be. Pelech analytically was great before even this year but again some of that spotlight went to Toews so yeah he’s going to get more “mainstream”. We could also say Ghostbear or Gardiner would be Detroit’s best LD and they cleared waivers, why not get addition assets to take their cap on and they’re both decent PP QBs.

There’s a good amount of talent that could be had at 22 OVR compared to those mid-late seconds. Guys like Lambos, Sillinger, Svechkov, Chibrikov, and Rosen and if they’re not then someone fell even further. I’m not sure what 2-3 years has to do with it considering Detroit is a way off but defensively if a guy like Lambos is even close to that pick I’d wager he’d be a great addition to Detroit.


So what prospect + second from Detroit?


Graves was a beast defensively but lacked the offensive side of the game. Girard was already well established and a very good overall player. With Toews came a question of is he more like year two Toews which was great but also a contract year, or year one which was solid, but not great? Or was it option 3, the Barry Trotz system which is great for defensemen and goalies. Now with the year Toews had in Colorado, we know the answer, but we didn't then. I've always liked Toews and I was p****d when the Blues didn't trade for him but instead opted for Krug because we all kind of knew he would be traded, but again there were other variables that played into the decision.

As far as Detroit goes for a pick and prospect? Not sure if there is a trade there because the Blues would need someone exempt from expansion who is a young RD. Hence why Wilde and a 2nd makes more sense unless Detroit gives up Washington's first.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 6:06 p.m.
#20
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Quoting: Chopper02
Graves was a beast defensively but lacked the offensive side of the game. Girard was already well established and a very good overall player. With Toews came a question of is he more like year two Toews which was great but also a contract year, or year one which was solid, but not great? Or was it option 3, the Barry Trotz system which is great for defensemen and goalies. Now with the year Toews had in Colorado, we know the answer, but we didn't then. I've always liked Toews and I was p****d when the Blues didn't trade for him but instead opted for Krug because we all kind of knew he would be traded, but again there were other variables that played into the decision.

As far as Detroit goes for a pick and prospect? Not sure if there is a trade there because the Blues would need someone exempt from expansion who is a young RD. Hence why Wilde and a 2nd makes more sense unless Detroit gives up Washington's first.


I don’t think I’d label Graves as a beast defensively ever. He gets more kuddos than he deserved because he’s a large physical defensemen but never had a complete game. I don’t think there was any question who was the better defensemen between Graves & Toews. I think some are blowing up on Graves because he looked horrible during the VGK series which isn’t exactly fair but he didn’t look great in my regular season viewings either. Having + skating would help a lot of the gaffes he does mentally but he isn’t even remotely there.
Jun. 16, 2021 at 6:46 p.m.
#21
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Quoting: BStinson
I don’t think I’d label Graves as a beast defensively ever. He gets more kuddos than he deserved because he’s a large physical defensemen but never had a complete game. I don’t think there was any question who was the better defensemen between Graves & Toews. I think some are blowing up on Graves because he looked horrible during the VGK series which isn’t exactly fair but he didn’t look great in my regular season viewings either. Having + skating would help a lot of the gaffes he does mentally but he isn’t even remotely there.


Never said "better defenseman" but Graves was actually a beast defensively last season. Not a better overall defenseman than Toews, but he was great. Again, Colorado thought and hoped Toews would pan out (he did) but didn't need him therefore and Islanders were forced to get rid of Toews. Blues aren't forced in this situation to get rid of Dunn. We saw what Fabbri could do in Detroit when given the opportunity.
Jun. 17, 2021 at 12:28 a.m.
#22
Hello I am a blues f
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Joined: Jun. 2021
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I think we should try and protect blais, I like the kid and trade kyrou instead of Thomas, Thomas is more productive and can play wing or center. Also I love the Clifford/Sanford trade it will help us in the long run.
 
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