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Idc overpay for Marchand

Created by: gmack95
Team: 2021-22 Pittsburgh Penguins
Initial Creation Date: Jun. 29, 2021
Published: Jun. 29, 2021
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Jun. 29, 2021 at 9:24 a.m.
#1
do not Devil my ass
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Devils pass, you likely need to add a 1st or a good prospect to dump MP's cap for Wood in return.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 9:30 a.m.
#2
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No

-Boston
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Jun. 29, 2021 at 9:40 a.m.
#3
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That is an insane underpayment.

Would you take that for Sid? You won't get Marchand for it.
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Jun. 29, 2021 at 9:42 a.m.
#4
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Quoting: ON3M4N
No

-Boston


ummm no penguins
no team is giving up 2 proven good young players (one a 40 goal scorer) and a 1st and 2 2nds for him.
You need to slow your homerism down
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Jun. 29, 2021 at 10:13 a.m.
#5
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Quoting: PaulieWalnuts
Devils pass, you likely need to add a 1st or a good prospect to dump MP's cap for Wood in return.


ahahahahahaah no no no ...... devils take that and run
Jun. 29, 2021 at 10:14 a.m.
#6
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Quoting: Propeller09
That is an insane underpayment.

Would you take that for Sid? You won't get Marchand for it.


don't compare marchand to sid .... you just sound silly if you do
Jun. 29, 2021 at 10:39 a.m.
#7
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Quoting: fil97
ahahahahahaah no no no ...... devils take that and run

No they don’t. MP isn’t that good. Elliotte Friedman said Wood’s price was a 1st + prospect at the deadline just like Blake Coleman last year. A more reasonable deal would be with COL which their fans have okayed. Wood and a 3rd for Graves and Compher
Jun. 29, 2021 at 11:09 a.m.
#8
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Seattle selects teddy bleuger!
Jun. 29, 2021 at 11:36 a.m.
#9
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I don't know it the Bruins would take that trade, but overall I really like this roster. The revamped defense is really good, and I love the additions there. This basically fixes all the issues we have: got more physical on offense, but maintained a lot of speed, would balance out the defense by adding more toughness to the blue line, and brings in the best option at goaltender.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 11:48 a.m.
#10
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Quoting: fil97
don't compare marchand to sid .... you just sound silly if you do


Sorry, I am about to embarass you, but it is what it is.

Since 2017-18
Sid - 257gp 104g 194A 298Pts +18 - Does not kill penalties. 1 top 10 hart, 2 top 10 selke 1.15PPG
Marchand -270gp 214A 341pts +91 2 top 10 Hart, 2 top 10 Selke 1.26PPG


By All means, tell me how Sid should not be compared to Marchand.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 11:50 a.m.
#11
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Quoting: pharrow
ummm no penguins
no team is giving up 2 proven good young players (one a 40 goal scorer) and a 1st and 2 2nds for him.
You need to slow your homerism down


I think you need to slow your biased. Marchand has been pretty much the second best player in the NHL for the last 4 years.
Sid - 257gp 104g 194A 298Pts +18 - Does not kill penalties. 1 top 10 hart, 2 top 10 selke 1.15PPG
Marchand -270gp 214A 341pts +91 2 top 10 Hart, 2 top 10 Selke 1.26PPG
Jun. 29, 2021 at 11:54 a.m.
#12
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Quoting: fil97
don't compare marchand to sid .... you just sound silly if you do


https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-5-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html

sarcasm

Note the SHTOI as well. Only player over 1:00 (1:41) in top 10. First player with more SHTOI is Kopitar at 25th. Lol.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 11:57 a.m.
#13
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Quoting: mattm87
I don't know it the Bruins would take that trade, but overall I really like this roster. The revamped defense is really good, and I love the additions there. This basically fixes all the issues we have: got more physical on offense, but maintained a lot of speed, would balance out the defense by adding more toughness to the blue line, and brings in the best option at goaltender.


The Bruins do not take the deal. Not even close.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 12:53 p.m.
#14
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Quoting: Propeller09
The Bruins do not take the deal. Not even close.


Marchand is insane, definitely close to, if not a top 5 player, but Crosby is better. Marchand is the type of player everyone would want on their team and is super valuable to the Bruins, so I agree we would have to give up more to get him. But Crosby brings so much to the table in terms of elevating other players and overall having more success than Marchand. Not to take anything away from Marchand, I think he deserves to be compared to the best. He's an elite player, one of the best in the NHL, but Crosby is still better.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 1:43 p.m.
#15
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Quoting: mattm87
Marchand is insane, definitely close to, if not a top 5 player, but Crosby is better. Marchand is the type of player everyone would want on their team and is super valuable to the Bruins, so I agree we would have to give up more to get him. But Crosby brings so much to the table in terms of elevating other players and overall having more success than Marchand. Not to take anything away from Marchand, I think he deserves to be compared to the best. He's an elite player, one of the best in the NHL, but Crosby is still better.


I am not sure that is accurate anymore. Sid is really, really good. Marchand does not get enough credit. The amount of energy he uses on the PK is insane.

It's tough to compare because they play different positions, but the other thing to take into account is usually at some point during a game the other team is matching up against Malkin and not Sid. Pick your poison. Marchand is always lined up against the 1st unit.

The Bruins for years would pair Chara against Malkin because of Size. As good as Z was he always struggled with the smaller quick players. not always, I am not saying that.

The other thing to take into account is his contract. You said he is probably a top 5 player in the NHL. In no order - just other guys who could also be called top5
Sid - 8.7M
Geno - 9.5m
McDavid - 12.5
Draisiatl - 8.5
Kane 10.5
Ovi - 9.5
Mckinnon 6.3 (1 year left)
Kucherov 9.5
point 6.7 (1 year left)
Marchand 6.125 (4 years left)
Jun. 29, 2021 at 3:26 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: Propeller09
I am not sure that is accurate anymore. Sid is really, really good. Marchand does not get enough credit. The amount of energy he uses on the PK is insane.

It's tough to compare because they play different positions, but the other thing to take into account is usually at some point during a game the other team is matching up against Malkin and not Sid. Pick your poison. Marchand is always lined up against the 1st unit.

The Bruins for years would pair Chara against Malkin because of Size. As good as Z was he always struggled with the smaller quick players. not always, I am not saying that.

The other thing to take into account is his contract. You said he is probably a top 5 player in the NHL. In no order - just other guys who could also be called top5
Sid - 8.7M
Geno - 9.5m
McDavid - 12.5
Draisiatl - 8.5
Kane 10.5
Ovi - 9.5
Mckinnon 6.3 (1 year left)
Kucherov 9.5
point 6.7 (1 year left)
Marchand 6.125 (4 years left)


I still think that Crosby is the better player, but I 100% agree with your point about the contracts. That's one of the reasons I think a trade for Marchard would have to be insane return because Marchand is paid way less than he should and has years left. There aren't many players like him in the NHL that are physical, but also insanely skilled. Marchand, Tkachuk, Wilson are three that come to mind and although they've made some extremely dirty plays, mostly Wilson, they all are insanely skilled and give so much more than just being physical players. Marchand is the best out of those three, but similar type of players that are hard to come by. Just out of curiosity what do you think the return for Marchand would have to be hypothetically? Obviously the Bruins want to keep him, but I'm not the best at coming up with even trades so am curious. I would imagine it would take 2 very good players, 2 first round picks, and a stud prospect at least, but could be wrong.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 3:40 p.m.
#17
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Quoting: Propeller09
I think you need to slow your biased. Marchand has been pretty much the second best player in the NHL for the last 4 years.
Sid - 257gp 104g 194A 298Pts +18 - Does not kill penalties. 1 top 10 hart, 2 top 10 selke 1.15PPG
Marchand -270gp 214A 341pts +91 2 top 10 Hart, 2 top 10 Selke 1.26PPG


ummm Sid PK when he needs to so I don't know what you are talking about.
I don't know why you are even trying to compare the two. One is the greatest player in a generation. The other is just another guy who played.

Yet somehow you want to justify a 33 year old player is worth a young 40 goal scorer, a young top 4RD who many view as being able to handle a 1RD role, a 1st, and basically 2 nds.

I'm sorry but you aren't getting that kind of return. EVER. Get over it.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 4:06 p.m.
#18
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Edited Jun. 29, 2021 at 4:14 p.m.
Quoting: pharrow
ummm Sid PK when he needs to so I don't know what you are talking about.
I don't know why you are even trying to compare the two. One is the greatest player in a generation. The other is just another guy who played.

Yet somehow you want to justify a 33 year old player is worth a young 40 goal scorer, a young top 4RD who many view as being able to handle a 1RD role, a 1st, and basically 2 nds.

I'm sorry but you aren't getting that kind of return. EVER. Get over it.


Lol.

I find it hard to take you seriously when you are ignoring actual facts.

Sid has averaged 13 s of SHTOI over the last two seasons and 21s over the last decade. I am not saying he isn't good defensively. He is. Very good. He is not as good as Marchand though.
Marchand over that same 10 year period is 1:37 per game. Marchand has 5X the amount of SHTOI.
Those are facts.

Over that same decade - SO GREAT SAMPLE SIZE
Marchand is 8th in scoring and Crosby is 2nd.

Thing is... Crosby levelled off and Marchand got better. If you drop it to 6 years or 427gp (63) and 412gp (87)
Marchand is 4th and Crosby 6th. Facts. These numbers are not debatable.
How about the last three?
Marchand 5th - Crosby 14th

Marchand has factually been a more productive player for the last five. Sid had the 1st five. Again. Facts.

Where Sid is better is elevating the players around him. With that being said, you can't have it both ways. Would Guentzal be as productive if he were playing with someone else? I personally don't think so. Hornqvist, Rust, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis or any of the others in a long line of "really?!?" guys who have career years or Careers because of Sid is my reasoning.



I don't know what you are smoking if you don't think Pitt would make this deal. They would. The Bruins wouldn't. I get you have a biased, but I did not propose this deal, nor do I want to move Marchand for a bunch of potential. I will take the guy who has averaged 1.26ppg over the last three seasons.

Marino isn't as good as you are hyping. He is not Adam Fox. He is fine as a second pairing guy, but clearly showed cracks in the armor as the season continued. If he is one of your top 2 dman, you aren't winning anything.

The fact you called Marchand, just another guy is hilarious and shows your lack of knowledge. He is a Hall of famer. No question.

Guess who has the most SHG over the last 15 years? psst... Brad Marchand. Last 10... Marchand.

GWG over the last 10 years? Ovi, Pacioretty, Marchand.
GWG over the last 6? McDavid, Marchand.

Good effort, bud. Good effort.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 4:29 p.m.
#19
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Quoting: mattm87
I still think that Crosby is the better player, but I 100% agree with your point about the contracts. That's one of the reasons I think a trade for Marchard would have to be insane return because Marchand is paid way less than he should and has years left. There aren't many players like him in the NHL that are physical, but also insanely skilled. Marchand, Tkachuk, Wilson are three that come to mind and although they've made some extremely dirty plays, mostly Wilson, they all are insanely skilled and give so much more than just being physical players. Marchand is the best out of those three, but similar type of players that are hard to come by. Just out of curiosity what do you think the return for Marchand would have to be hypothetically? Obviously the Bruins want to keep him, but I'm not the best at coming up with even trades so am curious. I would imagine it would take 2 very good players, 2 first round picks, and a stud prospect at least, but could be wrong.


They are close, I would probably side with Sid, just because I really do think he makes everyone around him better to a level I have never seen. McDavid doesn't even do that to the same level. I don't think anyone does. It's close though... Closer than most would like to acknowledge.

Return? Honestly pretty close to what Sid would get. That was where this started... and Yes, I think you are right. It would depend on years left and production over the next couple. Now? Yeah, what you said. It would be a haul.
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Jun. 29, 2021 at 4:32 p.m.
#20
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Quoting: Propeller09
Lol.

I find it hard to take you seriously when you are ignoring actual facts.

Sid has averaged 13 s of SHTOI over the last two seasons and 21s over the last decade. I am not saying he isn't good defensively. He is. Very good. He is not as good as Marchand though.
Marchand over that same 10 year period is 1:37 per game. Marchand has 5X the amount of SHTOI.
Those are facts.

Over that same decade - SO GREAT SAMPLE SIZE
Marchand is 8th in scoring and Crosby is 2nd.

Thing is... Crosby levelled off and Marchand got better. If you drop it to 6 years or 427gp (63) and 412gp (87)
Marchand is 4th and Crosby 6th. Facts. These numbers are not debatable.
How about the last three?
Marchand 5th - Crosby 14th

Marchand has factually been a more productive player for the last five. Sid had the 1st five. Again. Facts.

Where Sid is better is elevating the players around him. With that being said, you can't have it both ways. Would Guentzal be as productive if he were playing with someone else? I personally don't think so. Hornqvist, Rust, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis or any of the others in a long line of "really?!?" guys who have career years or Careers because of Sid is my reasoning.



I don't know what you are smoking if you don't think Pitt would make this deal. They would. The Bruins wouldn't. I get you have a biased, but I did not propose this deal, nor do I want to move Marchand for a bunch of potential. I will take the guy who has averaged 1.26ppg over the last three seasons.

Marino isn't as good as you are hyping. He is not Adam Fox. He is fine as a second pairing guy, but clearly showed cracks in the armor as the season continued. If he is one of your top 2 dman, you aren't winning anything.

The fact you called Marchand, just another guy is hilarious and shows your lack of knowledge. He is a Hall of famer. No question.

Guess who has the most SHG over the last 15 years? psst... Brad Marchand. Last 10... Marchand.

GWG over the last 10 years? Ovi, Pacioretty, Marchand.
GWG over the last 6? McDavid, Marchand.

Good effort, bud. Good effort.


I agree that Crosby is the better player. My favorite player and best player in a generation. I also do agree that as Penguins fan I would 100% definitely take that trade for Marchand and so would our management. That is an absolute steal for us. Crosby and Marchand on the same line would easily be the best line in hockey, maybe one of the best in history. I love Guentzel and he's been one of my favorite players since he entered the league, and would prefer not to trade him. I love Marino too, but he did regress a lot this season. The thing here is that Marchand is an extremely skilled and unique player that is easily top 10 in the league, and if this trade was offered, which I don't think it would, they would have to accept. The first round pick dosen't matter to me much because at this point they've passed their chance to avoid a complete rebuild at some point in the future and are in win now mode, so why not trade that pick away. If management saw this trade they would be all over it because more physicality is exactly what we need. Hextall said that he wants bigger physical players that also are skilled and fast, but acknowledged that there aren't many in the league and they are extremely hard to find. Marchand is the absolute best of the best when it comes to players who are considered very physical, but that are also skilled. Tkachuk and Wilson are also similar, but Marchand is the best in that category.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 5:30 p.m.
#21
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Quoting: Propeller09
Lol.

I find it hard to take you seriously when you are ignoring actual facts.

Sid has averaged 13 s of SHTOI over the last two seasons and 21s over the last decade. I am not saying he isn't good defensively. He is. Very good. He is not as good as Marchand though.
Marchand over that same 10 year period is 1:37 per game. Marchand has 5X the amount of SHTOI.
Those are facts.

Over that same decade - SO GREAT SAMPLE SIZE
Marchand is 8th in scoring and Crosby is 2nd.

Thing is... Crosby levelled off and Marchand got better. If you drop it to 6 years or 427gp (63) and 412gp (87)
Marchand is 4th and Crosby 6th. Facts. These numbers are not debatable.
How about the last three?
Marchand 5th - Crosby 14th

Marchand has factually been a more productive player for the last five. Sid had the 1st five. Again. Facts.

Where Sid is better is elevating the players around him. With that being said, you can't have it both ways. Would Guentzal be as productive if he were playing with someone else? I personally don't think so. Hornqvist, Rust, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis or any of the others in a long line of "really?!?" guys who have career years or Careers because of Sid is my reasoning.



I don't know what you are smoking if you don't think Pitt would make this deal. They would. The Bruins wouldn't. I get you have a biased, but I did not propose this deal, nor do I want to move Marchand for a bunch of potential. I will take the guy who has averaged 1.26ppg over the last three seasons.

Marino isn't as good as you are hyping. He is not Adam Fox. He is fine as a second pairing guy, but clearly showed cracks in the armor as the season continued. If he is one of your top 2 dman, you aren't winning anything.

The fact you called Marchand, just another guy is hilarious and shows your lack of knowledge. He is a Hall of famer. No question.

Guess who has the most SHG over the last 15 years? psst... Brad Marchand. Last 10... Marchand.

GWG over the last 10 years? Ovi, Pacioretty, Marchand.
GWG over the last 6? McDavid, Marchand.

Good effort, bud. Good effort.


you aren't getting a 26 year old 40 goal scorer for a 33 year old player
# facts.

Why you keep trying to drag crosby in this as if you have kind of winning argument that Marchand is a better player is laughable.
Jun. 29, 2021 at 9:35 p.m.
#22
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Quoting: pharrow
you aren't getting a 26 year old 40 goal scorer for a 33 year old player
# facts.

Why you keep trying to drag crosby in this as if you have kind of winning argument that Marchand is a better player is laughable.


Aahahahahaha. You're funny.
Jun. 30, 2021 at 4:46 a.m.
#23
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Quoting: Propeller09
Sorry, I am about to embarass you, but it is what it is.

Since 2017-18
Sid - 257gp 104g 194A 298Pts +18 - Does not kill penalties. 1 top 10 hart, 2 top 10 selke 1.15PPG
Marchand -270gp 214A 341pts +91 2 top 10 Hart, 2 top 10 Selke 1.26PPG


By All means, tell me how Sid should not be compared to Marchand.



1. sid doesn't kill penalties cuz sully doesn't want him to kill them... he could and he would be unreal. (and he still does occasionally in key moments)
2. if you just base a player on points you don't now a thing about hockey
3. marchand plays with bergeron and pasternak while sid plays with whomever and makes them great players. (if you put sid on a line of rantanen and mackinnon sid would have 8 times the points marchand has in the past years)
4. they have one year difference and look at the career stats....... not even close in any of them (while sid being one of the best two way guys in the league)
5. if you need to win one game for your life today the first guy you pick is sid over everybody. probably even over mcdavid (debatable) cuz he still didn't win anything.

i'm sorry you embarrassed yourself..... you are comparing a goat to a real good player.... but you sound ridiculous if you do it.... can't compare brady to a guy like rivers you just can't
Jun. 30, 2021 at 8:43 a.m.
#24
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Quoting: fil97
1. sid doesn't kill penalties cuz sully doesn't want him to kill them... he could and he would be unreal. (and he still does occasionally in key moments)
2. if you just base a player on points you don't now a thing about hockey
3. marchand plays with bergeron and pasternak while sid plays with whomever and makes them great players. (if you put sid on a line of rantanen and mackinnon sid would have 8 times the points marchand has in the past years)
4. they have one year difference and look at the career stats....... not even close in any of them (while sid being one of the best two way guys in the league)
5. if you need to win one game for your life today the first guy you pick is sid over everybody. probably even over mcdavid (debatable) cuz he still didn't win anything.

i'm sorry you embarrassed yourself..... you are comparing a goat to a real good player.... but you sound ridiculous if you do it.... can't compare brady to a guy like rivers you just can't


It was not I. Again, it was you.
1) Sid's career SHTOI per game is :21s - So not just "Sully" It's a choice to have him use his energy in other aspects of the game. Look at the splits from Julien to Cassidy for Bergeron and Marchand Zone starts. It's not a coincidence that Their offensive numbers sky rocketed under Cassidy. (40/60 to 60/40).
2)I didn't base anything just on points, but your attempted points (3&4) are solely about points, and about how Sid "would" have more if he played with better players. Yet, some are arguing that Guentzal straight up couldn't return Marchand because he is 26 and a 40 goal scorer. Nice Strawman & can't have it both ways.
3) That is not necessarily true and there is no way to prove it. Again, Nice strawman. If Marchand played with those two, he would have 9 times as many points! see how dumb that is? Also you are ignoring the fact that Sid also played with Malkin, or more specifically Sid was not always paired against the other team's top pairing D.
4) Without a doubt Sid was a better player from Day 1. As I said, first 5-6 years clearly favored Sid. Last 5-6 are Marchand.
5) I literally never said otherwise. My entire argument is that they are comparable in trade value now. Not a career or lifetime achievement award.


By writing what you did, you clearly didn't actually read anything I wrote. Yes, Sid is better overall. Marchand's value has never been higher whereas Sid's has been higher. They are comparable players at this point in their career. That is all.
Jun. 30, 2021 at 9:26 a.m.
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Quoting: Propeller09
It was not I. Again, it was you.
1) Sid's career SHTOI per game is :21s - So not just "Sully" It's a choice to have him use his energy in other aspects of the game. Look at the splits from Julien to Cassidy for Bergeron and Marchand Zone starts. It's not a coincidence that Their offensive numbers sky rocketed under Cassidy. (40/60 to 60/40).
2)I didn't base anything just on points, but your attempted points (3&4) are solely about points, and about how Sid "would" have more if he played with better players. Yet, some are arguing that Guentzal straight up couldn't return Marchand because he is 26 and a 40 goal scorer. Nice Strawman & can't have it both ways.
3) That is not necessarily true and there is no way to prove it. Again, Nice strawman. If Marchand played with those two, he would have 9 times as many points! see how dumb that is? Also you are ignoring the fact that Sid also played with Malkin, or more specifically Sid was not always paired against the other team's top pairing D.
4) Without a doubt Sid was a better player from Day 1. As I said, first 5-6 years clearly favored Sid. Last 5-6 are Marchand.
5) I literally never said otherwise. My entire argument is that they are comparable in trade value now. Not a career or lifetime achievement award.


By writing what you did, you clearly didn't actually read anything I wrote. Yes, Sid is better overall. Marchand's value has never been higher whereas Sid's has been higher. They are comparable players at this point in their career. That is all.






I don't agree... sid is just on another planet... marchand is one of the best players of the planet for sure... but sid is in a category of him lemieux and gretzky period.... he is just one of the best things you will ever see in hockey
 
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