Sack kicking the off season

Representing the 505

Joined: Sep. 2020

Posts: 1,849

Likes: 1,023

My $.02:

It's pretty risky to ask a rookie to take over a 2C role but at least Naz would be there to move back up if it didn't work out. I like the Hall idea although I'm not sure he'd take that big a pay cut. That being said, he himself has said he doesn't want to be "the guy" so he should expect to be paid more like a role-player. He'd be on a team with a better chance to win a Cup than almost anywhere else so I expect Joe to circle back around with Hall once FA opens, assuming he doesn't re-sign with Boston. It's also good to send Bura out since he isn't in the plan after this season; the price could be right but CBJ probably wants C's more than anything else (outside of Tampa, who doesn't?). You got the FA prices about right for the Avs guys. Overall, I like what you did and it's within the realm of possibility - that makes you a CF unicorn!

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 9:37 a.m.

#3

rpain

Joined: Aug. 2019

Posts: 1,548

Likes: 838

I think that's a good one from the OIlers side. Good options at 2LD and 3C for a 2nd round pick.

Anus_McLeod, kawhislaugh and GermanGretzky liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 9:38 a.m.

#4

Representing the 505

Joined: Sep. 2020

Posts: 1,849

Likes: 1,023

Quoting: ArakinSkywalker

I don't like the trade, I feel you're just giving away kaut in it, and undervaluing burky. We moved a 2nd and a 3rd for him i think and he's doubled his value since coming in. So him alone would fetch that if not more, that's the last pick this year in a weak draft.

Well, you're sort of renting CBJ's cap space so you can re-sign Saad and get Hall. Bura is good but I'm not sure you'll get much more than that for him.

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 9:44 a.m.

#5

Thread Starter

Joined: Apr. 2020

Posts: 1,932

Likes: 1,567

Quoting: ArakinSkywalker

I don't like the trade, I feel you're just giving away kaut in it, and undervaluing burky. We moved a 2nd and a 3rd for him i think and he's doubled his value since coming in. So him alone would fetch that if not more, that's the last pick this year in a weak draft.

I wanted to do the Toronto first but settled on TB. I'd push for the higher pick but would ultimately do the later if necessary.

And yeah, I didn't assign Kaut much value. I'm not sure he has that much value at this point. I think he could be a decent role player, but top six seems like a long shot.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 9:47 a.m.

#6

ArakinSkywalker

Dr.

Joined: May 2019

Posts: 1,677

Likes: 664

Quoting: Anus_McLeod

I wanted to do the Toronto first but settled on TB. I'd push for the higher pick but would ultimately do the later if necessary.

And yeah, I didn't assign Kaut much value. I'm not sure he has that much value at this point. I think he could be a decent role player, but top six seems like a long shot.

Yeah i get what you're saying, i see Kaut similar to the role nichuskin has taken on for us. I'd really like to see the third line of him jost and nichuskin. I think if he bought in to playing a more defensive aspect those too big body wings would be a solid defensive line.

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 9:59 a.m.

#7

Joined: Aug. 2020

Posts: 6,149

Likes: 3,854

Quoting: NMAvsFan

Well, you're sort of renting CBJ's cap space so you can re-sign Saad and get Hall. Bura is good but I'm not sure you'll get much more than that for him.

20 goal scorers don’t grow on trees. Burakovsky is easily worth that package from CBJ minus Kaut and the pick.

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 10:12 a.m.

#8

Buffalojonny

Joined: May 2021

Posts: 305

Likes: 120

I like it, nicely done!

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 10:17 a.m.

#9

Thread Starter

Joined: Apr. 2020

Posts: 1,932

Likes: 1,567

Quoting: Xqb15a

20 goal scorers don’t grow on trees. Burakovsky is easily worth that package from CBJ minus Kaut and the pick.

I'm not sure about that. If Burakovsky had term then I'd agree, but he's on an expiring deal.

Arvidsson brought a 2nd and a 3rd, but he has term. Colorado got Saad for Zadorov. I had a hard time justifying a first unless the Avs added. That said, I think I should have at least done the Toronto first, as this is essentially a high second.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 10:58 a.m.

#10

Joined: Aug. 2020

Posts: 6,149

Likes: 3,854

Quoting: Anus_McLeod

I'm not sure about that. If Burakovsky had term then I'd agree, but he's on an expiring deal.

Arvidsson brought a 2nd and a 3rd, but he has term. Colorado got Saad for Zadorov. I had a hard time justifying a first unless the Avs added. That said, I think I should have at least done the Toronto first, as this is essentially a high second.

Quoting: Anus_McLeod

I'm not sure about that. If Burakovsky had term then I'd agree, but he's on an expiring deal.

Arvidsson brought a 2nd and a 3rd, but he has term. Colorado got Saad for Zadorov. I had a hard time justifying a first unless the Avs added. That said, I think I should have at least done the Toronto first, as this is essentially a high second.

Arvidsson has been not been good the last 2 years and has been significantly outperformed by Burakovsky he is also a shrimp and 2 yrs older than Burakovsky. I wouldn’t use Saad as a comparable because Saad was making $6M and Sakic took Bowman to the wood shed. If you can’t get a 1st rd pick for a 26yr old winger who has good metrics and is scoring 20 goals you need to quit as a gm. How many teams would kill to have Burakovsky? You don’t think Edmonton would part with a 1st to drop him in next to McDavid?

Jul. 9, 2021 at 11:11 a.m.

#11

Thread Starter

Joined: Apr. 2020

Posts: 1,932

Likes: 1,567

Quoting: Xqb15a

Arvidsson has been not been good the last 2 years and has been significantly outperformed by Burakovsky he is also a shrimp and 2 yrs older than Burakovsky. I wouldn’t use Saad as a comparable because Saad was making $6M and Sakic took Bowman to the wood shed. If you can’t get a 1st rd pick for a 26yr old winger who has good metrics and is scoring 20 goals you need to quit as a gm. How many teams would kill to have Burakovsky? You don’t think Edmonton would part with a 1st to drop him in next to McDavid?

Bottom line for me is that the off season trades haven't been yielding a huge return when there is a significant cap hit involved. I'm not sure Edmonton does that trade, as their weakness is not goal scoring. Maybe though. The BJs were near the bottom of the barrel in goals for, which is why I picked them.

Perhaps you can adjust to the Leafs pick and take out the 5th from Colorado. I don't think Burakovsky gets what others think. If he does though, then I'm even more inclined to move him.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 12:04 p.m.

#12

Joined: Aug. 2020

Posts: 6,149

Likes: 3,854

Quoting: Anus_McLeod

Bottom line for me is that the off season trades haven't been yielding a huge return when there is a significant cap hit involved. I'm not sure Edmonton does that trade, as their weakness is not goal scoring. Maybe though. The BJs were near the bottom of the barrel in goals for, which is why I picked them.

Perhaps you can adjust to the Leafs pick and take out the 5th from Colorado. I don't think Burakovsky gets what others think. If he does though, then I'm even more inclined to move him.

EDM problem is goal scoring though, in that nobody not named Draisitl or McDavid scores. I think you are trying to draw correlations that don’t exist. NSH had to make some XD decisions and Arvidsson has had 2 down years. CHI, needed cap space and defense and they were dealing him into not only a flat cap environment but a less than 82 games season. Neither team was making a trade from a position of strength, the Avs have zero reason to move Burakovsky. Personally I think it is an awful trade proposal. A 20 goal scorer, recent 1st rd pick on an ELC, and a 5th rd pick, for an end of the road 1st and 3rd in an immensely shallow draft. Literally trading immediate help for maybe help in 3 years. No bueno my friend. But that’s my take.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 12:07 p.m.

#13

Representing the 505

Joined: Sep. 2020

Posts: 1,849

Likes: 1,023

Quoting: Xqb15a

20 goal scorers don’t grow on trees. Burakovsky is easily worth that package from CBJ minus Kaut and the pick.

True enough but gauging player value can be really tough, especially in a flat cap environment. It all comes back to cap space and who you really want on the team. I look at it as though it were a trade:

To Avs: Saad, Hall TBL 1st and TBL 3rd
To CBJ: Bura, Kaut, 5th
To Seattle: Donny

That looks like a pretty good trade overall; Saad and Hall are both 20 goal guys plus you get the low 1st which, this year, could net you a good player who just happened to fall due to circumstances. It's basically like getting a 2nd you traded in the Toews deal back. Maybe you take out Kaut and make the 5th a 3rd but if it takes Kaut (whom the Avs don't really seem too interesting in anyhow) to get a deal like that done, I'd probably do it.

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 12:12 p.m.

#14

GermanGretzky

Oilers Fan

Joined: May 2021

Posts: 45

Likes: 11

Quoting: Anus_McLeod

Bottom line for me is that the off season trades haven't been yielding a huge return when there is a significant cap hit involved. I'm not sure Edmonton does that trade, as their weakness is not goal scoring. Maybe though. The BJs were near the bottom of the barrel in goals for, which is why I picked them.

Perhaps you can adjust to the Leafs pick and take out the 5th from Colorado. I don't think Burakovsky gets what others think. If he does though, then I'm even more inclined to move him.

First of all, I like what you did here and especially the Oilers trade (actually it favors EDM a bit, but I'm fine with that

). It's all reasonable and mostly fair.

Actually, the Oilers are looking for secondary scoring behind McDavid and Draisaitl, so Burakovsky would make a lot of sense as a winger for McDavid. Considering you probably have to pay Hyman or Saad 5+ Mio, it would be a good fit salary cap-wise. But because he's a UFA next year I don't see EDM (or anyone for that matter) paying that much for him. In EDM's case, you probably don't spend the assets, when you can sign a UFA.
I think Burakovsky is a streaky scorer (correct me if I'm wrong) and his defensive game isn't that good. But I have to admit that I don't know him that good, so what kind of a player is he?

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 12:24 p.m.

#15

Thread Starter

Joined: Apr. 2020

Posts: 1,932

Likes: 1,567

Quoting: GermanGretzky

First of all, I like what you did here and especially the Oilers trade (actually it favors EDM a bit, but I'm fine with that

). It's all reasonable and mostly fair.

Actually, the Oilers are looking for secondary scoring behind McDavid and Draisaitl, so Burakovsky would make a lot of sense as a winger for McDavid. Considering you probably have to pay Hyman or Saad 5+ Mio, it would be a good fit salary cap-wise. But because he's a UFA next year I don't see EDM (or anyone for that matter) paying that much for him. In EDM's case, you probably don't spend the assets, when you can sign a UFA.
I think Burakovsky is a streaky scorer (correct me if I'm wrong) and his defensive game isn't that good. But I have to admit that I don't know him that good, so what kind of a player is he?

He is streaky but he's not bad at all defensively. The only real knock is that he lacks grit or toughness, but he's a good player that can improve the top 6 of the majority of teams. I just see him as expendable if the Avs can land a guy like Hall.

GermanGretzky liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 1:08 p.m.

#16

Joined: Aug. 2020

Posts: 6,149

Likes: 3,854

Quoting: NMAvsFan

True enough but gauging player value can be really tough, especially in a flat cap environment. It all comes back to cap space and who you really want on the team. I look at it as though it were a trade:

To Avs: Saad, Hall TBL 1st and TBL 3rd
To CBJ: Bura, Kaut, 5th
To Seattle: Donny

That looks like a pretty good trade overall; Saad and Hall are both 20 goal guys plus you get the low 1st which, this year, could net you a good player who just happened to fall due to circumstances. It's basically like getting a 2nd you traded in the Toews deal back. Maybe you take out Kaut and make the 5th a 3rd but if it takes Kaut (whom the Avs don't really seem too interesting in anyhow) to get a deal like that done, I'd probably do it.

That’s justifying a bad trade with a FA signings. That’s not how being a good gm works. Not at all.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 1:26 p.m.

#17

Representing the 505

Joined: Sep. 2020

Posts: 1,849

Likes: 1,023

Quoting: Xqb15a

That’s justifying a bad trade with a FA signings. That’s not how being a good gm works. Not at all.

How is that a bad trade? Is the team not better now?

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 1:32 p.m.

#18

Thread Starter

Joined: Apr. 2020

Posts: 1,932

Likes: 1,567

Quoting: NMAvsFan

How is that a bad trade? Is the team not better now?

Different circumstances, but Sakic clearly lost the Soderberg trade so he could acquire the pick needed to get Burakovsky. I'm more about the big picture than winning individual trades.

That said, if Xqb15a is right and Colorado can do better then great! Trade Burky for a better pick or keep Kaut or whatever. You would hope Joe does his diligence and gets the best return possible. At the end of the day it's mostly about icing the best team you possibly can though.

NMAvsFan liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 1:37 p.m.

#19

Representing the 505

Joined: Sep. 2020

Posts: 1,849

Likes: 1,023

Quoting: Anus_McLeod

Different circumstances, but Sakic clearly lost the Soderberg trade so he could acquire the pick needed to get Burakovsky. I'm more about the big picture than winning individual trades.

That said, if Xqb15a is right and Colorado can do better then great! Trade Burky for a better pick or keep Kaut or whatever. You would hope Joe does his diligence and gets the best return possible. At the end of the day it's mostly about icing the best team you possibly can though.

Exactly - I think you have to look at the big picture which is, as you say, making the team the best it can be. The Avs are in a position right now where they know they need some better pieces and they're going to have to use assets to get them. Joe will do his best to get good value in every individual deal but he's also got to have the overall vision of what the team should look like to take the next step. Obviously, you can't give away the farm but "losing" one deal that leads to the team being much better is, to turn a phrase, pound wise, penny foolish.

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 2:26 p.m.

#20

Joined: Aug. 2020

Posts: 6,149

Likes: 3,854

Quoting: NMAvsFan

How is that a bad trade? Is the team not better now?

You’re justifying trading a 20 goal scorer, former 1st rd pick still on an elc and a 5th for in all honesty 2 throw away picks. You don’t get to justify making a bad trade by saying well we made that bad trade and used the cap space to justify it. You want to piss off ownership, that’s a great way of doing it.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 2:35 p.m.

#21

Joined: Aug. 2020

Posts: 6,149

Likes: 3,854

Quoting: Anus_McLeod

Different circumstances, but Sakic clearly lost the Soderberg trade so he could acquire the pick needed to get Burakovsky. I'm more about the big picture than winning individual trades.

That said, if Xqb15a is right and Colorado can do better then great! Trade Burky for a better pick or keep Kaut or whatever. You would hope Joe does his diligence and gets the best return possible. At the end of the day it's mostly about icing the best team you possibly can though.

The only time you get to use big picture is if you win the cup, otherwise all moves are very fairly open to scrutiny. Throwing away cheaper assets, multiple cheaper assets, especially since I would argue Burakovsky is worth every bit what Saad was given especially if you believe Saad’s shooting percentage 22.1% or 50% higher then his next best season isn’t repeatable.

Good conversation boys.

Anus_McLeod liked this.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 2:38 p.m.

#22

Thread Starter

Joined: Apr. 2020

Posts: 1,932

Likes: 1,567

Quoting: Xqb15a

You’re justifying trading a 20 goal scorer, former 1st rd pick still on an elc and a 5th for in all honesty 2 throw away picks. You don’t get to justify making a bad trade by saying well we made that bad trade and used the cap space to justify it. You want to piss off ownership, that’s a great way of doing it.

Vegas ownership was fine giving away Schmidt, who was coming off three very good seasons, for nothing because they came out the other end as a better team.

Like I said, I hope they can get more. But they upgrade at the position and gained futures. The trade may not be the best, but the off season as a whole looks damn good.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 2:48 p.m.

#23

Thread Starter

Joined: Apr. 2020

Posts: 1,932

Likes: 1,567

Quoting: Xqb15a

The only time you get to use big picture is if you win the cup, otherwise all moves are very fairly open to scrutiny. Throwing away cheaper assets, multiple cheaper assets, especially since I would argue Burakovsky is worth every bit what Saad was given especially if you believe Saad’s shooting percentage 22.1% or 50% higher then his next best season isn’t repeatable.

Good conversation boys.

Enjoying the conversation as well.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 5:30 p.m.

#24

Joined: Aug. 2020

Posts: 6,149

Likes: 3,854

Quoting: Anus_McLeod

Vegas ownership was fine giving away Schmidt, who was coming off three very good seasons, for nothing because they came out the other end as a better team.

Like I said, I hope they can get more. But they upgrade at the position and gained futures. The trade may not be the best, but the off season as a whole looks damn good.

Schmidt showed how good or how bad he actually was, that being said I’d keep Burakovsky and let Saad walk and keep the assets, because you know all Avs fan writing off Kaut just means he will be a stud next year.

Jul. 9, 2021 at 6:50 p.m.

#25