Forums/Armchair-GM

The Most Painful Part

Created by: NickC1988
Initial Creation Date: Oct. 16, 2021
Published: Oct. 16, 2021
Team: 2021-22 Chicago Blackhawks
Team Explanation
The most painful part of it all, is that a large majority of users on this site realized the below moves would backfire. Yes, we are 3 games in. Yes, St. Louis was last in the league in January and won the cup the same season (I'd love to have the Blackhawks shove this post down my throat come playoffs). I get it. Remember my introductory sentence, i'll tie back into it in my closing statements.

1. What the F was the point of this? Another tweener forward at a ridiculous cap hit that has no strength on the puck or provides any significance. Forget this trade, keep Suter.

2. Khaira never signs, keep Kampf.

3. Take out the 2021 1st Columbus sent back, and that package lands Werenski. (I understand CBJ doesn't want to move him, but 2 1sts and Boqvist is a lot. Hell, I'd be open to adding in that situation if it means pulling Werenski off).

4. Seattle is loaded on the back end, but could use some forward depth. Strome gets a fresh start on a team likely to help him find his game, hawks get a D man at an affordable price.

5. This is what replaces the Tampa trade. Isles get a PK D and get rid of useless cap for a 2nd. Nobody gets burned. Hawks could retain a little if necessary.

6. There is cap left over for adds as needed, and this team looks much better in all aspects. Probably need a right defenseman, but again, minor detail compared to the point of this post.

The most painful part of it all, is that the NHL is a ridiculous boys club, where teams rarely hire external candidates with different backgrounds/viewpoints. Hell, they don't even post front office job postings on their careers page. I've looked for years, it's depressing. It doesn't take an experienced hockey ops resume to make good decisions, and as we are seeing with the Blackhawks here, the only decisions being made are bad ones. It's very tough to see such bad decisions made year after year with no repercussions and losing seasons.

I know a lot of others will relate to this post. It's not just the Blackhawks. I would say there are quite a few intelligent hockey minds on this site daily asking the right questions, contributing to positive discussions, and making fair/understandable predictions/evaluations of players and teams. I'm not sure I can say the same about a lot of organizations in the NHL.
Trades
1.
CHI
  1. Seabrook, Brent
TBL
  1. Johnson, Tyler
  2. 2023 2nd round pick (TBL)
2.
CHI
    Not signed.
    EDM
    1. Khaira, Jujhar
    3.
    CHI
    1. Werenski, Zachary
    CBJ
    1. Jones, Seth
    4.
    CHI
    1. Soucy, Carson
    SEA
    1. Strome, Dylan
    5.
    CHI
    1. Komarov, Leo
    2. 2023 2nd round pick (NYI)
    NYI
    1. De Haan, Calvin
    6.
    CHI
    1. Kämpf, David
    TOR
      Re-signed
      7.
      CHI
      1. Suter, Pius
      DET
        Re-signed
        Retained Salary Transactions
        • Olli Määttä: $750,108 (18%)
        Buried
        • Brett Connolly: $2,375,000 ($3,500,000)
        DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
        2022
        CHI
        EDM
        TOR
        VGK
        CHI
        CHI
        CBJ
        CHI
        2023
        CHI
        CHI
        NYI
        CHI
        CHI
        CHI
        CHI
        CHI
        2024
        CHI
        CHI
        CHI
        CHI
        CHI
        CHI
        CHI
        ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
        23$81,500,000$73,829,214$452,439$3,415,000$7,670,786
        Left WingCenterRight Wing
        CHI
        DeBrincat, Alex
        $6,400,000
        LW, RW
        RFA - 2
        CHI
        Toews, Jonathan
        $10,500,000
        C
        NMC
        UFA - 2
        CHI
        Kane, Patrick
        $10,500,000
        RW
        NMC
        UFA - 2
        CHI
        Kubalik, Dominik
        $3,700,000
        LW, RW
        RFA - 1
        CHI
        Dach, Kirby
        $925,000
        C, RW
        RFA - 1
        CHI
        Hagel, Brandon
        $1,500,000
        LW
        RFA - 3
        CHI
        Borgström, Henrik
        $1,000,000
        C
        RFA - 2
        DET
        Suter, Pius
        $3,250,000
        C, LW
        UFA - 2
        CHI
        Gaudette, Adam
        $997,500
        C
        RFA - 1
        CHI
        Kurashev, Philipp
        $842,500
        LW, RW
        RFA - 1
        TOR
        Kämpf, David
        $1,500,000
        C, RW
        UFA - 2
        CHI
        Carpenter, Ryan
        $1,000,000
        RW, C
        UFA - 1
        Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
        CBJ
        Werenski, Zachary
        $5,000,000
        LD
        UFA - 1
        CHI
        Murphy, Connor
        $3,850,000
        RD
        UFA - 1
        CHI
        Fleury, Marc-André
        $7,000,000
        G
        NTC
        UFA - 1
        CHI
        McCabe, Jake
        $4,000,000
        LD
        NTC
        UFA - 4
        CHI
        Mitchell, Ian
        $925,000
        RD
        RFA - 2
        CHI
        Lankinen, Kevin
        $800,000
        G
        UFA - 1
        SEA
        Soucy, Carson
        $2,750,000
        LD
        UFA - 2
        CHI
        Stillman, Riley
        $1,350,000
        LD
        RFA - 3
        ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
        CHI
        Gustafsson, Erik
        $800,000
        LD/RD
        UFA - 1
        TBL
        Seabrook, Brent
        $6,875,000
        RD
        NMC
        UFA - 3
        CHI
        Entwistle, Mackenzie
        $811,667
        C
        RFA - 1
        CHI
        Shaw, Andrew
        $3,900,000
        C, RW
        UFA - 1
        CHI
        Jones, Caleb
        $850,000
        LD
        RFA - 1

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        Oct. 16 at 10:03 p.m.
        #1
        Joined: Jan. 2017
        Posts: 3,877
        Likes: 1,855
        Sad truth bud. And we just have to sit back and watch it unfold.
        ChiHawk liked this.
        Oct. 16 at 10:04 p.m.
        #2
        Thread Starter
        Chicago
        Joined: Jun. 2015
        Posts: 5,596
        Likes: 1,864
        Quoting: HOCKEYBOY448
        Sad truth bud. And we just have to sit back and watch it unfold.


        It's quite depressing. Could you imagine how much more competitive and fun to watch this league could be if there were more forward-thinking minds in the game? It's insane.
        HOCKEYBOY448 and ChiHawk liked this.
        Oct. 16 at 10:06 p.m.
        #3
        Joined: Jan. 2017
        Posts: 3,877
        Likes: 1,855
        Quoting: NickC1988
        It's quite depressing. Could you imagine how much more competitive and fun to watch this league could be if there were more forward-thinking minds in the game? It's insane.


        Apparently that’s dangerous and threatens the culture. The entire damn thing is an oxymoron. They talk about being progressive, but do damn well to make sure it never happens.
        NickC1988 liked this.
        Oct. 16 at 10:06 p.m.
        #4
        Thread Starter
        Chicago
        Joined: Jun. 2015
        Posts: 5,596
        Likes: 1,864
        Quoting: HOCKEYBOY448
        Apparently that’s dangerous and threatens the culture. The entire damn thing is an oxymoron. They talk about being progressive, but do damn well to make sure it never happens.


        Spot on brother.
        HOCKEYBOY448 liked this.
        Oct. 16 at 10:13 p.m.
        #5
        Banned
        Joined: Jun. 2016
        Posts: 33,053
        Likes: 8,998
        laugh laugh Seth Jones didn't want to stay in Columbus anymore, And fat chance of you getting Werenski he wouldn't commit long term with the Hawks. And Tyler Johnson Tampa can't afford him you snooze you lose same with Pius Suter Bowman didn't sign him he became a UFA and he's ours for 2 years.
        WhereArtTLuongo liked this.
        Oct. 16 at 10:17 p.m.
        #6
        LongtimeLeafsufferer
        Joined: Jul. 2015
        Posts: 40,858
        Likes: 12,366
        From an outside, the Hawks managed their personnel and cap quite well for years. But really some awful decisions lately has put the team in cap and personnel peril for maybe years to come.
        As a Leaf fan, I know that bad decisions by a GM (s)can absolute screw the team for years, even a decade or more.
        ChiHawk and Eli liked this.
        Oct. 16 at 10:33 p.m.
        #7
        Nah.
        Joined: Sep. 2020
        Posts: 1,250
        Likes: 823
        Edited Oct. 17 at 12:10 a.m.
        From CBJ’s perspective, they were going to ride out Werenski until he told them he wanted out. I.e. he wouldn’t have been available this past offseason absent a big overpay. If he really did follow through on the “I want to go home to DET” rumors, he would have been a TDL or off-season move.

        And I get it when it comes to the general frustration of front-office league makeup. On one end, you will never see an outright job posting on these positions because the qualifications to handle them go far beyond what anyone in these boards can fathom. It’s easy to post ACGM’s and play MMQB, so to speak, it’s much more difficult to handle the personalities and bureaucracy behind the scenes - quite similar to being a politician, except it isn’t a matter of just casting single votes.

        These GM jobs are so exclusive because there is only 32 of them in the world, and owners want people with the experience already; so, either people who have worked NHL front offices already, or former players. And when they make these hires, money drives everything - I think we often overestimate the amount of involvement team owners have. Unless you are, say, the Jerry Jones’ of the world, most of them just want to hire someone who will take the reins on the team, and until the bottom-line starts hurting, or they otherwise feel pressure mounting to the point of being unable to ignore it, most will let it ride. Coming from a CBJ fan, this has largely been how the team has been run, for better (Jarmo and JD) and worse (basically every other front office hire ever).

        That being said, it’s difficult for me to really accord whatever is going on in CHI’s office. Bowman creates a dynasty and, as is inevitable, it ended due to age and expense. He finally makes the right move, admits to a rebuild, but then pivots to a bunch of win-now trades (Jones, Flower, releasing an affordable and productive Suter). Perhaps it’s because of, shall we say, attention off-ice with the Blackhawks, but it felt like Bowman swung hard for the fence on moves that, by his estimation, will either (a) lead to wins and make him look like a genius; or, (b) be the next guy’s problem.

        Maybe CHI ownership has an astounding amount of faith in Bowman, or maybe they are doing the whole “3D chess” thing we often joke about. But if I were ownership, I would have reined in some of these moves. Then again, like I said above, most of these guys may very well just not be as involved in team construction as a bunch of Very Online hockey nerds like us.

        And, FWIW, most of these critiques are not just CHI, but could apply to many other teams at one time or another.




        Sorry for the short novel. Damn, I didn’t realize I had written this much.
        HockeyFan989 and Eli liked this.
        Oct. 16 at 10:40 p.m.
        #8
        Ragsandbluesfan
        Joined: Nov. 2017
        Posts: 18,742
        Likes: 5,310
        I agree but NO CHANCE the jackets move Werenski
        Eli liked this.
        Oct. 17 at 1:17 a.m.
        #9
        Joined: Apr. 2017
        Posts: 13,606
        Likes: 4,713
        Quoting: dopplsan
        From CBJ’s perspective, they were going to ride out Werenski until he told them he wanted out. I.e. he wouldn’t have been available this past offseason absent a big overpay. If he really did follow through on the “I want to go home to DET” rumors, he would have been a TDL or off-season move.

        And I get it when it comes to the general frustration of front-office league makeup. On one end, you will never see an outright job posting on these positions because the qualifications to handle them go far beyond what anyone in these boards can fathom. It’s easy to post ACGM’s and play MMQB, so to speak, it’s much more difficult to handle the personalities and bureaucracy behind the scenes - quite similar to being a politician, except it isn’t a matter of just casting single votes.

        These GM jobs are so exclusive because there is only 32 of them in the world, and owners want people with the experience already; so, either people who have worked NHL front offices already, or former players. And when they make these hires, money drives everything - I think we often overestimate the amount of involvement team owners have. Unless you are, say, the Jerry Jones’ of the world, most of them just want to hire someone who will take the reins on the team, and until the bottom-line starts hurting, or they otherwise feel pressure mounting to the point of being unable to ignore it, most will let it ride. Coming from a CBJ fan, this has largely been how the team has been run, for better (Jarmo and JD) and worse (basically every other front office hire ever).

        That being said, it’s difficult for me to really accord whatever is going on in CHI’s office. Bowman creates a dynasty and, as is inevitable, it ended due to age and expense. He finally makes the right move, admits to a rebuild, but then pivots to a bunch of win-now trades (Jones, Flower, releasing an affordable and productive Suter). Perhaps it’s because of, shall we say, attention off-ice with the Blackhawks, but it felt like Bowman swung hard for the fence on moves that, by his estimation, will either (a) lead to wins and make him look like a genius; or, (b) be the next guy’s problem.

        Maybe CHI ownership has an astounding amount of faith in Bowman, or maybe they are doing the whole “3D chess” thing we often joke about. But if I were ownership, I would have reined in some of these moves. Then again, like I said above, most of these guys may very well just not be as involved in team construction as a bunch of Very Online hockey nerds like us.

        And, FWIW, most of these critiques are not just CHI, but could apply to many other teams at one time or another.




        Sorry for the short novel. Damn, I didn’t realize I had written this much.


        I like what you posted with one exception; Bowman didn't create a dynasty, he inherited a dynasty after the first cup. He did a decent job making some smaller moves to keep the next 2 cups in place but the core was already locked in prior to him. What he did after the 3rd cup, is more a lack of what he didn't do. Instead of realizing the cap issues and ages, he tried to bring in aging cheap vets to fill gaps and it was clear in 2017 when the Hawks got blasted out of the first round by Nashville that it was over. That would have been the time to start building the youth movement but he held on another two seasons thinking they could compete. Then this season, he abandons the rebuild to go all in with a team that isn't going to be nearly good enough and a coach (Bowman fired Quenneville remember) that is a rookie and has this man and half defensive scheme that doesn't work. Bowman and Coach Q didn't see eye to eye apparently, and now Coach Q goes to Florida and has made that team relevant. Bowman is the problem here; it starts and ends with him.
        NickC1988 liked this.
        Oct. 17 at 1:49 a.m.
        #10
        Joined: Apr. 2017
        Posts: 13,606
        Likes: 4,713
        I've been a pretty big proponent of Kampf as a 4C over the last couple seasons. While some fans have bagged on him for lack of offense, the guy is great at faceoffs, really really good defensively, and strong on the puck. Losing him I knew would be a big loss on the 4th line.

        Not re-signing Suter was a big mistake as well. No reason why Suter can't be driving our 3rd line right now.

        Taking on Johnson and expecting him to be more then a 4th liner was yet another stupid move by Bowman after the stupid contract he gave Seabs; double stupid as stupid comes.

        Not playing Strome is a massive mistake as of now. Nobody can convince me Borgstrom belongs in the lineup over Strome; there is a reason Quenneville didn't want to play Borgstrom in Florida and I trust him over Bowman and Colliton any day of the week.

        I hated the Jones trade the minute it happened, even kept saying no to the AGMs on here prior to the trade as I'm not a fan of Jones and don't think his problems last season were a result of Colombus. Worse yet, picking up Jones for that price and then giving him that extension at that cap hit is another double stupid move by Bowman. No reason we couldn't have had Lindholm for a 1st and 2nd and kept BoQ. BoQ will be a cheaper and more valuable asset in a few years I truly believe; he's still a kid.

        I liked the McCabe signing at the time and is looking like I was wrong about that, but this is also this garbage man and half defensive system we are playing I believe. McCabe and De Haan for that matter are built better as zone players, but so far I am wrong about McCabe.

        Khaira sucks...no reason he should be playing.

        I'm okay with Gus in a sheltered role.

        Imagine this roster...

        Cat - Dach - Kane
        Kubs - Toews -
        Hagel - Suter - Kurashev
        Entwistle - Kampf - Carps (Guadette rotates in)

        Lindholm - BoQ
        McCabe - Murphy
        Stillman - Gus (C Jones or Mitchell)

        Grabbing Pine...
        Borstrom
        NickC1988 liked this.
        Oct. 17 at 8:30 a.m.
        #11
        Nah.
        Joined: Sep. 2020
        Posts: 1,250
        Likes: 823
        Quoting: ChiHawk
        I like what you posted with one exception; Bowman didn't create a dynasty, he inherited a dynasty after the first cup. He did a decent job making some smaller moves to keep the next 2 cups in place but the core was already locked in prior to him. What he did after the 3rd cup, is more a lack of what he didn't do. Instead of realizing the cap issues and ages, he tried to bring in aging cheap vets to fill gaps and it was clear in 2017 when the Hawks got blasted out of the first round by Nashville that it was over. That would have been the time to start building the youth movement but he held on another two seasons thinking they could compete. Then this season, he abandons the rebuild to go all in with a team that isn't going to be nearly good enough and a coach (Bowman fired Quenneville remember) that is a rookie and has this man and half defensive scheme that doesn't work. Bowman and Coach Q didn't see eye to eye apparently, and now Coach Q goes to Florida and has made that team relevant. Bowman is the problem here; it starts and ends with him.


        Got it - apologies for the mischaracterization. Not as keened in on a lot of the team history.

        And re FLA, JQ has done great with them, and Zito has as well in putting that roster together (The Bob contract was signed before he was hired), though it helps to inherit a roster that already has Barkov, Huberdeau and Ekblad up front, and a kid like Knight already in the system (For the record - big Zito fan. He was great in Columbus).

        Gonna be real interesting to see how they develop and maintain in the years to come.
        Eli and ChiHawk liked this.
        Oct. 17 at 2:39 p.m.
        #12
        Thread Starter
        Chicago
        Joined: Jun. 2015
        Posts: 5,596
        Likes: 1,864
        Quoting: Ragsandbluesfan
        I agree but NO CHANCE the jackets move Werenski


        Likely not, but that package definitely hauls in elite talent, and Jones may not be that the way he continues to regress.
        Oct. 17 at 2:45 p.m.
        #13
        Thread Starter
        Chicago
        Joined: Jun. 2015
        Posts: 5,596
        Likes: 1,864
        Quoting: dopplsan
        From CBJ’s perspective, they were going to ride out Werenski until he told them he wanted out. I.e. he wouldn’t have been available this past offseason absent a big overpay. If he really did follow through on the “I want to go home to DET” rumors, he would have been a TDL or off-season move.

        And I get it when it comes to the general frustration of front-office league makeup. On one end, you will never see an outright job posting on these positions because the qualifications to handle them go far beyond what anyone in these boards can fathom. It’s easy to post ACGM’s and play MMQB, so to speak, it’s much more difficult to handle the personalities and bureaucracy behind the scenes - quite similar to being a politician, except it isn’t a matter of just casting single votes.

        These GM jobs are so exclusive because there is only 32 of them in the world, and owners want people with the experience already; so, either people who have worked NHL front offices already, or former players. And when they make these hires, money drives everything - I think we often overestimate the amount of involvement team owners have. Unless you are, say, the Jerry Jones’ of the world, most of them just want to hire someone who will take the reins on the team, and until the bottom-line starts hurting, or they otherwise feel pressure mounting to the point of being unable to ignore it, most will let it ride. Coming from a CBJ fan, this has largely been how the team has been run, for better (Jarmo and JD) and worse (basically every other front office hire ever).

        That being said, it’s difficult for me to really accord whatever is going on in CHI’s office. Bowman creates a dynasty and, as is inevitable, it ended due to age and expense. He finally makes the right move, admits to a rebuild, but then pivots to a bunch of win-now trades (Jones, Flower, releasing an affordable and productive Suter). Perhaps it’s because of, shall we say, attention off-ice with the Blackhawks, but it felt like Bowman swung hard for the fence on moves that, by his estimation, will either (a) lead to wins and make him look like a genius; or, (b) be the next guy’s problem.

        Maybe CHI ownership has an astounding amount of faith in Bowman, or maybe they are doing the whole “3D chess” thing we often joke about. But if I were ownership, I would have reined in some of these moves. Then again, like I said above, most of these guys may very well just not be as involved in team construction as a bunch of Very Online hockey nerds like us.

        And, FWIW, most of these critiques are not just CHI, but could apply to many other teams at one time or another.




        Sorry for the short novel. Damn, I didn’t realize I had written this much.


        I understand what you're saying, but it's very hard to believe that the scouting roles, the managerial roles, the advisor roles are that complex. Watching the Leafs series on prime video, a large majority of these roles is communicating within work groups, something a large portion of the general population already does. The other part being player evaluation and financial, but they use private software for that (Like most companies).

        It's frustrating how none of these jobs are posted online. How does that not violate EEOC labor laws? Doesn't seem like there's any equal opportunity in that.
        Oct. 17 at 7:45 p.m.
        #14
        Who adds what?
        Joined: Jul. 2017
        Posts: 13,676
        Likes: 2,701
        Quoting: ChiHawk
        Bowman is the problem here; it starts and ends with him.


        For all your talk about not panicking so early in the season, and worrying about whether Jones was worth two first picks, you're actually going really easy on Bowman. I'll explain, but first, let's praise Bowman where he did well, this offseason:

        Khaira, Johnson, and Caleb Jones are better than Keith, Seabrook, and Kampf, overall, in 21-22 through 23-24. That much was good cap management. More total points, over the last two or three seasons. Younger, overall. Fewer injuries. Can't knock any of that. Won't. He shopped two old cap dumps around and got slight positive value back for Keith and less negative value in the Seabrook trade. Bowman cleared cap space and got younger in each move. He found a UFA who has played 4C on a playoff team and can fit right in. Solid, solid moves, all three. Who knows how much Kampf was asking to stay in Chicago, when he had an offer from a division leader on the table. That's not on Bowman. Bowman gets an A on all of this stuff, so far. Some hockey reporters are even questioning how Edmonton let the Keith trade happen, and whether they might need to change management over it. A+ on dumping cap. Bowman understands what's happening, here. No one on this board could come up with deals this good because we don't let each other get away with them. Bowman is at the top of his game. He's an All-Star, so far.

        But here's where random fans off the street, with 40 hours a week to discuss this, should have done better:

        Under a flat cap, trading an ECHLer with no cap hit for unretained $7M cap dump Marc Andre Fleury, without getting a 1st and a 2nd round pick back for the cap space, was amateur nonsense. Pit paid a pick to dump Fleury's last contract. Fleury was younger and cheaper, then, and the cap wasn't flat. Some Caps fans on this board wanted to trade for Fleury last Spring, but most of us cringed.

        Trade Strome and Johnson to Seattle, where Johnson is from, for Vanecek. Seattle lacks center depth and traded Vanecek for a 2nd. Vanecek's GAA is 1.44 right now. Fleury's is 7.06. That's almost one more touchdown allowed per game.

        Seth Jones is starting out slightly better than Shane Gostisbehere, this year. Each is -1 per game played. Each is within one percent of 42% corsi. Neither looks good, defensively. Jones has one more point. Ghost hit his career high of 65 points the same year Jones hit his career high of 57, so the difference in value should be defense. Right now, it isn't. Philly paid a 2nd and a 7th to dump Ghost on Arizona this summer. With two teams bidding for that garbage, Chi gives up a 3rd to get Ghost and a 2nd.

        Changing just the above moves--getting Ghost and Vanecek for a combined 5.3M cap hit instead of Johnson, Fleury, Strome and Jones for 20.5M cap this year--clears 15M of cap space. Dougie Hamilton signed in NJ at 9.5x7. Chi bids 10.5x7 and gets a guy who is +3 after one game with 66% corsi and one point. Then they don't need to convince anybody to make Werenski or Soucy available to help them out with puck possession. Hamilton has the puck.

        Realistic forwards: as above, but why worry if Kampf wants to play somewhere else? Sign E. Staal and you replace most of Fleury's playoff experience at league minimum. Can still lowball Khaira for depth, if he's available.

        Realistic blue line:

        McCabe Hamilton
        Ghost Murphy
        DeHaan* Boqvist
        C. Jones Zadorov*
        *one more year before these two leave as UFAs, opening up $8M in cap space. Can trade away as deadline rentals, if there's no future cap coming back.

        Realistic Goalies:
        Vanecek
        Lankinen
        Delia

        Realistic UFA target next summer, if they still want him: halo SETH JONES! halo With 12M of cap space, Chicago can sign Jones next year at the same 10.5Mx7 they paid Hamilton, give Vanecek a raise to 2M for a few years, let Carpenter walk, and give Kubalik a tiny raise, too, even if the cap stays flat.

        When you say Bowman gave up Suter, Boqvist two high 1sts and a 2nd to land Seth Jones, I'm saying he actually gave all that up just to miss out on Hamilton and Vanecek. Jones said he would play in Chicago and he was clearly a year away from free agency. Just tell him the job will be there, and go about building a winning team he'll want to join, that will have cap space for him. If he signs in Columbus first, have such a good team that he begs to be traded to Chicago like Hall begged to go to Boston. There's no reason that Chicago can't have Seth Jones, with or without the trade.

        So the choice is: Jones, Johnson, and Fleury or Jones, Hamilton, Vanecek, Gostisbehere, Suter, Boqvist and two high 1st round picks. If you take Seth Jones off of each side, since it's the same Seth Jones, and take out P. Suter and T. Johnson since I think they're pretty close in value, Bowman essentially traded Dougie Hamilton, Vitek Vanecek, Shayne Gostisbehere, Adam Boqvist, the 2021 12th overall pick, and another 1st round pick for Marc-Andre Fleury, who currently has a 7.06 goals against average and a $7M cap hit.

        At that point, yes, I think you could do better, even if you're too hung up on Suter and Kampf.

        But I agree, it's too early to panic. smile
        Oct. 17 at 8:05 p.m.
        #15
        exo2769
        Joined: Jul. 2015
        Posts: 11,002
        Likes: 4,677
        Edited Oct. 17 at 8:32 p.m.
        I agree with everything already said. That goes double for the coaching carousel that occurs. I just want to add that it's not easy to to buck that trend because that's JC...and we want him canned. (Ralph Kriger too) There are lots of PROS and CONs to this team. Too long for the full novel we could each write. It's time to change things in my mind. JC has had enough time to implement his system. This isn't his 1st or 2nd or even 3rd season. This is his 4th season. Times up
        Oct. 17 at 9:32 p.m.
        #16
        Nah.
        Joined: Sep. 2020
        Posts: 1,250
        Likes: 823
        Quoting: NickC1988
        I understand what you're saying, but it's very hard to believe that the scouting roles, the managerial roles, the advisor roles are that complex. Watching the Leafs series on prime video, a large majority of these roles is communicating within work groups, something a large portion of the general population already does. The other part being player evaluation and financial, but they use private software for that (Like most companies).

        It's frustrating how none of these jobs are posted online. How does that not violate EEOC labor laws? Doesn't seem like there's any equal opportunity in that.


        On one end, it goes back to your point of being a “boys club.” The NHL, which compared to other industries is quite small, does work within a bubble. Many current front office folk are former scouts, managers, players, or people who just worked up the chain from the bottom. In that sense, “boys club” might not be the right phrase, but it’s definitely self-contained.

        I haven’t seen the series, but I’m hesitant to look at anything these people do and simplify it to any extent that can read “I could do that,” at least on this forum., we are a bunch of Very Online Hockey Nerds. Maybe someone around here tosses a good idea around here or there, but the environment they work in is very different from the passive way that we do things here.

        And, just trust me, EEOC has nothing to do with this. There is no requirement anywhere that an available job be publicly posted. Be it the NHL or any other industry.
        Oct. 18 at 12:05 a.m.
        #17
        Thread Starter
        Chicago
        Joined: Jun. 2015
        Posts: 5,596
        Likes: 1,864
        Quoting: Eli
        For all your talk about not panicking so early in the season, and worrying about whether Jones was worth two first picks, you're actually going really easy on Bowman. I'll explain, but first, let's praise Bowman where he did well, this offseason:

        Khaira, Johnson, and Caleb Jones are better than Keith, Seabrook, and Kampf, overall, in 21-22 through 23-24. That much was good cap management. More total points, over the last two or three seasons. Younger, overall. Fewer injuries. Can't knock any of that. Won't. He shopped two old cap dumps around and got slight positive value back for Keith and less negative value in the Seabrook trade. Bowman cleared cap space and got younger in each move. He found a UFA who has played 4C on a playoff team and can fit right in. Solid, solid moves, all three. Who knows how much Kampf was asking to stay in Chicago, when he had an offer from a division leader on the table. That's not on Bowman. Bowman gets an A on all of this stuff, so far. Some hockey reporters are even questioning how Edmonton let the Keith trade happen, and whether they might need to change management over it. A+ on dumping cap. Bowman understands what's happening, here. No one on this board could come up with deals this good because we don't let each other get away with them. Bowman is at the top of his game. He's an All-Star, so far.

        But here's where random fans off the street, with 40 hours a week to discuss this, should have done better:

        Under a flat cap, trading an ECHLer with no cap hit for unretained $7M cap dump Marc Andre Fleury, without getting a 1st and a 2nd round pick back for the cap space, was amateur nonsense. Pit paid a pick to dump Fleury's last contract. Fleury was younger and cheaper, then, and the cap wasn't flat. Some Caps fans on this board wanted to trade for Fleury last Spring, but most of us cringed.

        Trade Strome and Johnson to Seattle, where Johnson is from, for Vanecek. Seattle lacks center depth and traded Vanecek for a 2nd. Vanecek's GAA is 1.44 right now. Fleury's is 7.06. That's almost one more touchdown allowed per game.

        Seth Jones is starting out slightly better than Shane Gostisbehere, this year. Each is -1 per game played. Each is within one percent of 42% corsi. Neither looks good, defensively. Jones has one more point. Ghost hit his career high of 65 points the same year Jones hit his career high of 57, so the difference in value should be defense. Right now, it isn't. Philly paid a 2nd and a 7th to dump Ghost on Arizona this summer. With two teams bidding for that garbage, Chi gives up a 3rd to get Ghost and a 2nd.

        Changing just the above moves--getting Ghost and Vanecek for a combined 5.3M cap hit instead of Johnson, Fleury, Strome and Jones for 20.5M cap this year--clears 15M of cap space. Dougie Hamilton signed in NJ at 9.5x7. Chi bids 10.5x7 and gets a guy who is +3 after one game with 66% corsi and one point. Then they don't need to convince anybody to make Werenski or Soucy available to help them out with puck possession. Hamilton has the puck.

        Realistic forwards: as above, but why worry if Kampf wants to play somewhere else? Sign E. Staal and you replace most of Fleury's playoff experience at league minimum. Can still lowball Khaira for depth, if he's available.

        Realistic blue line:

        McCabe Hamilton
        Ghost Murphy
        DeHaan* Boqvist
        C. Jones Zadorov*
        *one more year before these two leave as UFAs, opening up $8M in cap space. Can trade away as deadline rentals, if there's no future cap coming back.

        Realistic Goalies:
        Vanecek
        Lankinen
        Delia

        Realistic UFA target next summer, if they still want him: halo SETH JONES! halo With 12M of cap space, Chicago can sign Jones next year at the same 10.5Mx7 they paid Hamilton, give Vanecek a raise to 2M for a few years, let Carpenter walk, and give Kubalik a tiny raise, too, even if the cap stays flat.

        When you say Bowman gave up Suter, Boqvist two high 1sts and a 2nd to land Seth Jones, I'm saying he actually gave all that up just to miss out on Hamilton and Vanecek. Jones said he would play in Chicago and he was clearly a year away from free agency. Just tell him the job will be there, and go about building a winning team he'll want to join, that will have cap space for him. If he signs in Columbus first, have such a good team that he begs to be traded to Chicago like Hall begged to go to Boston. There's no reason that Chicago can't have Seth Jones, with or without the trade.

        So the choice is: Jones, Johnson, and Fleury or Jones, Hamilton, Vanecek, Gostisbehere, Suter, Boqvist and two high 1st round picks. If you take Seth Jones off of each side, since it's the same Seth Jones, and take out P. Suter and T. Johnson since I think they're pretty close in value, Bowman essentially traded Dougie Hamilton, Vitek Vanecek, Shayne Gostisbehere, Adam Boqvist, the 2021 12th overall pick, and another 1st round pick for Marc-Andre Fleury, who currently has a 7.06 goals against average and a $7M cap hit.

        At that point, yes, I think you could do better, even if you're too hung up on Suter and Kampf.

        But I agree, it's too early to panic. smile


        There are a million different ways to correct what happened this offseason. Near the end of last season, there seemed to be good chemistry finally being built with Suter and Kampf on their expected lines. The hawks haven't had consistent chemistry in years, and it ties back to this constant hemorrhaging of role players before they can get fully settled in. Both Suter and Kampf we're perfectly serviceable at a good price. I don't mind Fleury and McCabe adds. I think they'll improve quickly. Bringing in Johnson and Khaira up front (As well as Toews returning) means they have to restructure the entire offense including creating new lines for these new arrivals. Most teams can do that in 6 preseason games, but the Blackhawks are clearly still stuck figuring it out.
        Eli and ChiHawk liked this.
        Oct. 18 at 12:15 a.m.
        #18
        Thread Starter
        Chicago
        Joined: Jun. 2015
        Posts: 5,596
        Likes: 1,864
        Quoting: exo2769
        I agree with everything already said. That goes double for the coaching carousel that occurs. I just want to add that it's not easy to to buck that trend because that's JC...and we want him canned. (Ralph Kriger too) There are lots of PROS and CONs to this team. Too long for the full novel we could each write. It's time to change things in my mind. JC has had enough time to implement his system. This isn't his 1st or 2nd or even 3rd season. This is his 4th season. Times up


        I concur, he's got to go, and they need to stop the carousel of depth players. Suter and Kampf were serviceable at the right price and almost everyone knew it. You can't continually add and subtract players every offseason like this. Colliton clearly did not find the right lines in the 6 preseason games plus the 3 regular season games. That's 9 games to get the lines right, and yet we're watching depleted Pittsburgh steamroll this team. Hell, what were they doing in training camp?! 4 seasons with Colliton and it's like watching the same team over and over. The same mistakes, the same sloppy defense, the same poor D zone breakouts. No matter who they bring in, it's the same result. At what point do they stop releasing the right players and realize they have the wrong coaching?
        exo2769 liked this.
        Oct. 18 at 11:52 a.m.
        #19
        Joined: Apr. 2017
        Posts: 13,606
        Likes: 4,713
        Quoting: Eli
        For all your talk about not panicking so early in the season, and worrying about whether Jones was worth two first picks, you're actually going really easy on Bowman. I'll explain, but first, let's praise Bowman where he did well, this offseason:

        Khaira, Johnson, and Caleb Jones are better than Keith, Seabrook, and Kampf, overall, in 21-22 through 23-24. That much was good cap management. More total points, over the last two or three seasons. Younger, overall. Fewer injuries. Can't knock any of that. Won't. He shopped two old cap dumps around and got slight positive value back for Keith and less negative value in the Seabrook trade. Bowman cleared cap space and got younger in each move. He found a UFA who has played 4C on a playoff team and can fit right in. Solid, solid moves, all three. Who knows how much Kampf was asking to stay in Chicago, when he had an offer from a division leader on the table. That's not on Bowman. Bowman gets an A on all of this stuff, so far. Some hockey reporters are even questioning how Edmonton let the Keith trade happen, and whether they might need to change management over it. A+ on dumping cap. Bowman understands what's happening, here. No one on this board could come up with deals this good because we don't let each other get away with them. Bowman is at the top of his game. He's an All-Star, so far.

        But here's where random fans off the street, with 40 hours a week to discuss this, should have done better:

        Under a flat cap, trading an ECHLer with no cap hit for unretained $7M cap dump Marc Andre Fleury, without getting a 1st and a 2nd round pick back for the cap space, was amateur nonsense. Pit paid a pick to dump Fleury's last contract. Fleury was younger and cheaper, then, and the cap wasn't flat. Some Caps fans on this board wanted to trade for Fleury last Spring, but most of us cringed.

        Trade Strome and Johnson to Seattle, where Johnson is from, for Vanecek. Seattle lacks center depth and traded Vanecek for a 2nd. Vanecek's GAA is 1.44 right now. Fleury's is 7.06. That's almost one more touchdown allowed per game.

        Seth Jones is starting out slightly better than Shane Gostisbehere, this year. Each is -1 per game played. Each is within one percent of 42% corsi. Neither looks good, defensively. Jones has one more point. Ghost hit his career high of 65 points the same year Jones hit his career high of 57, so the difference in value should be defense. Right now, it isn't. Philly paid a 2nd and a 7th to dump Ghost on Arizona this summer. With two teams bidding for that garbage, Chi gives up a 3rd to get Ghost and a 2nd.

        Changing just the above moves--getting Ghost and Vanecek for a combined 5.3M cap hit instead of Johnson, Fleury, Strome and Jones for 20.5M cap this year--clears 15M of cap space. Dougie Hamilton signed in NJ at 9.5x7. Chi bids 10.5x7 and gets a guy who is +3 after one game with 66% corsi and one point. Then they don't need to convince anybody to make Werenski or Soucy available to help them out with puck possession. Hamilton has the puck.

        Realistic forwards: as above, but why worry if Kampf wants to play somewhere else? Sign E. Staal and you replace most of Fleury's playoff experience at league minimum. Can still lowball Khaira for depth, if he's available.

        Realistic blue line:

        McCabe Hamilton
        Ghost Murphy
        DeHaan* Boqvist
        C. Jones Zadorov*
        *one more year before these two leave as UFAs, opening up $8M in cap space. Can trade away as deadline rentals, if there's no future cap coming back.

        Realistic Goalies:
        Vanecek
        Lankinen
        Delia

        Realistic UFA target next summer, if they still want him: halo SETH JONES! halo With 12M of cap space, Chicago can sign Jones next year at the same 10.5Mx7 they paid Hamilton, give Vanecek a raise to 2M for a few years, let Carpenter walk, and give Kubalik a tiny raise, too, even if the cap stays flat.

        When you say Bowman gave up Suter, Boqvist two high 1sts and a 2nd to land Seth Jones, I'm saying he actually gave all that up just to miss out on Hamilton and Vanecek. Jones said he would play in Chicago and he was clearly a year away from free agency. Just tell him the job will be there, and go about building a winning team he'll want to join, that will have cap space for him. If he signs in Columbus first, have such a good team that he begs to be traded to Chicago like Hall begged to go to Boston. There's no reason that Chicago can't have Seth Jones, with or without the trade.

        So the choice is: Jones, Johnson, and Fleury or Jones, Hamilton, Vanecek, Gostisbehere, Suter, Boqvist and two high 1st round picks. If you take Seth Jones off of each side, since it's the same Seth Jones, and take out P. Suter and T. Johnson since I think they're pretty close in value, Bowman essentially traded Dougie Hamilton, Vitek Vanecek, Shayne Gostisbehere, Adam Boqvist, the 2021 12th overall pick, and another 1st round pick for Marc-Andre Fleury, who currently has a 7.06 goals against average and a $7M cap hit.

        At that point, yes, I think you could do better, even if you're too hung up on Suter and Kampf.

        But I agree, it's too early to panic. smile


        A lot to digest in what you wrote but I'll try...

        A) "For all your talk about not panicking so early in the season" I'm not sure where you get all my talk from
        B) Johnson, Caleb Jones, Seabrook, and Keith have nothing to do with Kampf as Johnson is not a 4C on the Hawks. If he was playing 4C then I understand the upgrade over Kampf and don't disagree with you, but he has been playing 2nd line between Kane and Cat with a recent demotion to 3C midway through the last game. Khaira was signed for Kampf, understanding in Chicago's front office is that allowed Kampf to walk. I'll take Kampf every day over Khaira if Johnson isn't playing 4C. Kampf is one of the best defensive forwards Chicago has seen in a long time.
        C) Kubalik will get more then a slight raise at his current cap hit of $3.7M; likely a minimum of $5.5M but realistically around $7M give or take.
        D) I'd argue Suter has more value then Johnson even with Suter's higher cap hit. Suter as an example, did a much better job between Kane and Cat last year then what Johnson has shown so far and Suter is certainly better then a 4C even on a cup team.
        E) Moving Seabs for Johnson was not necessary unless you play Johnson as a very expensive 4C but doesn't change the fact that he's a cap dump.
        F) The rest of what you wrote we all can call a number of different scenarios. I'd venture to say the better move was to give up a 1st and 2nd and grab Lindholm from Anaheim if the Hawks were desperate for a top line defensive player. Lindholm would have been cheaper and the Hawks would have kept Boqvist who in a few years I believe is still going to be a stud in the league despite his development being rushed by Chicago. Then the Hawks could have gone after Jones the following year as you said if they still wanted to as a free agent instead of overpaying for him which is what they did. Further, there are a number of free agent bigger defensive names next offseason, i.e. Reilly. That being said, all this is conjecture of course and all we can do is look at the moves or lack thereof in the context of what has taken place.
        Eli liked this.
         
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