Forums/Armchair-GM

Nylander POJ slacker

Created by: Eli
Initial Creation Date: Oct. 22, 2021
Published: Oct. 22, 2021
Team: 2022-23 Washington Capitals
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
Cholowski, Dennis3$1,000,000
Sprong, Daniel3$1,000,000
Samsonov, Ilya3$3,000,000
Vanecek, Vitek3$3,000,000
Johansen, Lucas2$750,000
Leason, Brett2$750,000
Bellerive, Jordy2$750,000
Joseph, Pierre-Olivier2$750,000
Trades
1.
WSH
  1. Nylander, William
TOR
  1. Orlov, Dmitry
2.
WSH
  1. Blueger, Teddy
  2. Joseph, Pierre-Olivier [RFA Rights]
  3. Bellerive, Jordy [RFA Rights]
PIT
  1. Eller, Lars
  2. Gersich, Shane [RFA Rights]
Additional Details:
Nic Dowd

this trade happens today, to give Pit two centers with Cup rings and a third really good center, while they're missing three great centers to injuries.
3.
WSH
  1. Kravtsov, Vitali [RFA Rights]
  2. 2022 5th round pick (NYR)
NYR
  1. Sheary, Conor
Additional Details:
trade in summer due to cap crunch after taking on Nylander
Buried
  • Teddy Blueger: $1,075,000 ($2,200,000)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2022
WSH
WPG
WSH
WSH
WSH
NYR
WSH
WSH
2023
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
2024
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
WSH
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$80,516,532$0$232,500$983,468
Left WingCenterRight Wing
WSH
Ovechkin, Alex
$9,500,000
LW, RW
NMC NTC
UFA - 4
WSH
Kuznetsov, Evgeny
$7,800,000
C
NTC
UFA - 3
WSH
Oshie, T.J.
$5,750,000
RW
NTC
UFA - 3
TOR
Nylander, William
$6,962,366
RW, LW
UFA - 2
WSH
Bäckström, Nicklas
$9,200,000
C
NMC
UFA - 3
WSH
Mantha, Anthony
$5,700,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
WSH
Sprong, Daniel
$1,000,000
RW, LW
RFA
WSH
Lapierre, Hendrix
$894,167
C
RFA - 2
WSH
Wilson, Tom
$5,166,666
RW
NTC
UFA - 2
WSH
Hagelin, Carl
$2,750,000
LW
UFA - 1
WSH
McMichael, Connor
$863,333
LW, C
RFA - 2
WSH
Hathaway, Garnet
$1,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 1
WSH
Pilon, Garrett
$750,000
C
RFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
WSH
Fehérváry, Martin
$791,667
LD
RFA - 1
WSH
Carlson, John
$8,000,000
RD
NTC
UFA - 4
WSH
Samsonov, Ilya
$3,000,000
G
RFA
WSH
Alexeyev, Alexander
$863,333
LD
RFA - 1
WSH
Jensen, Nick
$2,500,000
RD
UFA - 1
WSH
Vanecek, Vitek
$3,000,000
G
RFA
WSH
Cholowski, Dennis
$1,000,000
LD
RFA
WSH
van Riemsdyk, Trevor
$950,000
LD/RD
UFA - 1
Joseph, Pierre-Olivier
$750,000
LD
RFA
WSH
Johansen, Lucas
$750,000
LD
RFA

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Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:29 p.m.
#1
Joined: Jun. 2021
Posts: 87
Likes: 8
Nuh-uh. The Leafs say no in a heartbeat
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:30 p.m.
#2
Joined: Dec. 2015
Posts: 2,811
Likes: 300
PIT says no
pensburgh571 liked this.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:34 p.m.
#3
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: KMarner10
Nuh-uh. The Leafs say no in a heartbeat


Today they pass. True. In the summer, compare the available wing UFAs to defense UFAs and get back to WSH to see if Orlov is even available.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:34 p.m.
#4
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: gpmack95
PIT says no


Thanks. Good luck getting through those injuries.
gpmack95 liked this.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:34 p.m.
#5
Biased Opinion
Joined: Mar. 2019
Posts: 2,638
Likes: 1,930
Quoting: Eli
Today they pass. True. In the summer, compare the available wing UFAs to defense UFAs and get back to WSH to see if Orlov is even available.


X
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:35 p.m.
#6
Joined: Dec. 2015
Posts: 2,811
Likes: 300
Quoting: Eli
Thanks. Good luck getting through those injuries.


The cap wouldnt even work?
Capitalfail67 and pensburgh571 liked this.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:43 p.m.
#7
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: gpmack95
The cap wouldnt even work?


That's what I liked most about it! smile
gpmack95 liked this.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:45 p.m.
#8
Caps fan idk why
Joined: Dec. 2016
Posts: 9,764
Likes: 3,725
I wouldnt want to trade Orlov tbh and Nylander value is slightly higher or lets say its hypothetically equal... Leafs are deep at LSD and Capitals are deep at RW. Being 100% honest Nylanders value is going to be more than Orlov. Orlov is extremely underrated / underappreciated that i doubt 90% of this site would even give a 2nd for him when in reality he's worth way more than that imo. You can just wait 2 years and get him as a UFA if you really want him or just sign Forsberg next year and keep you #1 LSD.

Kravtsov is maybe worth a 2nd but Sheary is a lot better and barely making more so why downgrade ? seems like a bad choice

Penguins trade doesnt make sense to me also.... POJ is good but is he better than Alexeyev? i dont think so.. MF is already playing top pairing minutes... Alexeyev is going to be a comparable talent AND we have Orlov.

Eller and Dowd are worth a lot and swapping them for TB isnt really worth it. Penguins gain really good centers capitals gain 1 and a D prospect that isnt better than what we already have ? whats the point? just making trades to make trade.. its what the site was made for i guess but madness!!!
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:47 p.m.
#9
Lenny7
Joined: Jan. 2017
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 6,460
Quoting: Eli
Today they pass. True. In the summer, compare the available wing UFAs to defense UFAs and get back to WSH to see if Orlov is even available.


I feel like you know that Nylander for 1 year of Orlov would be one of the biggest overpays trade-wise in the past 10 years. You're just trolling...right?
Barilko14 and pensburgh571 liked this.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 1:54 p.m.
#10
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: Lenny7
I feel like you know that Nylander for 1 year of Orlov would be one of the biggest overpays trade-wise in the past 10 years. You're just trolling...right?


Nah. I think all the Tor fans looking for Marner trades are looking for cap space to keep Rielly. If Sandin will be ready for a top four spot in two years, then one year of Orlov gets Tor over the hump. Then it's a question of how much Nylander's numbers are driven by always playing with Tavares or Matthews. Since he had a year on third line and scored less than Eller there, I think that Orlov's low cap hit allows Tor to shop in a buyer's market for top six wings rather than give Rielly 10M a year or whatever he wants.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:02 p.m.
#11
AMG Fanatic
Joined: Oct. 2018
Posts: 16,670
Likes: 5,765
Rangers don't want Sheary.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:21 p.m.
#12
Daddy
Joined: Feb. 2021
Posts: 706
Likes: 510
Quoting: Eli
Nah. I think all the Tor fans looking for Marner trades are looking for cap space to keep Rielly. If Sandin will be ready for a top four spot in two years, then one year of Orlov gets Tor over the hump. Then it's a question of how much Nylander's numbers are driven by always playing with Tavares or Matthews. Since he had a year on third line and scored less than Eller there, I think that Orlov's low cap hit allows Tor to shop in a buyer's market for top six wings rather than give Rielly 10M a year or whatever he wants.


That year Nylander played on the 3rd line was when he held out and he didn't have a training camp, was just a weird situation. Nylander's value has risen signifigantly since about the halfway point of last year, also your arguement of who he gets to play with doesn't really work anymore, in the past when he played with Matthews sure, but now it doesn't make sense at all. Perhaps you don't watch many Leafs games, but Nylander drives that 2nd line, be it Tavares or Kerfoot in the middle, doesn't matter he's the one driving the play.
Eli liked this.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:22 p.m.
#13
Lenny7
Joined: Jan. 2017
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 6,460
Quoting: Eli
Nah. I think all the Tor fans looking for Marner trades are looking for cap space to keep Rielly. If Sandin will be ready for a top four spot in two years, then one year of Orlov gets Tor over the hump. Then it's a question of how much Nylander's numbers are driven by always playing with Tavares or Matthews. Since he had a year on third line and scored less than Eller there, I think that Orlov's low cap hit allows Tor to shop in a buyer's market for top six wings rather than give Rielly 10M a year or whatever he wants.


Oh. You really were serious.

Listen, I know you're a smart guy, which is why I'm sure that, despite not noting it, you knew that Nylander's "down year", the year that he was on the 3rd line, was also the season where he sat out training camp, and didn't return to the ice until December. A season where he started with just 3 points in his first 19 games. I'd assume it's not easy jumping into an NHL lineup mid season. He appeared to hit his stride though, given that he had 24 points over the last 35 games (0.68 ppg), good enough to get him back within 0.06 ppg of his career average.

I'm also sure that, despite not noting it, you also knew that Eller played 27 more games than Nylander that season. Eller point per game: 0.44 vs. Nylander point per game: 0.5.

I'm also fairly certain that, despite not noting it, you also knew that Nylander finished that year with 10 points in his last 13 games.

Honestly, it's really ok that, even when you cherry picked a season that he sat out for the first half, you forgot to mention all of the things that would go against your narrative.

As for shopping for top six wings? They've got one...his name is William Nylander. The thought that, moving him to replace Rielly with 1 year of Orlov, to free up about $1.8 mil in cap space, to then go overspend on a free agent winger that's older and most likely less productive than Nylander is absolutely insane. The reason people are making Marner ACGM's is because there's a weird group of Leafs fans that have an irrational dislike for him because they consider him overpaid in spite of the fact that he finished 4th in league scoring last year, is reliable at both ends of the ice, and is not what they'd consider "Gritty", which is why that same group was happy to get Nick Ritchie, who isn't good at all.

Conclusion: Nylander for Orlov is very, very bad for Toronto, and very, very good for Washington.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:26 p.m.
#14
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: Capitalfail67
I wouldnt want to trade Orlov tbh and Nylander value is slightly higher or lets say its hypothetically equal... Leafs are deep at LSD and Capitals are deep at RW. Being 100% honest Nylanders value is going to be more than Orlov. Orlov is extremely underrated / underappreciated that i doubt 90% of this site would even give a 2nd for him when in reality he's worth way more than that imo. You can just wait 2 years and get him as a UFA if you really want him or just sign Forsberg next year and keep you #1 LSD.


Wouldn't trade orlov today. Might consider in summer if Fehervary and Cholowski keep improving their defensive play. Cholowski has offense to play top four but has to learn where to be on the ice to earn big minutes. Johansen is playing in Hershey. Might get back on track, or not. Agree Alexeyev will be very good. So whether Orlov becomes available in summer is driven by prospect development, not by POJ trade idea.

Quoting: Capitalfail67

Kravtsov is maybe worth a 2nd but Sheary is a lot better and barely making more so why downgrade ? seems like a bad choice


Sheary is a 50 point wing in his 20s on a great contract. Would Kravtsov develop faster on a line with Protas? I don't know. Maybe a little? Still needs a pick, for sure. Wouldn't expect Kravtsov to play right away in WSH this year because he's not ready and they don't have room.

Quoting: Capitalfail67

Penguins trade doesnt make sense to me also.... POJ is good but is he better than Alexeyev? i dont think so.. MF is already playing top pairing minutes... Alexeyev is going to be a comparable talent AND we have Orlov.

Eller and Dowd are worth a lot and swapping them for TB isnt really worth it. Penguins gain really good centers capitals gain 1 and a D prospect that isnt better than what we already have ? whats the point? just making trades to make trade.. its what the site was made for i guess but madness!!!


Madness? Well, if the shoe fits.

Pit fans asked for Eller's value the other day, because injuries have them down to just Blueger at center. I don't know if they know how good Dowd is. Probably easier to just build an offer for Eller, leave Blueger out of it, and not try to solve their whole problem.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:26 p.m.
#15
Joined: Aug. 2019
Posts: 3,396
Likes: 1,400
Quoting: Eli
Nah. I think all the Tor fans looking for Marner trades are looking for cap space to keep Rielly. If Sandin will be ready for a top four spot in two years, then one year of Orlov gets Tor over the hump. Then it's a question of how much Nylander's numbers are driven by always playing with Tavares or Matthews. Since he had a year on third line and scored less than Eller there, I think that Orlov's low cap hit allows Tor to shop in a buyer's market for top six wings rather than give Rielly 10M a year or whatever he wants.


Nah you're a clown
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:50 p.m.
#16
24-10-3
Joined: Jul. 2020
Posts: 2,963
Likes: 1,645
Leafs counter with Holl for Mantha.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:55 p.m.
#17
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: Lenny7
Oh. You really were serious.

Listen, I know you're a smart guy, which is why I'm sure that, despite not noting it, you knew that Nylander's "down year", the year that he was on the 3rd line, was also the season where he sat out training camp, and didn't return to the ice until December. A season where he started with just 3 points in his first 19 games. I'd assume it's not easy jumping into an NHL lineup mid season. He appeared to hit his stride though, given that he had 24 points over the last 35 games (0.68 ppg), good enough to get him back within 0.06 ppg of his career average.

I'm also sure that, despite not noting it, you also knew that Eller played 27 more games than Nylander that season. Eller point per game: 0.44 vs. Nylander point per game: 0.5.

I'm also fairly certain that, despite not noting it, you also knew that Nylander finished that year with 10 points in his last 13 games.

Honestly, it's really ok that, even when you cherry picked a season that he sat out for the first half, you forgot to mention all of the things that would go against your narrative.

As for shopping for top six wings? They've got one...his name is William Nylander. The thought that, moving him to replace Rielly with 1 year of Orlov, to free up about $1.8 mil in cap space, to then go overspend on a free agent winger that's older and most likely less productive than Nylander is absolutely insane. The reason people are making Marner ACGM's is because there's a weird group of Leafs fans that have an irrational dislike for him because they consider him overpaid in spite of the fact that he finished 4th in league scoring last year, is reliable at both ends of the ice, and is not what they'd consider "Gritty", which is why that same group was happy to get Nick Ritchie, who isn't good at all.

Conclusion: Nylander for Orlov is very, very bad for Toronto, and very, very good for Washington.


Thanks. Since you're giving me credit for knowing everything, I won't have to point out that Orlov rivals Muzzin for consistent even strength production at LD. I won't have to tell you Orlov led LHD in playoff minutes and even strength points in 2018.

You also probably followed that by letting Rielly and Campbell walk, and dumping Ritchie at slight negative value, Toronto gets around $9M to play a forward UFA market that includes Kessel, Rakell, Perron, Dustin Brown, Palat, Rust, Pavelski, and more. Some of those guys are old, and might be cheap. A few of them are still pretty good.

I've already got another Caps fan commenting that Nylander isn't worth Orlov in terms of what he'd bring to Washington, and I kind of agree. I could offer to add Sheary, and Toronto fans could continue saying that nobody will ever be worth trading Nylander, but it doesn't matter much if Orlov isn't available.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:57 p.m.
#18
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: ZachHymanForTheHart
Leafs counter with Holl for Mantha.


In the offseason? Under a flat cap? With Kessel, Rakell, Perron, Dustin Brown, Palat, Rust, Pavelski, and more wings as UFAs? Cool.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 2:58 p.m.
#19
24-10-3
Joined: Jul. 2020
Posts: 2,963
Likes: 1,645
Quoting: Eli
In the offseason? Under a flat cap? With Kessel, Rakell, Perron, Dustin Brown, Palat, Rust, Pavelski, and more wings as UFAs? Cool.


If you seriously think Orlov has as much value as Nylander, I want whatever drugs you’re on.
Lenny7 liked this.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 3:02 p.m.
#20
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: ZachHymanForTheHart
If you seriously think Orlov has as much value as Nylander, I want whatever drugs you’re on.


No. Only the Leafs players have trade value. Everybody else is awful. Sorry for forgetting that.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 3:06 p.m.
#21
Lenny7
Joined: Jan. 2017
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 6,460
Quoting: Eli
Thanks. Since you're giving me credit for knowing everything, I won't have to point out that Orlov rivals Muzzin for consistent even strength production at LD. I won't have to tell you Orlov led LHD in playoff minutes and even strength points in 2018.

You also probably followed that by letting Rielly and Campbell walk, and dumping Ritchie at slight negative value, Toronto gets around $9M to play a forward UFA market that includes Kessel, Rakell, Perron, Dustin Brown, Palat, Rust, Pavelski, and more. Some of those guys are old, and might be cheap. A few of them are still pretty good.

I've already got another Caps fan commenting that Nylander isn't worth Orlov in terms of what he'd bring to Washington, and I kind of agree. I could offer to add Sheary, and Toronto fans could continue saying that nobody will ever be worth trading Nylander, but it doesn't matter much if Orlov isn't available.


Hahaha, I didn't say "nobody will ever be worth trading Nylander". I said "1 year of Orlov doesn't = Nylander". You were the one skimping on all of the details.

As for Muzzin, great example of the value of a defensive defenceman! 1.25 years of Muzzin=late 1st+fringe prospect (Durzi)+B prospect (Grundstrom). Interesting, because, for 1 year less than the remaining time on Nylander's contract, the Caps gave up a 1st, 2nd, young roster player who had already eclipsed 50 pts (Vrana), and a mini dump in Panik. I find it comical, mainly because Nylander has been far more productive than Mantha at this point.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 3:13 p.m.
#22
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Quoting: Lenny7
Hahaha, I didn't say "nobody will ever be worth trading Nylander". I said "1 year of Orlov doesn't = Nylander". You were the one skimping on all of the details.

As for Muzzin, great example of the value of a defensive defenceman! 1.25 years of Muzzin=late 1st+fringe prospect (Durzi)+B prospect (Grundstrom). Interesting, because, for 1 year less than the remaining time on Nylander's contract, the Caps gave up a 1st, 2nd, young roster player who had already eclipsed 50 pts (Vrana), and a mini dump in Panik. I find it comical, mainly because Nylander has been far more productive than Mantha at this point.


So has Vrana. That was a terrible trade that MacLellan justified by saying Vrana and Panik had privately requested to be traded somewhere they would get more ice time. The fact that Vrana could have been arb eligible over the summer while Mantha had term left probably helped, too, given that Ovechkin was a UFA this past summer. The Caps focused on Ovechkin rather than on winning a trade. Fans on here focus on winning every trade, even if it means passing on a great UFA signing that could be more valuable to their team than winning a given trade.

eta: which top four wings are better for the Leafs: Marner, Nylander, Bunting, Ritchie or Marner, Rust, Sheary, Palat? If the choice is whether to have an offense-only 1LD in Rielly locked up for eight years, and have the first group, or to have one year of a mostly-offense 1LD like Orlov, and have the second group, then "losing" a trade doesn't matter.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 3:18 p.m.
#23
Joined: Jan. 2021
Posts: 1,139
Likes: 414
Quoting: Eli
Thanks. Good luck getting through those injuries.


don't see why the pens trade probably their best prospect and most reliable forward in terms of health and two way play right now. plus carter is in covid protocol so that isn't the end of the world and sid is back in a week or 2. their center depth is being tested but they've held up well so far
Oct. 22, 2021 at 3:32 p.m.
#24
Thread Starter
Who adds what?
Joined: Jul. 2017
Posts: 13,677
Likes: 2,702
Edited Oct. 22, 2021 at 3:54 p.m.
Quoting: Pens2000
don't see why the pens trade probably their best prospect and most reliable forward in terms of health and two way play right now. plus carter is in covid protocol so that isn't the end of the world and sid is back in a week or 2. their center depth is being tested but they've held up well so far


In the last four seasons, Eller has 24 more points than Carter, in spite of playing a more defensive role. He scored the cup clinching goal in 2018, while shutting down and outscoring Vegas' top line through the series.

Dowd isn't worth much, but he's as good as Blueger at a third of the cap hit.

Gersich has a Cup ring, and was one of the Caps' faster players in the '18 playoffs, but oddly hasn't been back up since.

That's three centers, one of them good enough to push Carter to a wing spot, for one center, a couple prospects, and some cap space.


eta: if Blueger for Dowd doesn't look awesome to Pittsburgh fans, take that part out?

Make it Eller and Gersich for Bellerive and POJ?

I'm optimistic that one/both of Lapierre/McMichael can play a middle six role this year, and I'm optimistic that Backstrom will come back. I don't know what the team is actually planning, but with those assumptions, Eller for picks/prospects makes sense to me.

If Pit wanted to minimize the cap mess that gets them into with a Blueger/Dowd swap, fine.
Oct. 22, 2021 at 3:58 p.m.
#25
24-10-3
Joined: Jul. 2020
Posts: 2,963
Likes: 1,645
Quoting: Eli
No. Only the Leafs players have trade value. Everybody else is awful. Sorry for forgetting that.


You are so unbelievably biased, it’s pathetic.

I simply said Orlov will not get you Nylander.
 
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