Forums/Armchair-GM

Kempe Holl

Created by: bhuntlol
Initial Creation Date: Oct. 30, 2021
Published: Oct. 30, 2021
Team: 2021-22 Toronto Maple Leafs
Trades
1.
TOR
  1. Kempe, Adrian ($1,000,000 retained)
LAK
  1. Holl, Justin
Additional Details:
what else needs to be added ?
Retained Salary Transactions
  • Phil Kessel: $1,200,000 (15%)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2022
TOR
TOR
TOR
2023
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2024
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
22$81,500,000$80,363,116$0$400,000$1,136,884
Left WingCenterRight Wing
TOR
Bunting, Michael
$950,000
LW
UFA - 2
TOR
Matthews, Auston
$11,640,250
C
UFA - 3
TOR
Nylander, William
$6,962,366
RW, LW
UFA - 3
TOR
Kerfoot, Alexander
$3,500,000
C, LW
UFA - 2
TOR
Tavares, John
$11,000,000
C
NMC
UFA - 4
TOR
Marner, Mitchell
$10,903,000
RW
UFA - 4
TOR
Engvall, Pierre
$1,250,000
LW, C
RFA - 1
TOR
Kämpf, David
$1,500,000
C, RW
UFA - 2
TOR
Kase, Ondrej
$1,250,000
RW
RFA - 1
TOR
Ritchie, Nick
$2,500,000
LW
UFA - 2
TOR
Spezza, Jason
$750,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
TOR
Simmonds, Wayne
$900,000
RW, LW
NTC
UFA - 2
LAK
Kempe, Adrian
$1,000,000
LW, RW
RFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
TOR
Muzzin, Jake
$5,625,000
LD
NTC
UFA - 3
TOR
Brodie, TJ
$5,000,000
RD
NTC
UFA - 3
TOR
Mrázek, Petr
$3,800,000
G
NTC
UFA - 3
TOR
Rielly, Morgan
$5,000,000
LD
NMC
UFA - 1
TOR
Liljegren, Timothy
$863,333
RD
RFA - 1
TOR
Campbell, Jack
$1,650,000
G
UFA - 1
TOR
Dermott, Travis
$1,500,000
LD/RD
RFA - 2
TOR
Hutchinson, Michael
$725,000
G
UFA - 1
TOR
Sandin, Rasmus
$894,167
LD
RFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
TOR
Mikheyev, Ilya
$1,645,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1

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Oct. 30, 2021 at 8:21 p.m.
#1
Joined: Mar. 2019
Posts: 1,008
Likes: 794
Can't see the Kings being interested in Holl at the expense of anyone of their players/prospects. Especially not someone currently in their top-6.

Pay through the nose to move Holl in this trade (ie, your 1st rounder) or change it to Liljegren and a 2nd/3rd. The Kings aren't desperate enough for defenseman to make a lopsided trade against them. If things continue to go poorly, they'll just let it run its course and get a lottery pick. They want to contend for a playoff spot, but they've been nothing if not patient with the rebuild.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 30, 2021 at 8:43 p.m.
#2
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct. 2020
Posts: 453
Likes: 63
Quoting: PuckLuck_77
Can't see the Kings being interested in Holl at the expense of anyone of their players/prospects. Especially not someone currently in their top-6.

Pay through the nose to move Holl in this trade (ie, your 1st rounder) or change it to Liljegren and a 2nd/3rd. The Kings aren't desperate enough for defenseman to make a lopsided trade against them. If things continue to go poorly, they'll just let it run its course and get a lottery pick. They want to contend for a playoff spot, but they've been nothing if not patient with the rebuild.


your evaluation of player value is insanely braindead
GenXHockey liked this.
Oct. 30, 2021 at 8:53 p.m.
#3
Joined: Mar. 2019
Posts: 1,008
Likes: 794
Quoting: bhuntlol
your evaluation of player value is insanely braindead


Solid contribution. Well thought out and a good argument. I'm convinced.

... Not.

Sorry that:
1) other teams aren't willing to bend over backwards to make your team better and
2) the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.

Heck, you even wanted retention on the clearly better player lol. I don't feel as if this conversation will go anywhere. Have a nice evening.
OldNYIfan and RaZZe liked this.
Oct. 30, 2021 at 9:44 p.m.
#4
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct. 2020
Posts: 453
Likes: 63
Quoting: PuckLuck_77
Solid contribution. Well thought out and a good argument. I'm convinced.

... Not.

Sorry that:
1) other teams aren't willing to bend over backwards to make your team better and
2) the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.

Heck, you even wanted retention on the clearly better player lol. I don't feel as if this conversation will go anywhere. Have a nice evening.

imagine suggesting that 2M is worth a 1st rounder, yikes man
Oct. 30, 2021 at 11:45 p.m.
#5
LongtimeLeafsufferer
Joined: Jul. 2015
Posts: 41,706
Likes: 12,820
Hardly the way to build a roster, adding a winger and subtracting an NHL Dman, and leaving the Leafs without a 7th Dman. Kings say no to the deal anyway.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 12:17 a.m.
#6
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 22,105
Likes: 11,815
Kempe is better than any LW currently on your roster. We won't be trading him for Justin Holl and your 2022 second. And since both players have a cap hit of $2 million, why would either team retain?
PuckLuck_77 liked this.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 12:31 a.m.
#7
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: PuckLuck_77
Solid contribution. Well thought out and a good argument. I'm convinced.

... Not.

Sorry that:
1) other teams aren't willing to bend over backwards to make your team better and
2) the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.

Heck, you even wanted retention on the clearly better player lol. I don't feel as if this conversation will go anywhere. Have a nice evening.


2 things,

One you definitely are undervaluing Holl. He hasn't been the best yet but he's definitely still a good player. Its been 8 games only. Couple that with the fact that Kempe hasn't ever been more than a 30 point winger, it's fairly even given the roles the players play on their team.

Secondly, your team has an old core that still wants to win. They won't likely feel good about wasting a year. Getting defensive help could be a huge help in turning this around and fighting for the playoffs in a wide open west.

Its a trade that makes a lot of sense. Not sure I'd do it but it's not one that overly favors either team. Fills holes on both sides
Oct. 31, 2021 at 12:34 a.m.
#8
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: OldNYIfan
Kempe is better than any LW currently on your roster. We won't be trading him for Justin Holl and your 2022 second. And since both players have a cap hit of $2 million, why would either team retain?


He certainly hasn't proven that. Kempe's been no more than a 30 point winger for his career. I like his game and do value him but that's his ceiling he's shown so far. Holl hasn't been great this season but he's proven to be a top 4 defenceman who so happens to be a RD which the Kings are aggressively looking for.

Seems like a reasonable hockey trade. We can discuss who adds if anyone does but it's a rather even deal.
GenXHockey liked this.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 12:54 a.m.
#9
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 22,105
Likes: 11,815
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
He certainly hasn't proven that. Kempe's been no more than a 30 point winger for his career. I like his game and do value him but that's his ceiling he's shown so far. Holl hasn't been great this season but he's proven to be a top 4 defenceman who so happens to be a RD which the Kings are aggressively looking for.

Seems like a reasonable hockey trade. We can discuss who adds if anyone does but it's a rather even deal.


It's not close to even from my PoV. Holl turns 30 at mid-season and is under contract for one more year, and is a bottom-pairing guy (at least on our team, behind Doughty and Roy, and probably wouldn't replace Sean Walker if the latter were healthy). Kempe is 25, an RFA under team control for at least two more years, has 61 points in 125 games over the last two seasons, and is at worst a middle-6 forward. I don't think that even in our currently straitened situation, we'd trade Kempe for Holl and your 2022 second.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 2:16 a.m.
#10
Formerly Jamiepo
Joined: Jul. 2018
Posts: 18,956
Likes: 9,742
Quoting: OldNYIfan
It's not close to even from my PoV. Holl turns 30 at mid-season and is under contract for one more year, and is a bottom-pairing guy (at least on our team, behind Doughty and Roy, and probably wouldn't replace Sean Walker if the latter were healthy). Kempe is 25, an RFA under team control for at least two more years, has 61 points in 125 games over the last two seasons, and is at worst a middle-6 forward. I don't think that even in our currently straitened situation, we'd trade Kempe for Holl and your 2022 second.


Kempe is better than ritchie. I don’t think you can claim he is better than nylander bunting kerfoot as you tried to point out earlier. Seems to be on par with Engvall this season despite playing top 6 minutes, but the season is still early.

walker is done for the season and Doughty is out for 6 weeks. I think Holl would fit the bill perfectly here. I wouldn’t say that roy certainly plays 82 games when Doughty returns.

I can’t see any other player on the kings that would fit for a trade for an rhd. I don’t think they want to move their 1st or even a 2nd in this draft. They certainly aren’t getting a top 4 rhd for less than that.

I think leafs have the depth to cover moving Holl but even then I have my reservations about moving him. That’s usually when the injuries start piling up.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 8:38 a.m.
#11
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: OldNYIfan
It's not close to even from my PoV. Holl turns 30 at mid-season and is under contract for one more year, and is a bottom-pairing guy (at least on our team, behind Doughty and Roy, and probably wouldn't replace Sean Walker if the latter were healthy). Kempe is 25, an RFA under team control for at least two more years, has 61 points in 125 games over the last two seasons, and is at worst a middle-6 forward. I don't think that even in our currently straitened situation, we'd trade Kempe for Holl and your 2022 second.


Possibly but Holl is better than anyone on here gives him credit for.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 11:18 a.m.
#12
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 22,105
Likes: 11,815
Quoting: GenXHockey
Kempe is better than ritchie. I don’t think you can claim he is better than nylander bunting kerfoot as you tried to point out earlier. Seems to be on par with Engvall this season despite playing top 6 minutes, but the season is still early.

walker is done for the season and Doughty is out for 6 weeks. I think Holl would fit the bill perfectly here. I wouldn’t say that roy certainly plays 82 games when Doughty returns.

I can’t see any other player on the kings that would fit for a trade for an rhd. I don’t think they want to move their 1st or even a 2nd in this draft. They certainly aren’t getting a top 4 rhd for less than that.

I think leafs have the depth to cover moving Holl but even then I have my reservations about moving him. That’s usually when the injuries start piling up.


I didn't mean for a nanosecond to imply that Kempe could lace William Nylander's skates. I was referring specifically to Bunting (who I think is going to be a great fit in Toronto), Kerfoot, Mikheyev, Ritchie and Engvall.

I don't see Holl as being a true top 4 defenseman. He'd be playing up for us only due to injuries. I'd put him on a par with Walker.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 11:21 a.m.
#13
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 22,105
Likes: 11,815
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
Possibly but Holl is better than anyone on here gives him credit for.


I'm not denying that Holl is a solid NHLer (NOT an "in-betweener" or a seventh D). I'd put him on a par with Sean Walker.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 11:41 a.m.
#14
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: OldNYIfan
I'm not denying that Holl is a solid NHLer (NOT an "in-betweener" or a seventh D). I'd put him on a par with Sean Walker.


I bet Holl bounces back to form. For LA though, does the aging core want to wait another year? Or will they pay a premium for RD help?
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 11:45 a.m.
#15
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 22,105
Likes: 11,815
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
I bet Holl bounces back to form. For LA though, does the aging core want to wait another year? Or will they pay a premium for RD help?


I think Holl is a fine stop-gap for us. It would make sense for us to acquire him. I just don't think that we should pay Kempe, a first or a second for him.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 12:08 p.m.
#16
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: OldNYIfan
I think Holl is a fine stop-gap for us. It would make sense for us to acquire him. I just don't think that we should pay Kempe, a first or a second for him.


I think Kempe is the lowest level asset in that list. I'd say Kempe for Holl straight up is a decent move.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 12:16 p.m.
#17
Joined: Mar. 2019
Posts: 1,008
Likes: 794
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
2 things,

One you definitely are undervaluing Holl. He hasn't been the best yet but he's definitely still a good player. Its been 8 games only. Couple that with the fact that Kempe hasn't ever been more than a 30 point winger, it's fairly even given the roles the players play on their team.

Secondly, your team has an old core that still wants to win. They won't likely feel good about wasting a year. Getting defensive help could be a huge help in turning this around and fighting for the playoffs in a wide open west.

Its a trade that makes a lot of sense. Not sure I'd do it but it's not one that overly favors either team. Fills holes on both sides


I hear your second point. But that core has been losing for years, and that's without one of them being the injury. Blake has shown little to no initiative to increase the speed of the rebuild for the sake of the core. Thats not a bad thing, from my point of view, just facts.

As far as your first point, I can't see Holl being anything more than a 3RD when Doughty is back. Roy is the Kings second best defenseman by a wide margin at this point.

Also, while the 30 point comment is technically true, it discounts the shortened season last year. He ended with 29 points in 52 games. That's a 20 goal, 40 point pace in an 82 game season. I can only imagine how that would increase playing for an offensive team like the Leafs, where he'd likely be on a line with JT and Nylander, or some such combo.

Regardless, the biggest piece is something that @OldNYIfan brought up, and that's contract status. Kempe's value comes in the fact that he's a RFA with team control on a phenomenal contract. The Leafs would be getting at least 3 years of him, likely more. Whereas Holl has only a year left of his contract and doesn't fit into the Kings plans outside of a stopgap for this year. Especially with the Kings RD pipeline of Clarke, Faber, Grans and Spence all soon to be pushing for spots.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 12:48 p.m.
#18
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: PuckLuck_77
I hear your second point. But that core has been losing for years, and that's without one of them being the injury. Blake has shown little to no initiative to increase the speed of the rebuild for the sake of the core. Thats not a bad thing, from my point of view, just facts.

As far as your first point, I can't see Holl being anything more than a 3RD when Doughty is back. Roy is the Kings second best defenseman by a wide margin at this point.

Also, while the 30 point comment is technically true, it discounts the shortened season last year. He ended with 29 points in 52 games. That's a 20 goal, 40 point pace in an 82 game season. I can only imagine how that would increase playing for an offensive team like the Leafs, where he'd likely be on a line with JT and Nylander, or some such combo.

Regardless, the biggest piece is something that OldNYIfan brought up, and that's contract status. Kempe's value comes in the fact that he's a RFA with team control on a phenomenal contract. The Leafs would be getting at least 3 years of him, likely more. Whereas Holl has only a year left of his contract and doesn't fit into the Kings plans outside of a stopgap for this year. Especially with the Kings RD pipeline of Clarke, Faber, Grans and Spence all soon to be pushing for spots.


Well you are going to need to pay something to get a RD. Holl could be available but it would have to solve the LW issue the Leafs look like they have. Perhaps a different winger could be sold instead.
PuckLuck_77 liked this.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 12:59 p.m.
#19
Joined: Mar. 2019
Posts: 1,008
Likes: 794
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
Well you are going to need to pay something to get a RD. Holl could be available but it would have to solve the LW issue the Leafs look like they have. Perhaps a different winger could be sold instead.


I dont disagree. My very original point was I just don't think the Kings are willing to part with players/prospects for a guy of Holl's talent, that's all. Mid round pick or picks? Sure, why not.

But unless the Leafs are willing to up what they're sending to LA with Holl, I just don't see a fit for a trade where Kempe is going out. If Kempe is on the outs by the trade deadline, the Kings will be looking for a 1st round pick for him. They won't panic this early into the season and send him out for less just to fill a short-term need. That's just bad business.

As far as other players? Sure we can talk about moving Grundstrom.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 1:17 p.m.
#20
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: PuckLuck_77
I dont disagree. My very original point was I just don't think the Kings are willing to part with players/prospects for a guy of Holl's talent, that's all. Mid round pick or picks? Sure, why not.

But unless the Leafs are willing to up what they're sending to LA with Holl, I just don't see a fit for a trade where Kempe is going out. If Kempe is on the outs by the trade deadline, the Kings will be looking for a 1st round pick for him. They won't panic this early into the season and send him out for less just to fill a short-term need. That's just bad business.

As far as other players? Sure we can talk about moving Grundstrom.


A 1 round pick for a guy who has never scored more than 40 points in a season is a ridiculous ask
Oct. 31, 2021 at 1:39 p.m.
#21
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 22,105
Likes: 11,815
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
A 1 round pick for a guy who has never scored more than 40 points in a season is a ridiculous ask


61 points in the 125 games of the last two attenuated seasons annualizes out to 40 points per season.

And that's on the offensively starved LA Kings.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 1:40 p.m.
#22
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: OldNYIfan
61 points in the 125 games of the last two attenuated seasons annualizes out to 40 points per season.


Asking a 1st round pick for a 40 point player is ridiculous.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 2:23 p.m.
#23
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 23,874
Likes: 7,509
Quoting: PuckLuck_77
I dont disagree. My very original point was I just don't think the Kings are willing to part with players/prospects for a guy of Holl's talent, that's all. Mid round pick or picks? Sure, why not.

But unless the Leafs are willing to up what they're sending to LA with Holl, I just don't see a fit for a trade where Kempe is going out. If Kempe is on the outs by the trade deadline, the Kings will be looking for a 1st round pick for him. They won't panic this early into the season and send him out for less just to fill a short-term need. That's just bad business.

As far as other players? Sure we can talk about moving Grundstrom.


So your plan is to give up nothing for a good top 4 defenceman. Good luck
Oct. 31, 2021 at 2:42 p.m.
#24
Joined: Mar. 2019
Posts: 1,008
Likes: 794
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
So your plan is to give up nothing for a good top 4 defenceman. Good luck


Just a friendly reminder, because I feel this discussion has been pretty good. This post/trade wasn't mine. I said from the start that the Kings are likely fine with staying pat and not trading for a defenseman. Especially if it costs an asset like Kempe or other exciting prospects.
Oct. 31, 2021 at 2:51 p.m.
#25
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 22,105
Likes: 11,815
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
Asking a 1st round pick for a 40 point player is ridiculous.


Blake Coleman: traded for a first-round draft pick and an A prospect at the TDL in 2020:

2017-2018 : 79 games, 25 points
2018-2019 : 78 games, 36 points
2019-2020 : 66 games, 32 points (annualizes out to just about 40 points)
Only in his one full year with Tampa Bay, which subtle evidence suggests was an above-average offensive team, did Coleman annualize well over 40 points.

I'm not quite sure how this degenerated into a dispute about whether Kempe is worth a first-round draft pick, but I'm still focused on whether trading him for Justin Holl is a fair exchange.
 
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