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Audition for Forward but selling everyone else

Created by: Billy739
Team: 2021-22 Montreal Canadiens
Initial Creation Date: Dec. 5, 2021
Published: Dec. 5, 2021
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
With so many young D in the mix and only a few spots to take
I feel its time to sell most D keeping Petry/Eddy around atleast another year as IR has made it tough to evaluate whether they'll fit into the rebuild or not(i think Eddy will and Petry should)

Jake Allen has value and should be moved when Price comes back.
Gorton always has a Veteran with a 22-27 year old goalie and is why NYR always had strong depth in net over the years from when Lundqvist was the young up and comer to those who backed him up in Talbot,Raanta,Georgiev,Shesterkin,ext

I feel the first peice Gorton will rebuild is the Dcore but only next year
For now giving the kids a chance has a benefit of also leaving us in the running for a high draft pick and while their consistency may waiver their effort should make these games more competitive at the very least.

Offense we're looking at mostly keeping in tact with a few exception with our bottom 6 players being cycled out for AHL forwards to get a chance to make a case for themselves. (Ylonen's being held down as Armia's here but is a top Laval plater adding Speed who i believe with thrive beside Byron on his return as he's broken in many young forwards)
Trades
1.
MTL
  1. Kravtsov, Vitali
Additional Details:
Anderson had a similar situation at the end of it was only worth a 2nd so late it was almost a 3rd round pick. MTL i feel will offer slightly more as Gortons here but not to much as its unsure if he'll sign in Russia after their playoffs in May
NYR
  1. Lehkonen, Artturi
  2. 2022 3rd round pick (MTL)
Additional Details:
MTL leaves Kravtsov in KHL hoping he'll hold off signing with them in the off season. He feels like he's been screwed around so leaving him be to establish a routine for the fist time this year might help a lot
2.
MTL
    Waive likely end up in Laval
    3.
    MTL
    1. Barrie, Tyson
    2. Yamamoto, Kailer
    3. 2023 3rd round pick (EDM)
    Additional Details:
    I feel this is a Pretty even swap
    Each team gets what they need to improve.
    For retaining to make it work out i think MTL gets a 3rd round pick in 2023 at a price EDM can live with
    EDM
    1. Armia, Joel
    2. Chiarot, Ben ($1,750,000 retained)
    Additional Details:
    Armia is a better fit for McDavid's line as he makes his money recovering rebounds and pucks along the boards cycling them out then driving the net for a screen.

    McJesus is already Dominating but upgrade your small speed based forward MTL would covet for a Power Forward with Speed

    Barrie for Chiarot makes the cap work in this deal but also gives Bouchard a chance to continue to rise as he already leads EDM D with Ceci behind him. This just gives Broberg a chance at a full time job
    4.
    MTL
    1. Murray, Ryan
    2. 2023 2nd round pick (COL)
    Additional Details:
    Wideman alone replaces Murray
    Kulak is a reliable 7th D upgrade for a COL team who's only got 1 D who's suited up for all 21 COL games(Johnson everyone else had IR days with Makar,Byram and Murray out the last few)

    Conditional 2nd round pick becomes a 1st in 2023 if Both Wideman and Kulak skate for atleast 3 Playoff games each.
    5.
    MTL
    1. Caulfield, Judd [Reserve List]
    2. 2024 4th round pick (PIT)
    Additional Details:
    NCAA Big bodied RW similar to Armia without the same offensive capabilities. Like Armia he's better off the puck then carrying it using his size and long stick to take up large sections of the ice.(bottom 6 guy with 2.5/10 odds to get to the NHL will need 3-4 season in Laval minimum but a power forward young enough to develop)
    PIT
    1. Perreault, Mathieu
    Additional Details:
    PIT gets a capable Winger who plays as a Secondary Center.
    He's got a Hat Trick this season as he was heating up he had an injury but is back and ready to play
    6.
    MTL
    1. 2022 4th round pick (SEA)
    Additional Details:
    Conditional 4th becomes a 3rd if either player plays 10 or more games for Seattle this seasons.
    SEA
    1. Montembeault, Samuel
    2. Murray, Ryan ($1,000,000 retained)
    7.
    MTL
      To save argument on here ill just trade him to BUF for a 2nd

      Tried taking less to help a Contender and get Allen a cup taking less. That said its not worth endulging TBL fans on this site who claim a Conditional 4th,Foote(#6/7 D) and Smith(buried) was too much

      Really though suggest some offers below
      If they're better ill update it
      Buyouts
      Retained Salary Transactions
      DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
      2022
      Logo of the CAR
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the ANA
      Logo of the CAR
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the TBL
      Logo of the SEA
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the STL
      2023
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the COL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the EDM
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      2024
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the PIT
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      Logo of the MTL
      ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
      22$81,500,000$67,455,060$597,561$1,175,000$14,044,940
      Left WingCentreRight Wing
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $5,500,000$5,500,000
      LW, RW
      M-NTC
      UFA - 2
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $4,450,000$4,450,000
      C
      UFA - 4
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $5,500,000$5,500,000
      RW, LW
      M-NTC
      UFA - 6
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $4,500,000$4,500,000
      LW
      UFA - 3
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $863,333$863,333 (Performance Bonus$537,500$538K)
      C
      UFA - 1
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $6,500,000$6,500,000
      RW, LW
      M-NTC, NMC
      UFA - 6
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $2,125,000$2,125,000
      RW, LW
      UFA - 3
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $750,000$750,000
      C
      UFA - 1
      Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
      $1,175,000$1,175,000
      RW
      RFA - 1
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $3,400,000$3,400,000
      LW, RW
      UFA - 2
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $750,000$750,000
      C, LW
      UFA - 2
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $880,833$880,833
      RW, LW
      RFA - 2
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $750,000$750,000
      LW, RW
      UFA - 1
      Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $875,000$875,000
      LD/RD
      M-NTC
      UFA - 3
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $2,343,750$2,343,750
      RD
      M-NTC, NMC
      UFA - 4
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $10,500,000$10,500,000
      G
      NMC
      UFA - 5
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $894,167$894,167 (Performance Bonus$637,500$638K)
      LD
      RFA - 1
      Logo of the Edmonton Oilers
      $4,500,000$4,500,000
      RD
      UFA - 3
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $880,833$880,833
      G
      RFA - 1
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $750,000$750,000
      LD/RD
      UFA - 1
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $3,500,000$3,500,000
      RD
      UFA - 4
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $761,250$761,250
      LD/RD
      RFA - 1
      ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
      Logo of the Montreal Canadiens
      $7,857,143$7,857,143
      RD
      UFA - 5

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      Dec. 5, 2021 at 8:51 a.m.
      #1
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      TB doesn't have the cap space, need ,or desire for Allen and they certainly aren't giving up one of their only three RD signed next year that is NHL ready for him. Especially one on such a club friendly contact. Elliot is playing a lot better than the numbers indicate easy pass.
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 9:02 a.m.
      #2
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      Billy739
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      Really you put value on a 7th D
      Alright

      Its not like i acquired him to be a top 4 guy
      I have VERY little faith he'll ever be more then what he is
      That said since we lost Juulsen and Fleury we're missing a big bodied RD in that role

      I just looked at it as MTL can retain the Appropriate Salary if TBL cant make it work but they'd have to offer some value.
      Its not like i took anything good at all just a buried contract a depth d and a late pick

      But done its removed
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 9:08 a.m.
      #3
      mokumboi
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      You're expecting too much return on all of these trades (except the SEA trade, which would basically be a gift if they weren't already swimming in LD).

      And btw... Yamamoto plays on Drai's line, not on McD's.
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 9:23 a.m.
      #4
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      None of these deals address the issues around the Habs.

      1. Barrie is a puck moving D, but this is far more needed on the left side. After this deal, now you have Marc Savard playing 3rd pairing minutes at $3.5million per. Not good cap management. Highly doubt Yakamoto moves anyway..... even beyond that, the package for he and Barrie is VERY VERY light.

      2. RW is still overloaded. Should be looking too early Gallagher or Anderson for a C. Especially with that dream of landing Yakamoto.

      3. Habs need a 2C. Full stop.

      4. Moving Kulak and Chariot for an expiring contract is HORRIBLE asset management. Kulak lands a mid round pick, Chariot should land a late 2nd at best.

      You: Ryan Murray. 🤦‍♂️..... whose days as a puck moving D option have sailed to boot.

      No. No. No.
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 9:25 a.m.
      #5
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      Billy739
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      Quoting: mokumboi
      You're expecting too much return on all of these trades (except the SEA trade, which would basically be a gift if they weren't already swimming in LD).

      And btw... Yamamoto plays on Drai's line, not on McD's.


      My bad i though he got promoted when Archibalds heart condition came up
      In either case the Context of the statement even if it was with Dri instead remains valid.
      The more pucks a guy like Armia can cycle them and the more screens he can provide the better.

      If MTL didnt have an Armia replacement on standby and Anderson already here long term we wouldnt be selling him
      That said our team does value speedy forwards like Yamamoto and while Armia if very fast its only in a straight line with no where near the Agility of a Yammamoto


      As far as fair Value its TDL season and Value's change based on Demand
      Its like any market if its a Buyers Market the teams wont get anything
      But if its a Sellers Market like it is the last couple years especially then these are actually below value.

      Example MTL trade with TML for Plekanec.
      Everyone on here said Plekky wouldnt get a 4th he'd be lucky to get us a 5th rounder as he was struggling hard.
      But there was only 3 Centers with dominate faceoff numbers that year and after i think it was Hanzal got a Prospects ,1st ,2nd and a 4th
      Plekkanec price went way up to a 2nd round pick and 2 prospects MTL flipped for Kulak

      Context matters in a Capitalist market 100% of the time with no exceptions.
      Context is here most of these trades are under the market value of similar players moved last year
      The only way your statement holds water is if you can prove that this is a Buyers market (which you cant, to many injuries piling up plus Covid issues coupled with not Taxi Squad safety net its 100% a Sellers Market)
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 9:46 a.m.
      #6
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      I can see why TB fans wouldn't be interested in Allen, Vasilevskiy is their guy already he is arguably the best goalie in the NHL.

      PIT seems like a better fit to me, Jarry is playing exceptionally well this year but he had a bad playoffs last year and that will put doubt in management's head. DeSmith is really struggling, no wins in 4 games this year and he has -5.33 GSAx (in only 4 games that's 1.33 more goals allowed than an average goalie would be expected to allow per game). If not PIT than EDM and COL are also teams to follow, their goalie situations are less than ideal.
      Billy739 liked this.
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 10:02 a.m.
      #7
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      Billy739
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      Quoting: swinny
      None of these deals address the issues around the Habs.

      1. Barrie is a puck moving D, but this is far more needed on the left side. After this deal, now you have Marc Savard playing 3rd pairing minutes at $3.5million per. Not good cap management. Highly doubt Yakamoto moves anyway..... even beyond that, the package for he and Barrie is VERY VERY light.

      2. RW is still overloaded. Should be looking too early Gallagher or Anderson for a C. Especially with that dream of landing Yakamoto.

      3. Habs need a 2C. Full stop.

      4. Moving Kulak and Chariot for an expiring contract is HORRIBLE asset management. Kulak lands a mid round pick, Chariot should land a late 2nd at best.

      You: Ryan Murray. 🤦‍♂️..... whose days as a puck moving D option have sailed to boot.

      No. No. No.


      1.Barrie was a way to get Value in return but like Petry and Eddy have until next years TDL to prove they fit it.
      Most of the young D we have coming up are LD so acquiring one is contradictory to what we need.
      These are the 4 young LD who will be competing for 3 LD spots of which i doubt any will push Eddy out
      -Romanov
      -Norlinder
      -Ghule
      -Harris

      That's not including our prospects excelling that arent close to pro yet with 2- 3 years left in NCAA/Junior
      -Struble (Shea Weber 2.0 in every regard but his shot as its not quite as hard or accurate but still good)
      - Trudeau (kinda reminds me of Shattenkirk early on)
      -Xhekaj (Like Alexi Emelin type player known for hitting/blocking shots but can finish fights even though he doesnt like getting into them)

      We had 1 credible RD prospect and even if he was superman he's been bullied to the point i dont think the Media will allow him to have a career.
      Its ironic really as they slander him with terms like "sex offender" but was never tried for a Sex Crime but under laws they use to keep Paparazi under control.
      Until the kid offs himself they'll never let go and then they moment he does they'll condemn bullying without a hit of Irony.

      We dont need LD
      We need strong RD to play with them until they become Regulars no longer considered noobs
      Once a RD steps up we can promote them and remove a Petry,Savard or Barrie.

      Issue is our best RD and only one capable of reasonably making it to the NHL in the next 2 years is Mailloux meaning minimum 1-3 years we need a RD core.
      Otherwise were just hanging our young RD out to dry like we're BUF or ARZ

      2. Habs are rebuilding we dont need a 2C period
      If we were contending you'd be 100% onto something and most of my trades pre Gorton targets 2C /2nd pair RD
      Gorton coming in means saying everyone is being auditioned and the coach is safe atleast this year says no 2nd C

      Its Gorton saying Suzuki/Dvorak/Poehling/Evans have a chance to solidify themselves in 1/4 spots.
      Those who cant will be replaced or moved to wing.

      What we need is what we gave Danault who had similar numbers as Evans before his first season at Center on 3rd line (Byron/Pacioretty and a Shaw)
      Having a Goal scorer on his Wing coupled with a all around Forward who plays as a Secondary Center like Shaw (Without Shaw no Danualt,or Domi on the levels we seen them he was huge for them)

      3. They werent traded alone for a reason
      Barrie will get more then Chiarot would have when we sell him
      Until then he'll fill a big hole with Weber and now Petry out on IR.

      Kulak got more then he would have alone
      Rather then 2 mid round picks we got a 2nd round pick and a conditional 4th after trading Murray.
      That's more then either gets by themselves . . . . . . . . . . .

      Murray went to a team struggling with consistency and only 5/7 D playing well
      they got Fleury and Lauzon who could use some support and Borgen isnt it.
      He's a cheap pending UFA who's going to a non contender with low expectations
      The idea for Murray in Seattle is to take some pressure off the younger guys thats it
      MTL only acquired him to maximize their return and make the cap work with COL
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 10:14 a.m.
      #8
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      Billy739
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      Quoting: Shanesaw9
      I can see why TB fans wouldn't be interested in Allen, Vasilevskiy is their guy already he is arguably the best goalie in the NHL.

      PIT seems like a better fit to me, Jarry is playing exceptionally well this year but he had a bad playoffs last year and that will put doubt in management's head. DeSmith is really struggling, no wins in 4 games this year and he has -5.33 GSAx (in only 4 games that's 1.33 more goals allowed than an average goalie would be expected to allow per game). If not PIT than EDM and COL are also teams to follow, their goalie situations are less than ideal.

      I agree PIT makes a lot of sense
      I just wasnt sure if you guys had decided on Selling or Buying this year
      BOS/CBJ are right on PIT tail for that last Wildcard spot with 2-3 games in hand each

      With all the injuries and such i just thought you might be selling this year
      But honestly it makes sense Jarry/Allen could put them over until Malkins back
      once Malkin/Crosby are back together leading each top 6 and PP unit line PIT dominates.

      I guess i just counted them out too early
      Its why i only did a Perrault trade with PIT thinking he'd re-sign there for a run next year(i want him to win a cup as he's a good leader type)
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 10:48 a.m.
      #9
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      Not a bad perspective on alot of things. Might be over valuing a few trades there but that's normal for everyone, I do it all the time too. When it comes to Cal Foote, he may be a 6/7 D right now, but it's also his first year in the nhl. I just think they are trying to develop him properly and he could eventually be a good player in the future. He's also cheap and signed for next year.
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 11:26 a.m.
      #10
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      Quoting: Billy739
      1.Barrie was a way to get Value in return but like Petry and Eddy have until next years TDL to prove they fit it.
      Most of the young D we have coming up are LD so acquiring one is contradictory to what we need.
      These are the 4 young LD who will be competing for 3 LD spots of which i doubt any will push Eddy out
      -Romanov
      -Norlinder
      -Ghule
      -Harris

      That's not including our prospects excelling that arent close to pro yet with 2- 3 years left in NCAA/Junior
      -Struble (Shea Weber 2.0 in every regard but his shot as its not quite as hard or accurate but still good)
      - Trudeau (kinda reminds me of Shattenkirk early on)
      -Xhekaj (Like Alexi Emelin type player known for hitting/blocking shots but can finish fights even though he doesnt like getting into them)

      We had 1 credible RD prospect and even if he was superman he's been bullied to the point i dont think the Media will allow him to have a career.
      Its ironic really as they slander him with terms like "sex offender" but was never tried for a Sex Crime but under laws they use to keep Paparazi under control.
      Until the kid offs himself they'll never let go and then they moment he does they'll condemn bullying without a hit of Irony.

      We dont need LD
      We need strong RD to play with them until they become Regulars no longer considered noobs
      Once a RD steps up we can promote them and remove a Petry,Savard or Barrie.

      Issue is our best RD and only one capable of reasonably making it to the NHL in the next 2 years is Mailloux meaning minimum 1-3 years we need a RD core.
      Otherwise were just hanging our young RD out to dry like we're BUF or ARZ

      2. Habs are rebuilding we dont need a 2C period
      If we were contending you'd be 100% onto something and most of my trades pre Gorton targets 2C /2nd pair RD
      Gorton coming in means saying everyone is being auditioned and the coach is safe atleast this year says no 2nd C

      Its Gorton saying Suzuki/Dvorak/Poehling/Evans have a chance to solidify themselves in 1/4 spots.
      Those who cant will be replaced or moved to wing.

      What we need is what we gave Danault who had similar numbers as Evans before his first season at Center on 3rd line (Byron/Pacioretty and a Shaw)
      Having a Goal scorer on his Wing coupled with a all around Forward who plays as a Secondary Center like Shaw (Without Shaw no Danualt,or Domi on the levels we seen them he was huge for them)

      3. They werent traded alone for a reason
      Barrie will get more then Chiarot would have when we sell him
      Until then he'll fill a big hole with Weber and now Petry out on IR.

      Kulak got more then he would have alone
      Rather then 2 mid round picks we got a 2nd round pick and a conditional 4th after trading Murray.
      That's more then either gets by themselves . . . . . . . . . . .

      Murray went to a team struggling with consistency and only 5/7 D playing well
      they got Fleury and Lauzon who could use some support and Borgen isnt it.
      He's a cheap pending UFA who's going to a non contender with low expectations
      The idea for Murray in Seattle is to take some pressure off the younger guys thats it
      MTL only acquired him to maximize their return and make the cap work with COL


      Not buying what your selling.

      The Habs front office was gutted for a reason. Drafting has been atrocious at best. You can't sell drafted asset when you guys just turned the guy who did the work. There is a reason he is gone.

      Romanov I like. Guhle is 2-3 years away. Norlander is alright, but doesn't wow me.

      You do need a 2C that fits the young core. Dvorak isn't it. Maybe a 2LW, but not a 2C. Plays a great two way game, but I would want more production from that position, using Dvorak on LW as a defensive presence who can put up 40 points. They don't grow on trees, but a guy like a Gabe Valardi or Dylan Strome can be had (later for pennies on the dollar), and worth a look.
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 11:33 a.m.
      #11
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      You want a conditional 1st for Wideman and Kulak? I'd maybe give a 4th and a 5th for them...
      coga16 liked this.
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 11:55 a.m.
      #12
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      Kulak and Wideman are not worth a conditional 1st, you might get a couple 3rd round picks for them
      never mind moving a better dman in Murray for them. So avs are paying a 1st to downgrade on D?
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 12:08 p.m.
      #13
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      Billy739
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      Quoting: UpsideDownQue
      You want a conditional 1st for Wideman and Kulak? I'd maybe give a 4th and a 5th for them...


      Wideman alone is an Upgrade on Murray who is a cap dump they need to make to acquire anyone
      I can gladly sell them wideman for a late pick but then they have to find a way to move Murray which i expected COL fans to cry about as they're lazy by choice
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 12:18 p.m.
      #14
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      Quoting: Billy739
      Wideman alone is an Upgrade on Murray who is a cap dump they need to make to acquire anyone
      I can gladly sell them wideman for a late pick but then they have to find a way to move Murray which i expected COL fans to cry about as they're lazy by choice


      Ok...

      Your valuation is still way off. Also not sure why you think they would need to move Murray to add a 750k cap hit in Wideman
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 12:26 p.m.
      #15
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      Billy739
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      Quoting: swinny
      Not buying what your selling.

      The Habs front office was gutted for a reason. Drafting has been atrocious at best. You can't sell drafted asset when you guys just turned the guy who did the work. There is a reason he is gone.

      Romanov I like. Guhle is 2-3 years away. Norlander is alright, but doesn't wow me.

      You do need a 2C that fits the young core. Dvorak isn't it. Maybe a 2LW, but not a 2C. Plays a great two way game, but I would want more production from that position, using Dvorak on LW as a defensive presence who can put up 40 points. They don't grow on trees, but a guy like a Gabe Valardi or Dylan Strome can be had (later for pennies on the dollar), and worth a look.


      Dvorak has been great
      He's done more in the PIT game then Suzuki the last 11 games
      7 points in the past 10 games isnt #1 line good but its 100% good enough for 2nd C (almost as much as Danault all year)

      Also you're saying "lets take last years Top 10 Faceoff Center and move him to Wing" and expecting me not to mock you
      that's brave for sure

      Vlardi cant be had for pennies on the dollar
      We tried getting him different time there was always a cost
      Closest we got was Patches deal he declined and we got Suzuki instead.

      Strome could be an option but what we need is help for Dvorak who's the only real Faceoff Center taking Defensive Zone Faceoffs.
      How the Fhappy^ you expect him to score when he's being put on DZ assignment because all the rookie Centers can take them?

      The fix is pretty easy honestly
      Acquire a Cizikas or Sissons type.
      They gave their Center Core time to Grow as they're good on Faceoffs and Contribute as probably the 2 best 4th line Centers of the past 5 years consistently.

      Dvorak and Sissons lets say take bulk faceoffs with Sissons handling a large amount of the DZ faceoffs.
      This gives Dvorak more to in the OZ
      Given he out scored all players in ARZ the past 2 years he was there including Kessel,Keller,Garland,ext i'd say that's what they had we dont
      They never leave their Centers this screwed whether its Brassard,Richardson,Hanzal,Vermette,ext they always have someone cover Bulk Defensive Zone Faceoffs as they're the most difficult
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 12:26 p.m.
      #16
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      Quoting: Billy739
      i didnt try to sell you drafted assets you rube i listed the ones we have.

      We were gutted for a reason yes but only a Challenged person pretends that since Eric Crawford was stolen from VAN in 2017 that he hasnt cleaned up at each draft since.
      Even his Depth picks are already producing more then the 2012-2016 picks Timmons ran. Timmons ran the draft before then he was promoted to Managing it while Crawford ran it.
      There's a reason why Eric Crawford wasnt fired and most of those names listed are why

      Being Stupid is a Choice
      If you have a question ask
      But if you just regergitate stuff others say without following it up well that's just brainless chatter
      I dont contribute to that type of gossip


      Sounds like revisionist history. But ok.

      I will maintain you are overvalueing the prospects here (Romanov and Caufield are exceptions to this). But after that, not sure there is a game changer in that group.

      Name calling and insults aren't going to move me off my position here.

      Here are the Habs in a nut shell:

      1. There is a young core up front (Suzuki, Caufueld for sure, solid support players in Dvorak and Lehkonen, and I will include Drouin). Need to build around that, and there isn't much going on in the system that convinces me that is going to be internal.

      2. There is one player on the blueline for sure: Romanov..... who reminds me more of a Ron Hainsey than a Chris Chelios. Meaning, his ability to move the puck is there, his ability to defend is top notch. He isn't the guy I would be banking on for the PP. Guhle I project as a solid two way D, top 4. But it's early in his development. Norlander is a stay at home guy.

      Point is, out of the while group, there is no one to drive offense from the back end.

      That has been an issue for years, and it remains a system issue imo.

      3. Cap mismanagement

      Hoffman was a $4.5 million misallocation of funds (all together Habs fans.... 2C!) Armia playing 4th line minutes is a crime against the Hockey Gods. But Caufueld is top line material, and Gallagher and Anderson's contract dictate where they play.

      Move one of Anderson or Gallagher and get a top 4 LD that can maybe compliment Petry on the left side. Just a thought. But I am a rube.🤣
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 12:32 p.m.
      #17
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      Billy739
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      Quoting: UpsideDownQue
      Ok...

      Your valuation is still way off. Also not sure why you think they would need to move Murray to add a 750k cap hit in Wideman


      It was also about giving a Dcore that has Half their skaters sitting out injured right now
      Pretty sure i even Emphasized the Only D they have to skate for all games is Johnson one of their bottom guys.
      Kulak offered them someone who isnt injury prone for someone who is

      It left them a better team and MTL worse
      the only way this baffles someone is if they didnt open up COL long term projected roster and seen how these guys factor in.
      COL has been a favorite to win for years but always falls short as when injuries challenge their depth they get eliminated.
      this is a cheap TDL cost in Context to the values of the last 5 TDL (if you look them up you'll see )

      I dont try to base trades on this site's fans version of reality as in my experience most of you are wrong 9.99/10 times but claim to be always right.
      I look back to find context in past TDL and how that effected the Trade Value (TDL comes every year but people are still confused by it somehow lol )
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 12:33 p.m.
      #18
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      Quoting: Billy739
      Dvorak has been great
      He's done more in the PIT game then Suzuki the last 11 games
      7 points in the past 10 games isnt #1 line good but its 100% good enough for 2nd C (almost as much as Danault all year)

      Also you're saying "lets take last years Top 10 Faceoff Center and move him to Wing" and expecting me not to mock you
      that's brave for sure

      Vlardi cant be had for pennies on the dollar
      We tried getting him different time there was always a cost
      Closest we got was Patches deal he declined and we got Suzuki instead.

      Strome could be an option but what we need is help for Dvorak who's the only real Faceoff Center taking Defensive Zone Faceoffs.
      How the Fhappy^ you expect him to score when he's being put on DZ assignment because all the rookie Centers can take them?

      The fix is pretty easy honestly
      Acquire a Cizikas or Sissons type.
      They gave their Center Core time to Grow as they're good on Faceoffs and Contribute as probably the 2 best 4th line Centers of the past 5 years consistently.

      Dvorak and Sissons lets say take bulk faceoffs with Sissons handling a large amount of the DZ faceoffs.
      This gives Dvorak more to in the OZ
      Given he out scored all players in ARZ the past 2 years he was there including Kessel,Keller,Garland,ext i'd say that's what they had we dont
      They never leave their Centers this screwed whether its Brassard,Richardson,Hanzal,Vermette,ext they always have someone cover Bulk Defensive Zone Faceoffs as they're the most difficult


      I think your expectations of Dvorak are off.

      I love the guy. Don't get me wrong. But, he just isn't a 2C. Nothing saying he doesn't take key draws, but, having him flip to the LW I think compliments his game better. Think Draistal taking the face off then flipping positions with McJesus. Edmonton did it. It worked well.

      Dvorak is Mike Ricci. Not quite good enough to be a 2C, too good to be a 3C.

      Vilardi: I never said he could be had for pennies on the dollar. My exact words were "the latter could be had for pennies on the dollar" - directly referring to Strome. Vilardi would be a great pick up, but the asset cost makes it a deal I would probably not do.

      Habs issues really lie in a blueline of pylons (I concede Romanov and Petey) can skate, and cap mismanagement on the wings.

      Gotta move that money to positions of need.
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 12:38 p.m.
      #19
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      Quoting: Billy739
      It was also about giving a Dcore that has Half their skaters sitting out injured right now
      Pretty sure i even Emphasized the Only D they have to skate for all games is Johnson one of their bottom guys.
      Kulak offered them someone who isnt injury prone for someone who is

      It left them a better team and MTL worse
      the only way this baffles someone is if they didnt open up COL long term projected roster and seen how these guys factor in.
      COL has been a favorite to win for years but always falls short as when injuries challenge their depth they get eliminated.
      this is a cheap TDL cost in Context to the values of the last 5 TDL (if you look them up you'll see )

      I dont try to base trades on this site's fans version of reality as in my experience most of you are wrong 9.99/10 times but claim to be always right.
      I look back to find context in past TDL and how that effected the Trade Value (TDL comes every year but people are still confused by it somehow lol )


      Just because there are injuries doesnt mean you should get a conditional 1st instead of late round picks for your depth players... What past trades do you think are comparable here? Past TDL moves have shown that depth D men are worth late picks:

      Nemeth for a 4th
      Benn for a 6th
      Gudbrandon for AHLer and a 7th
      Gustafsson for a 7th
      Hutton for a 5th
      Kulikov for a 4th
      Forbort for a 4th
      Del Zotto for a 6th
      Beaulieu for a 6th

      Those are the trades you should be looking at here as comparables
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 1:26 p.m.
      #20
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      Billy739
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      Quoting: UpsideDownQue
      Just because there are injuries doesnt mean you should get a conditional 1st instead of late round picks for your depth players... What past trades do you think are comparable here? Past TDL moves have shown that depth D men are worth late picks:

      Nemeth for a 4th
      Benn for a 6th
      Gudbrandon for AHLer and a 7th
      Gustafsson for a 7th
      Hutton for a 5th
      Kulikov for a 4th
      Forbort for a 4th
      Del Zotto for a 6th
      Beaulieu for a 6th

      Those are the trades you should be looking at here as comparables


      If neither was producing you might be right
      But they are

      Its the difference between BUF flipping us Scandella for a 4th
      Then MTL playing Scandella for what 2 months then flipping him for a 2nd and a 4th because he was producing

      Wideman has 3 points in his past 5 games and 9 points on the seasons as a 6th/7th D
      Kulak is less offensively inclined but a better overall player capable of regular minutes if injuries happen

      Thats as many points as Scandella had in his 20 game detour here in just 5 games for Wideman
      If this year was a Buyers market you might have a point
      But this year there's more people still in the playoff picture then completely out and those people discounted last month are in the mix now in some cases.


      Its why the TDL is so exciting
      Scandella wasnt worth a 2nd and 4th
      Plekky wasnt worth a 2nd and 2 AHL prospects
      Hanzal wasnt worth a 1st ,2nd and a 4th but got it


      This year there is not a ton of D available especially not thats producing.
      Look at the teams you think are going to be selling
      Look at the players you think will be available
      Then think about the Ratio of Playoff hopefull teams buying
      Maybe then you're see the Context of Reality

      What you did was show up to Relator and go
      "i want this house for 50k " without factoring in any variables like Locations ,Land size, Construction date ,ext
      Just because you dont get it doesnt mean the Realitor lowers the price.
      It just means she'll tell others to avoid dealing with you
      Dec. 5, 2021 at 2:12 p.m.
      #21
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      Edited Dec. 5, 2021 at 3:24 p.m.
      Quoting: Billy739
      If neither was producing you might be right
      But they are

      Its the difference between BUF flipping us Scandella for a 4th
      Then MTL playing Scandella for what 2 months then flipping him for a 2nd and a 4th because he was producing

      Wideman has 3 points in his past 5 games and 9 points on the seasons as a 6th/7th D
      Kulak is less offensively inclined but a better overall player capable of regular minutes if injuries happen

      Thats as many points as Scandella had in his 20 game detour here in just 5 games for Wideman
      If this year was a Buyers market you might have a point
      But this year there's more people still in the playoff picture then completely out and those people discounted last month are in the mix now in some cases.


      Its why the TDL is so exciting
      Scandella wasnt worth a 2nd and 4th
      Plekky wasnt worth a 2nd and 2 AHL prospects
      Hanzal wasnt worth a 1st ,2nd and a 4th but got it


      This year there is not a ton of D available especially not thats producing.
      Look at the teams you think are going to be selling
      Look at the players you think will be available
      Then think about the Ratio of Playoff hopefull teams buying
      Maybe then you're see the Context of Reality

      What you did was show up to Relator and go
      "i want this house for 50k " without factoring in any variables like Locations ,Land size, Construction date ,ext
      Just because you dont get it doesnt mean the Realitor lowers the price.
      It just means she'll tell others to avoid dealing with you


      You got Scandella for cheap cause he came with a 4M cap hit and flipped him for more cause you retained 50%, not because he magically became better/more valuable playing in MTL. Is that the only comparable you have? One with retention that doesnt match this scenario? I can keep adding more comparables to the list in my last comment, its not very hard to find past trades involving depth D men for late picks

      Bringing up point production is kinda weird for a D man but if you really want a comparable depth D man producing some offense then just look at Gustafsson. He had 26 points in 59 games for CHI and was traded to CGY for a 3rd, then the next season had 10 points in 24 games for PHI and was traded with 50% retention for a 7th... Even in the best case scenario the top comparable here would be a 3rd in return for Wideman, which is still on the high end, not a conditional 1st

      Wideman and Kulak are dime a dozen players. If the Avs move a 1st for someone it will be for a much better player that one of those guys

      If you are insisting on getting a conditional 1st for them then good luck with that, but Sakic and any other competent GM would go find another depth D man elsewhere for a fraction of the price
       
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